The book of Job, my favorite book.

[ZNP]

It is difficult to agree with your perspective on this story. I do agree with you that Job does learn (and grow) as a result of enduring his ordeal. That seems very clear no matter what. However, the other extrapolations don't really seem to work.

1. First of all, the main conflict of the story is between God and satan, not God and Job. Satan has challenged God's relationship with His creation, and in the end satan is proven wrong because Job does not break faith and curse God as satan claimed he would. God uses Job to prove that God's relationship with His creation is relational, not transactional.

2. You speculate that Job may have been thinking of himself as perfect and upright, but where does it say anything like this in the story? It's complete conjecture. Also, if Job is full of pride, then that would be sin, right? But you already stated you agreed with verse 8 where God calls Job blameless. So which is it? These ideas in your post are contradictory.

3. You state it is clear God is dealing with Job's pride. How is that clear? Did you notice that Job is repeatedly calling out to God, seeking Him, and deeply desires to have his relationship with God restored all throughout the story? Job is coming through all of the details of his life trying to see what he got wrong and how he can be in fellowship with God again. He actively asks God to show him his sin. Does that sound like a proud person to you?

4. Have you read the book of James in the NT? The assessment of Job by James in verse 5:11 is about Job's endurance and perseverance. His assessment is not about Job learning his lesson due to his pride. Have you ever considered this assessment by James?

5. Can you respond to these two verses? In Job 2:3 God tells satan, "...thou movedst Me against him, to destroy him without cause." In Job 42:11 it says, "...and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him". What do you say to these two verses?

First I noticed that Job's prayer was quite different from what Jesus taught the disciples to pray. The Lord does not tell us to pray for others in the event that they may have sinned, rather he tells us to pray that we would not be led into temptation but delivered from evil. So when I considered that the prayer came across to me as self righteous and arrogant.

Second, I was reading these verses in Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And it hit me, Jesus does not dispute the truth of this. Apparently God hears people praying this way to him or at the very least thinking these thoughts since God knows the heart.

So then I thought suppose Job thought the following:

there is none like me in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

That may seem like conjecture, but based on Luke 18 there are people who think this way, and many of them are very likely Christians. After all it is implied in the phrase "Make America Great Again".

Third, it has always bothered me that the teaching on this is that Job was righteous but God just decided to "test" him. A euphemism for having his family killed, his business destroyed, and him diseased. That portrayal of God is contrary to all that I know from the Bible. God is righteous, He is a covenant God. In that covenant it includes God delivering us from evil, not delivering us to evil. However, if Luke 18:11 applies to Job then the Lord has explained. We are justified by faith, not by works. Job thought he was justified by all that he was and the Lord tells us in Luke 18 that this pharisee did not go from this prayer justified. That would explain God removing the hedge of protection.

Fourth, the second thing that has always bothered me about typical expositions on Job is what was the point? Where was the correction? The book clearly lets you know that Job was corrected by God, and once he was corrected then the blessing returned. If you read what God tells Job He is telling him that he is not God, he can't do anything without God, and he does not understand how God has built the earth and by extension how He builds a man.

Fifth, then this also reconciles the issue with righteousness. Is God righteous for putting the spotlight onto Job and directing Satan to take a closer look at him, and even allowing all the harm that came to him to come to him? If God is simply agreeing with Job, if it were Job that had thought there was no one like him, that he eschews evil, and he is upright and perfect. In that case Job cannot complain if God agrees with him. If Job is boasting to God in his prayers then surely God can also boast to Satan about Job.

Most of the typical exposition on Job that I am familiar with portrays a capricious God and portrays Job as simply a pawn for God and Satan to toy with.

In Job 40 we hear "wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?". That is a good description of typical exposition on Job. If Job is righteous then by extension you can condemn God. They don't use that word, they use "trial" and "testing" etc. But ultimately it is God who is guilty and Job is righteous.

In chapter 41 God spends the entire chapter telling Job about Leviathan. Why? I never heard anyone explain it and yet it is crystal clear, "he is a king over all the children of pride." That is the conclusion, God tells us that. What is the point if he isn't warning Job about pride and if the book is not simply an example of how Leviathan is the king over all the children of pride. That tells me that children of pride are no longer under the reign of Jesus but under the reign of Satan. Not that different than Peter telling us to be humbled under the mighty hand of God.

