-The Bride-

Precious_Sunflower · Jan 16, 2013

We are not putting jews on a pedestal, many jews are even much more humble of nature than what many Christians are. A lot of Christians also put themselves on a pedestal claiming that they are much more important now, than what the jews are. Just because some of us wants to bless Israel and bless the jews, doesn't means that we are making them getting more puffed up, as in pride.

Yes, there might be jews that do might be walking in pride, as well as looking down on others, e.t.c... As there is with Christians doing much of the same. But to be talking about jews as if Christians are the ones who counts the most right now, as well as thinking that Christians are taking the place of Israel and the jews in God's eyes, I see this as wrong.

Yes, we all are now on the same place with Salvation. Yes, we all need to repent and humble ourselves before God. Yes, we all have a place in God's heart, and yes, He loves us all the same. Still, this doesn't means that Israel and God's people that are the jews since in earlier times, have stopped with having a special place in God's heart. God's Promises still stands strong for them. Now look at everything the jews have gone through in the past as now in our time, God's protection has always been there for them. Or else the jews as well as Israel would have fallen long time ago. But in God's eyes they are still as precious, and they are still His people.

Shilo · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Revelation 21:9-10

The New Jerusalem9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Galatians 4:26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

John 17:11 Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

As Children of our Father and Jerusalem our mother that makes us the guests.

We all as one (in unity) make up the bride and each one of us is a child ( part of the bride) of the bride. In that way We are the Child of God and he is in us because we are part of the Bride.

Matthew 1246 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

kenisyes · Jan 16, 2013

Shilo said:

I used to believe that too (and quoted the Scriptures I just erased to save space), but now I'm not so sure. I see so many spots and wrinkles in the Body, and so many don't care. I see so many who just want to do the basic amount to get to heaven. I think the key phrase is "all as one (in unity)". I don't see the unity, and I don't see many people caring. At the rate we are going, it feels like it's going to be another ten thousand years.

oOfallen_angelOo · Jan 16, 2013

Precious_Sunflower said:

The bride is not any of the people, nor is it a physical place or church orientation.

The bride is spoken of with the same authority as God at times in the bible, especially in Revelations in the verse where it says, " The bride and the Spirit say " Come!"

They are both offering the water of life which only God can give.

Just thinking; a bride is spoken of with singularity in the case of the bible as well; meaning there is only one single bride. Not millions of believers or several different churches.

Also in contrast, the devil is also spoken of as a prostitue, which is a woman who has had many lovers and is unfaithful. Unfaithful to God I would deduce in this sense.

The bride essentially, is a singular being, who is faithful to God, and has the same authority to give out the water of life as God does.

Churches cannot give out the water of life, neither can the people of them, the believers, or the jews.

Also, a bride is married to her husband; the bride to God would thus be at the same authority as God, which obviously the children of God or the churches are not.

God is on an entirely different level - so mentioning of a bride...a female figure that harbors authority like God...you don't think...?

Idk I'm rambling lol

Bookends · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Deu_7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

so depending out what we think a generation is (17, 40, 51), multiple that by a thousand = 17,000, 40,000...well you get the picture...J/K'ing.

Really now, can you explain why you think or feel it's going to be another 10,000 years? 10,000 years for what? Are you looking for something in particular?

Buck Hatch in his progress of Redemption serious says "there is unity in diversity" ...God created a diverse universe, but yet it's unified.

Sure their are many dead Christians (oxymoron term, no such thing as a dead Christian, but these are of pseudo faith) but God still has His remnant and always will until the end of time.

peterT · Jan 16, 2013

Bookends said:

What would make you think I am in a pre-trib camp Bro.

Shilo · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1 Corinthians 11:19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval

Just remember just because people go to Church do not make them his. As the world gets darker he has told us more will leave the Church. Look in faith not with your eyes. The time is near the ones with theHply Spirit are the Children

remnant shall be saved
Romans 9:27
Romans 11:5

peterT · Jan 16, 2013

Precious_Sunflower said:

If they were humble they would receive Jesus as the saviour and would have listed to Moses and the prophets.

Puff, Puff, Puff, keep puffing them up, and it will be harder for them to realise they have sinned.

How do you lead someone to the Lord? You explain how they are sinners and that they need to repent of their sin and receive Jesus as the saviour, or the wrath of God will abideth on them.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

kenisyes · Jan 16, 2013

Bookends said:

I'm looking for progress in removing the spots and wrinkles which are supposed to be gone from the Bride when Jesus returns,

There is unity in diverstity, but Jesus defines unity as "as they may be one as I and the Father are one". That's not what I see; I see diversity, mostly lack of cooperation, and a fair amount of downright condemnation of each other.