Then in chapter 42 Job says "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." Isn't that weird? How is it that Job knows that God knows all our thoughts? There is nothing in the book of Job talking about Job reading our thoughts unless it is in chapter 1 that Job was the one thinking proud thoughts and God simply repeated them to Satan. But Job continues "therefore have I uttered that I understood not". When? God commends Job for what he said to his friends. In fact it continues with God saying "My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." Clearly Job spoke the thing that is right to the friends, so what is he referring to about having uttered that I understood not? Once again, I think this refers to the boastful thoughts and prayers.

I don't think it is fair to call this conjecture. On the contrary I think it is consistent with the whole Bible and there is plenty in Job to lead one to this interpretation.

 

[PaulThomson]

Sure. Thank you for the question. There are unanswered questions and at times a lack of acknowledgement of basic facts in the story that I have encountered from others. I'll share some here:

1. Have you noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? God explicitly affirms Job, both at the beginning and the end of this story, but where is there any explicit affirmation of Elihu by anyone?

2. It clearly says four times that Elihu is burning with anger. This is what launches him into his speeches. If Elihu is there to "help" Job, how does delivering his speech while burning with anger going to benefit Job? How is his burning anger supposed to be helpful?

3. In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?

4. In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?

5. Have you noticed that the way Elihu speaks to Job is completely different than how God speaks to Job? Elihu's speeches toward Job are dominated by harsh statements and accusations. His words are full of harsh judgment and criticism. Comparatively, the majority of the way God speaks to Job is in the form of questions. Did you notice that?

6. In Job 35:2 Elihu accuses Job of saying that his righteousness is more than God's. Where does Job say this? I do read in chapter 9 where Job explicitly says the exact opposite of this accusation, but can you point to where Job says what Elihu is claiming?

7. In Job 36:4 Elihu says that one who is "perfect in knowledge" is with them, referring to himself. Then in Job 37:16 Elihu refers to God as perfect in knowledge. So Elihu is equating himself with God here. Did you notice that? Does that sound right to you? Isn't it strange that even Jesus Christ Himself when He walked the earth "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" as it states in Philippians 2. Do you support this claim of Elihu about himself?

8. Elihu claims that he will teach Job wisdom. Can you explain what wisdom Elihu has to offer that Job does not already have? Did you know that the chiastic structure of Hebrew poetry puts the most important part of its text in the middle? In this case that is chapter 28 and is attributed to Job. The final line in that chapter is the bullet point for the entire story, namely, "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." So, again, what wisdom does Elihu have that he needs to teach Job, as he claims?

I have more but I'll tie pause here. Thanks again for the question.

OK. Let's look at these.

1. 1. Have you noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? God explicitly affirms Job, both at the beginning and the end of this story, but where is there any explicit affirmation of Elihu by anyone?

You are arguing from silence, which is a logical fallacy. That something is not mentioned is not evidence that it is not present.

2. It clearly says four times that Elihu is burning with anger. This is what launches him into his speeches. If Elihu is there to "help" Job, how does delivering his speech while burning with anger going to benefit Job? How is his burning anger supposed to be helpful?

I only counted two times: Job 32:2 and 32:5. However, regardless of how many times, righteous indignation is a godly response to injustice.

Jhn 2:14
And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Jhn 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Jhn 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

 

[PaulThomson]

Sure. Thank you for the question. There are unanswered questions and at times a lack of acknowledgement of basic facts in the story that I have encountered from others. I'll share some here:

3. In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?

4. In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?

So, regarding your two objections #3 and #4 against Elihu.

3. In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?

4. In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?

Let's take these in reverse order to your order, but as they appear in scripture, because they are part of a particular progression of thought. Understanding the progression of thought will help understand why Elihu said them.

This is how the KJV interprets the Hebrew text.
Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

The Old testament Hebrew mind and the English mind shaped by Greek ways of thinking are quite different, and the way the two languages work are quite distinct as well. This is why the translators occasionally state that the Hebrew is unclear. I would describe interpreting Hebrew as like solving a dot-to-dot puzzle with many of the the numbers missing. There are a variety of ways to put the words together, and several might fit most of the dots, but the intention was a particular flow of ideas. It requires a certain willingness to be open to different options and to discern the likely meaning using a sense of liguistic taste informed by one's personal relationships with God and other people.

What are the words strung together in these three verses?

Hebrew -
v. 35 Job ('iYoB) not (lo') with knowledge (B-Da"aT) was speaking (YDaBeR) , and his words (U-DBaRaYV) not (Lo') with wisdom (B-HaShKeYL).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX:
v. 35 But Job (Ιωβ δὲ) not in knowledge (οὐκ ἐν συνέσει) has spoken (ἐλάλησεν) nor [were] his spoken words (τὰ δὲ ῥήματα αὐτοῦ οὐκ) in understanding (ἐν ἐπιστήμῃ)

Hebrew -
v. 36 My desire ('ABiY) [is that] Job ('iYoB) will be tried (YiBaKheN) until ('aD) splendor/victory/strngth (NeTsaKh, see note 1 below) upon/because of ("aL) his answers (TShuboT) with wicked men (B-'aNSheY 'AveN).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX:
v.36 Verily not (οὐ μὴν), but rather (δὲ ἀλλὰ) may you start learning (μάθε) Job (Ιωβ) lest you give (μὴ δῷς) still (ἔτι) a critical response (ἀνταπόκρισιν) just as (ὥσπερ) the foolish ones (οἱ ἄφρονες) [give].

Hebrew -
v. 37 For (KiY) he addeth (YoSiYP) rebellion (PeSha") onto ("aL) his sin (HaTTa'T-U). He was clapping (YiSPoQ) in the midst of us (Be-YNeY-NU), and was multiplying (V-YeReB) his words ('AMaRaYV) against God (La-'eL.).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX -
v:37 lest (ἵνα μὴ) we should add (προσθῶμεν) upon our sins (ἐφ᾽ ἁμαρτίαις ἡμῶν). But lawlessness (ἀνομία δὲ) onto us (ἐφ᾽ ἡμῖν) λογισθήσεται (will be imputed) speaking many words (πολλὰ λαλούντων ῥήματα) against the Lord (ἐναντίον τοῦ κυρίου).

Note 1 - נֶצַח netsach, neh'-tsakh; or נֵצַח nêtsach; from H5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view):—alway(-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever(more), perpetual, strength, victory.

So, a reasonable understanding of these three verses would be
v. 35 Job was not speaking with knowledge, and his words {were] not with understanding.
v. 36 My desire is that Job will be purified until he is perfected, because at the moment he is answering like wicked men do. Verily, let it not be that Job speak without knowledge and understanding, but rather, may you start learning, Job, lest you keep on giving a critical response just like the foolish do.
37. So that Job is/was adding rebellion into his sin. He is/was clapping in our midst, and is/was multiplying his words against the Lord. I do hope Job will stop speaking like the foolish do, lest we should add to our own sins, [Maybe] lawlessness will also be imputed to us [for] speaking many words against the Lord.

Re your objection 4. "In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?"

It looks to me like Elihu was wanting Job to be purified and come out splendid.

Re your objection 3 "In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?"

Job was being critical of God in his heart, accusing Him of injustice, and on top of that he was rebelling against God by vocalising his false accusations to others.

 

[PaulThomson]

Then in chapter 42 Job says "I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee." Isn't that weird? How is it that Job knows that God knows all our thoughts? There is nothing in the book of Job talking about Job reading our thoughts unless it is in chapter 1 that Job was the one thinking proud thoughts and God simply repeated them to Satan. But Job continues "therefore have I uttered that I understood not". When? God commends Job for what he said to his friends. In fact it continues with God saying "My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." Clearly Job spoke the thing that is right to the friends, so what is he referring to about having uttered that I understood not? Once again, I think this refers to the boastful thoughts and prayers.

It was after Job confessed he lacked the knowledge to be a wise judge that God approved of "the thing" (singular) that Job had said. There is no indication that God approved of all the other "things (plural)" tat Job had said,

The other three maybe still thought they knew enough to be qualified to condemn others rightly.

 

[ZNP]

It was after Job confessed he lacked the knowledge to be a wise judge that God approved of "the thing" (singular) that Job had said. There is no indication that God approved of all the other "things (plural)" tat Job had said,

The other three maybe still thought they knew enough to be qualified to condemn others rightly.

So "spoken of me" is a reference to Job repenting at the very end? If that were the case why is God even mentioning that to the three friends, are they standing by when God rebukes Job and he repents? There is no indication of that in the text.

What is clear is God knows the conversation they had with Job and He rebukes them for what they said, saying they did not speak aright concerning Him, but that Job did. I think it is a safe and reasonable conclusion that God is talking to them about their conversation with Job.

 

[christophernyc]

Your post reminds me of Adam and Eve in the garden. They were perfect and righteous and blameless. They had a hedge about them, a perfect garden in a perfect world. God let satan in through the hedge to test their trust in Him. Under testing they buckled.

In this regard, Job was very similar. He was perfect, righteous and blameless. He had a hedge about him. God removed the hedge and gave satan access. When Job's trust was tested, he finally buckled.

I think the lesson you are drawing from Job is a good one.

Can you please describe how you believe Job "buckled"? The test was that if Job lost everything (which he did) that he would turn on God and curse Him. Those were the terms of the test set out at the beginning of the story. Is it your belief Job failed this test? If so, can you explain?

 

[ZNP]

Job's Test?

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

This test reminds me of 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If everything that you have has been consecrated to the Lord, then it is no longer your house, or your car, or your land. Also, if you are one with the Lord in all that you do so that you are a coworker with Him, then it is not the work of your hands. Who wants to spend a lifetime building up something that will be burned to the ground and disappear in a day? This is the lesson that Job learns, consecrate all that you have and all that you are and all that you do to the Lord. If Job had done that then the Lord's word of wisdom will protect you from all harm:

Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

I am retired. It has come to my attention how utterly bored some people are. Their bags have waxed old. TV has them bored, it has waxed old. Their job if they still have one is waxed old, everything they thought would satisfy them has waxed old. Many ask me if I am bored, what do I do, etc. The answer is no, I am in the word every day, I am discovering things I never saw before, and it has not waxed old. I got saved when I was 12 years old in 1972. At the time I was seeking for something I could give my whole life to that would not wax old. I thought of a number of things I could do but in each case I realized that would wax old. The story of Job is how the bag that he put his treasure in waxed old, the thieves stole it, the moth corrupted it, and poof, it was all burned and he suffered loss. He made a mistake and clearly his mistake was that his treasure was not in the heavens. Once he repented then everything turned around.

 

[christophernyc]

OK. Let's look at these.

1. 1. Have you noticed that Elihu is the only one who affirms Elihu? God explicitly affirms Job, both at the beginning and the end of this story, but where is there any explicit affirmation of Elihu by anyone?

You are arguing from silence, which is a logical fallacy. That something is not mentioned is not evidence that it is not present.

2. It clearly says four times that Elihu is burning with anger. This is what launches him into his speeches. If Elihu is there to "help" Job, how does delivering his speech while burning with anger going to benefit Job? How is his burning anger supposed to be helpful?

I only counted two times: Job 32:2 and 32:5. However, regardless of how many times, righteous indignation is a godly response to injustice.

Jhn 2:14
And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Jhn 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Jhn 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

To clarify for you, here is the text:

1Then these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2But the *anger* of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, *burned* against Job; his *anger burned* because he justified himself [a]before God. 3And his *anger burned* against his three friends because they had found no answer, yet they had condemned Job. 4Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were years older than he. 5But when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men, his *anger burned*.

Elihu is angry for two different reasons, but it is stated in the text *four* times. Can you acknowledge that if something in Scripture is reiterated four times it is probably important and significant?

Also, it does not say "righteous indignation". That is based on your predetermined conclusion that Elihu is a good agent in this story, which I would disagree.

Elihu is nothing like Jesus, actually. He presumes to be, but he is definitely not like Jesus.

 

[christophernyc]

Sorry, my last reply was unedited, and my time ran out. Here is the edited reply:

Thank you for your response and taking time to answer these questions.

To clarify for you, here is the text:

1Then these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned against Job; his anger burned because he justified himself [a]before God. 3And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, yet they had condemned Job. 4Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were years older than he. 5But when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men, his anger burned.

Elihu is angry for two different reasons, but it is stated in the text *four* times. Can you acknowledge that if something in Scripture is reiterated four times it is probably important and significant?

Also, it does not say "righteous indignation". That is probably based on your predetermined conclusion that Elihu is a good agent in this story, which I would totally disagree. He is not like Jesus, but more of an imposter.

 

[ZNP]

Elihu is nothing like Jesus, actually. He presumes to be, but he is definitely not like Jesus.

I disagree, I can see a lot of agreement between Elihu and Jesus

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

This is the same condemnation that God gives to Job when He asks wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

God says the same thing.

3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

God also says the same thing. His wrath is to them because they did not speak right.

Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.

This is Elihu speaking, it is the lesson that Job is to learn. Job's mistake was walking according to his own opinion. Like I shared in the earlier post if Job had consecrated everything to the Lord then there would have been nothing that belonged to Job that Satan could have touched, and if his labor had been as a coworker of God building with gold, silver and precious stones rather than whatever was right in his own eyes it would have withstood the fire.

16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, 17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.

He also has hit upon the issue being Job's pride. No one can deny that when God speaks to Job He is hitting on his pride and humbling him.

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. 11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. 12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

This is the truth and this is why typical exposition of Job is not right. They have God committing iniquity. They dress it up, but God does not do wickedly, He does not pervert judgment, and that means asking Satan to take a look at Job was not wicked but rather was just. If you don't understand why it was just you shouldn't be expounding on Job.

The lesson we must all learn is that only Jesus is worthy. If you think you can do some great work for the Lord on your own you are deceived and it will all come to naught.

Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Elihu says the same thing I said, that the problem with Job was he was self righteous, just like the Pharisee that Jesus talked about.

Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Now if this were wrong God would have said he didn't speak right, but God did not say that, so it is safe to assume that this is not wrong. Job was self righteous.

Job 36:7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. 8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; 9 Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded.

This is the key takeaway, instead of Job trying to claim he is righteous he should be searching to see where he transgressed and stepped over the line.

 

[ZNP]

Sorry, my last reply was unedited, and my time ran out. Here is the edited reply:

Thank you for your response and taking time to answer these questions.

To clarify for you, here is the text:

1Then these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, burned against Job; his anger burned because he justified himself [a]before God. 3And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, yet they had condemned Job. 4Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were years older than he. 5But when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men, his anger burned.

Elihu is angry for two different reasons, but it is stated in the text *four* times. Can you acknowledge that if something in Scripture is reiterated four times it is probably important and significant?

Also, it does not say "righteous indignation". That is probably based on your predetermined conclusion that Elihu is a good agent in this story, which I would totally disagree. He is not like Jesus, but more of an imposter.

We are told clearly in the New Testament to "be angry and sin not". Being angry is not evidence of sin.

 

[christophernyc]

So, regarding your two objections #3 and #4 against Elihu.

3. In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?

4. In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?

Let's take these in reverse order to your order, but as they appear in scripture, because they are part of a particular progression of thought. Understanding the progression of thought will help understand why Elihu said them.

This is how the KJV interprets the Hebrew text.
Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

The Old testament Hebrew mind and the English mind shaped by Greek ways of thinking are quite different, and the way the two languages work are quite distinct as well. This is why the translators occasionally state that the Hebrew is unclear. I would describe interpreting Hebrew as like solving a dot-to-dot puzzle with many of the the numbers missing. There are a variety of ways to put the words together, and several might fit most of the dots, but the intention was a particular flow of ideas. It requires a certain willingness to be open to different options and to discern the likely meaning using a sense of liguistic taste informed by one's personal relationships with God and other people.

What are the words strung together in these three verses?

Hebrew -
v. 35 Job ('iYoB) not (lo') with knowledge (B-Da"aT) was speaking (YDaBeR) , and his words (U-DBaRaYV) not (Lo') with wisdom (B-HaShKeYL).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX:
v. 35 But Job (Ιωβ δὲ) not in knowledge (οὐκ ἐν συνέσει) has spoken (ἐλάλησεν) nor [were] his spoken words (τὰ δὲ ῥήματα αὐτοῦ οὐκ) in understanding (ἐν ἐπιστήμῃ)

Hebrew -
v. 36 My desire ('ABiY) [is that] Job ('iYoB) will be tried (YiBaKheN) until ('aD) splendor/victory/strngth (NeTsaKh, see note 1 below) upon/because of ("aL) his answers (TShuboT) with wicked men (B-'aNSheY 'AveN).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX:
v.36 Verily not (οὐ μὴν), but rather (δὲ ἀλλὰ) may you start learning (μάθε) Job (Ιωβ) lest you give (μὴ δῷς) still (ἔτι) a critical response (ἀνταπόκρισιν) just as (ὥσπερ) the foolish ones (οἱ ἄφρονες) [give].

Hebrew -
v. 37 For (KiY) he addeth (YoSiYP) rebellion (PeSha") onto ("aL) his sin (HaTTa'T-U). He was clapping (YiSPoQ) in the midst of us (Be-YNeY-NU), and was multiplying (V-YeReB) his words ('AMaRaYV) against God (La-'eL.).
The sense of the Hebrew conveyed in Greek in the LXX -
v:37 lest (ἵνα μὴ) we should add (προσθῶμεν) upon our sins (ἐφ᾽ ἁμαρτίαις ἡμῶν). But lawlessness (ἀνομία δὲ) onto us (ἐφ᾽ ἡμῖν) λογισθήσεται (will be imputed) speaking many words (πολλὰ λαλούντων ῥήματα) against the Lord (ἐναντίον τοῦ κυρίου).

Note 1 - נֶצַח netsach, neh'-tsakh; or נֵצַח nêtsach; from H5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view):—alway(-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever(more), perpetual, strength, victory.

So, a reasonable understanding of these three verses would be
v. 35 Job was not speaking with knowledge, and his words {were] not with understanding.
v. 36 My desire is that Job will be purified until he is perfected, because at the moment he is answering like wicked men do. Verily, let it not be that Job speak without knowledge and understanding, but rather, may you start learning, Job, lest you keep on giving a critical response just like the foolish do.
37. So that Job is/was adding rebellion into his sin. He is/was clapping in our midst, and is/was multiplying his words against the Lord. I do hope Job will stop speaking like the foolish do, lest we should add to our own sins, [Maybe] lawlessness will also be imputed to us [for] speaking many words against the Lord.

Re your objection 4. "In Job 34:36, Elihu is wishing punishment on Job. How does this comport if Elihu is there to be some kind of mediator?"

It looks to me like Elihu was wanting Job to be purified and come out splendid.

Re your objection 3 "In Job 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of adding rebellion to his sin. He is accusing Job of being rebellious *in addition* to his sin. What is the sin Elihu is accusing Job of?"

Job was being critical of God in his heart, accusing Him of injustice, and on top of that he was rebelling against God by vocalising his false accusations to others.

First of all, thank you for the brief on the challenge of interpreting certain words / phrases in this book. The Book of Job has more words, as you probably know, that only appear that one time in Job and nowhere else in Scripture. So it is challenge to cross reference those words. Also, I find biblehub.com to be a wonderful tool and looking at the original Hebrew and the Strong's definitions, too. Glad to discuss this book with someone who has done the same kind of digging into the text.

It is true that Job speaks without knowledge. That is iterated three times in the text, by Elihu, Job and God. So your conclusion is that he was speaking foolishly then? Is that your belief? It seems you are basing that on Elihu’s assessment, right? But did you notice that God does not level this kind of accusation against Job? God says nothing about Job speaking foolishly. However, God does say that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Do you see that? Elihu’s conclusion is then the opposite of God’s conclusion of Job. This is why Elihu is a svengali. He takes a bit of truth and twists and distorts it.

Also, it does not seem to me that Elihu is wanting Job to be purified, as you stated. Even if Job was wrong in what he said (which God said Job was not) how would it benefit someone to wish perpetual punishment on him until he changes? Elihu is a sadist and there is no grace whatsoever in his words or his approach to Job.

 

[christophernyc]

It was after Job confessed he lacked the knowledge to be a wise judge that God approved of "the thing" (singular) that Job had said. There is no indication that God approved of all the other "things (plural)" tat Job had said,

The other three maybe still thought they knew enough to be qualified to condemn others rightly.

The context in which God says Job has spoken rightly about Him is in direct comparison to Job's 3 friends. That is the contrast. Those words and speeches that are being compared are from chapters 4 - 31. That is the comparison God is clearly making in that statement.

So what is your opinion of what Job said from prior to chapter 32? What do you say to all of the majesty he gives God in chapter 9? Or when Job says that he knows his Redeemer lives? Or chapter 28 when he states that the fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding? What do you say about those words attributed to Job in this story?

 

[ZNP]

First of all, thank you for the brief on the challenge of interpreting certain words / phrases in this book. The Book of Job has more words, as you probably know, that only appear that one time in Job and nowhere else in Scripture. So it is challenge to cross reference those words. Also, I find biblehub.com to be a wonderful tool and looking at the original Hebrew and the Strong's definitions, too. Glad to discuss this book with someone who has done the same kind of digging into the text.

It is true that Job speaks without knowledge. That is iterated three times in the text, by Elihu, Job and God. So your conclusion is that he was speaking foolishly then? Is that your belief? It seems you are basing that on Elihu’s assessment, right? But did you notice that God does not level this kind of accusation against Job? God says nothing about Job speaking foolishly. However, God does say that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God). Do you see that? Elihu’s conclusion is then the opposite of God’s conclusion of Job. This is why Elihu is a svengali. He takes a bit of truth and twists and distorts it.

Also, it does not seem to me that Elihu is wanting Job to be purified, as you stated. Even if Job was wrong in what he said (which God said Job was not) how would it benefit someone to wish perpetual punishment on him until he changes? Elihu is a sadist and there is no grace whatsoever in his words or his approach to Job.

Elihu:
Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

God
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

So no one is disputing that. Instead you are disputing that God did not say Job's words were without wisdom, and that is what makes Elihu a sadist?

Here is more of what God said:

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. 11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. 14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

I think by the end of the book of Job all three, Elihu, Job and God agree with this. To be able to do these things would signify a very high level of skill, and the word wisdom is essentially synonymous with skill.

שָׂכַל sâkal, saw-kal'; a primitive root; to be (causatively, make or act) circumspect and hence, intelligent:—consider, expert, instruct, prosper, (deal) prudent(-ly), (give) skill(-ful), have good success, teach, (have, make to) understand(-ing), wisdom, (be, behave self, consider, make) wise(-ly), guide wittingly.

 

[ZNP]

The context in which God says Job has spoken rightly about Him is in direct comparison to Job's 3 friends. That is the contrast. Those words and speeches that are being compared are from chapters 4 - 31. That is the comparison God is clearly making in that statement.

So what is your opinion of what Job said from prior to chapter 32? What do you say to all of the majesty he gives God in chapter 9? Or when Job says that he knows his Redeemer lives? Or chapter 28 when he states that the fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding? What do you say about those words attributed to Job in this story?

42:1 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge?

Job answers your question for you.

therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

 

[christophernyc]

We are told clearly in the New Testament to "be angry and sin not". Being angry is not evidence of sin.

The relevant point is that Elihu's "counsel" is being driven by his anger. Would you want to be counseled by someone who is burning with anger against you, regardless of whether or not they sin in their anger?

 

[christophernyc]

Elihu:
Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

God
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

So no one is disputing that. Instead you are disputing that God did not say Job's words were without wisdom, and that is what makes Elihu a sadist?

Here is more of what God said:

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. 11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. 14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

I think by the end of the book of Job all three, Elihu, Job and God agree with this. To be able to do these things would signify a very high level of skill, and the word wisdom is essentially synonymous with skill.

שָׂכַל sâkal, saw-kal'; a primitive root; to be (causatively, make or act) circumspect and hence, intelligent:—consider, expert, instruct, prosper, (deal) prudent(-ly), (give) skill(-ful), have good success, teach, (have, make to) understand(-ing), wisdom, (be, behave self, consider, make) wise(-ly), guide wittingly.

You asked, "Instead you are disputing that God did not say Job's words were without wisdom, and that is what makes Elihu a sadist?"

Sorry, this question is unclear to me. Can you clarify? Thanks.

Regarding the sadist comment, if you reread what I wrote it was in connection to Elihu wishing perpetual punishment on Job. He wants Job to be "tried to the end" as some translations interpret it. Essentially, he wants Job tortured. That was the context of the sadist comment.

Even if Job was wrong in what he said (which God said Job was not) do you support the idea of Job enduring more punishment? As a believer, do you think it is justified to wish pain and suffering on your enemies? Is that what Jesus taught?

 

[ZNP]

The relevant point is that Elihu's "counsel" is being driven by his anger. Would you want to be counseled by someone who is burning with anger against you, regardless of whether or not they sin in their anger?

That is the question? What counsel does Job prefer?

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

It seems to me you keep changing the goalposts.

I thought the original question is why does God not say Elihu spoke right? Then it became do you think Elihu is a picture of the Antichrist, the most arrogant one of all? Then it became can you explain the discrepancy between the way Elihu and God communicate with Job, one is making statements and the other is asking questions.

To me the question is simple, if Elihu is the Antichrist then why doesn't God tell him to repent? If he is the most arrogant of all why doesn't God tell him to repent? If God had a problem with Elihu's method of communication why doesn't He tell him to repent?

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job.

 

[ZNP]

You asked, "Instead you are disputing that God did not say Job's words were without wisdom, and that is what makes Elihu a sadist?"

Sorry, this question is unclear to me. Can you clarify? Thanks.

You agree that God and Elihu both said Job was speaking without knowledge. However, it seemed to me your disagreement with Elihu is that he added that his speaking was without wisdom. My point is that God is asking Job if he can do many things (which he can't), all of which require wisdom. Hence, Job is able to see that he spoke foolishly.

Regarding the sadist comment, if you reread what I wrote it was in connection to Elihu wishing perpetual punishment on Job. He wants Job to be "tried to the end" as some translations interpret it. Essentially, he wants Job tortured. That was the context of the sadist comment.

Even if Job was wrong in what he said (which God said Job was not) do you support the idea of Job enduring more punishment? As a believer, do you think it is justified to wish pain and suffering on your enemies? Is that what Jesus taught?

I think this comment by Job is similar to Paul's comments

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The point is that God is not unrighteous to use Satan and disasters on people in order to lead them to eternal salvation.

I saw an interview with a man after the Palisades fire saying everything he had worked for his entire life was gone. I thought yes! Hopefully he can see that all those things were vanity and turn to the Lord and appreciate the Lord's word about putting our treasure in heaven.

 

[PaulThomson]

5. Have you noticed that the way Elihu speaks to Job is completely different than how God speaks to Job? Elihu's speeches toward Job are dominated by harsh statements and accusations. His words are full of harsh judgment and criticism. Comparatively, the majority of the way God speaks to Job is in the form of questions. Did you notice that?

Direct rebuke vs divine sarcasm ? They are both critical. Elihu said Job's righteousness and unrighteousness don't add to God or take anything from Him. But other men's wickedness can leaven those around them. So, it is perhaps understandable that from Elihu's perspective as an intercessor, a man experiencing human frailty and hanging out with Job, that he is rather upset about the potential collateral damage to Job and others, if Job carries on down the path of accusing God of injustice. God on the other hand is not subject to human frailty, so can be less influenced by fear of the consequences that may fall upon humans. He also has a long game perspective , whereas men look from a mortal limited lifespan perspective.

The difference need not be satanic vs. divine.

6. In Job 35:2 Elihu accuses Job of saying that his righteousness is more than God's. Where does Job say this? I do read in chapter 9 where Job explicitly says the exact opposite of this accusation, but can you point to where Job says what Elihu is claiming?

I think this accusation that Job's righteousness is more than God's is implied rather than explicitly stated.

As an example, in Job 29
12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.

13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.

16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

(Implication "But God isn't doing that for me.")

Job 30: 9 He hath cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes.

20 I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not.

21 Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me.

22 Thou liftest me up to the wind; thou causest me to ride upon it, and dissolvest my substance.

23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

24 Howbeit he will not stretch out his hand to the grave, though they cry in his destruction.

25 Did not I weep for him that was in trouble? was not my soul grieved for the poor?


Job 31:16 If I have withheld the poor from their desire, or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail;

17 Or have eaten my morsel myself alone, and the fatherless hath not eaten thereof;

18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb

19 If I have seen any perish for want of clothing, or any poor without covering;

20 If his loins have not blessed me, and if he were not warmed with the fleece of my sheep;

21 If I have lifted up my hand against the fatherless, when I saw my help in the gate:

22 Then let mine arm fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone.

(But look how God is leaving me to suffer unjustly.)