I believe the "remnant" is the Bride.

kenisyes · Jan 16, 2013

Shilo said:

That is exactly why I don't think the whole Church is the bride. Of course, you appear to be defining the church as the remnant. So, if you do that, then I agree the church is the Bride. But if you do that, then what do you call the collection of people who got saved and/or baptized, and go to church, and claim to be Christian? Will those all go to hell? If not, and some get to heaven, will they be guests at the wedding feast of the Lamb?

Maybe we're saying the same thing, and just using words differently.

Bookreader · Jan 16, 2013

This is a parable - we do all know that Jesus' parables often have several levels of understanding don't we?
Those offered Christ are described as the invited guests - probably the Jews. God's chosen people.
When they can't be bothered others are offered invites - gentiles.

The original offer is NOT rescinded (something the church of Rome said was now their position - with no Biblical credence). The idea of their dispensation taking over and nullifying the position of Israel goes against The Old Testament where a ONE-SIDED covenant was made between God and the people of Abraham and repeated with many descendants after. Non-conditional. Something which apparently means nothing in latin...
But the offer to the non-chosen people (gentiles) would be there. We, (Israel and gentiles) are to be guests.
The parable does not say this is about the Bride.

The Bride of Christ is described in Jesus' parables.
But often after Christ believers are described as either the
BODY of Christ. or The Bride
I think they describe different aspects.
The city of Jerusalem is ALSO described as the Bride of Christ.

Fortunately I believe the believers will meet Christ in Jerusalem, as the Bible says, on his return.
The Bible says Christ will return to judge and resurrect the dead. It does NOT say he will call down people from heaven (or up from a torture in hell) for judgement. People are NOT judged before the return of Christ to earth (in Jerusalem) according to the Bible.
I believe what the Bible says - I've never been told what to believe by man, except by what was written in the Bible.

As with all issues we need to avoid being told what to believe by others of mankind. That includes parents and clergy.
God provided His written word so we could see what He had to say ourselves.
Clergy, particularly paid clergy, will repeat what they were told to believe at seminary.

The Bible was written through God's spirit (i.e. inspired) for a reason.
So that people should not rely on the teachings of men.

Even Paul said, don't rely upon what I say, look at scripture!

Bookends · Jan 16, 2013

peterT said:

I guess from the material that I thought I read from your posts. I thought we had a discussion about Jew and gentile debate. Maybe it was future vs past debate @ Revelation when I wrote about Babylon the harlot as being 1st Century Jerusalem.

Bookends · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Well, you and I don't agree on everything, but I don't feel we are against each other. I think of you as a brother, and well knowledgeable one at that.

Bookends · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Ok so you feel that the world has to be mostly Christianize in perfect unity before the 2nd advent or rapture (not sure what you prefer to call it) or that all Christians will be united on all doctrines but not necessarily in a Christianized world?

kenisyes · Jan 16, 2013

Bookends said:

No, I think the Bride needs to act like Jesus is living inside them, basically showing love in what they do. I don't think we need to be in agreement on doctrine, but I think we need to recognize that we are all different aspects of the truth of the Word of God, and stop fighting over the differences. If we are going to say the Bride is the Church, then those things must be true of the Church. I estimate it around 2% of the people who currently take the name Christian now. That's why I find it easier to think that the Bride is some small percent of everyone who calls himself Christian. I'm certainly willing to admit I'm wrong. In fact, I hope I am. I'd love to see 100% of Christians acting like it. But in reality, unless God works a miracle, I think it will take a long time.

Bookends · Jan 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Can you put some scripture to what you back up what you think?

Don't you think that some Christians today who live in the bounds of essential Christian orthodoxy (from any denomination) act like Jesus? Do you believe that you act like Jesus 100%?

I don't know how you could make an estimate of 2% who claim Christ don't really know Him. What kind of gauge do you measure that with?

I kinda think that the world and even those who called themselves Christian but perhaps aren't, will grow more apostate before the Lord comes again, but the born-again believers will hold firm to the faith. I think the parables of Matthew 13 and among some other passages affirm this.

I'm not trying to change the way you believe, or have a heated debate, but just trying to understand why you believe what you believe. And if we both get sharpened in the process then it's a positive.

Precious_Sunflower · Jan 17, 2013

Shilo said:

When you say that more beleivers as the world get's darker will leave the church. Then do you mean more the physical church as in many will be leaving their faith in Jesus Christ? Or do you mean many will leave the church as in being a building, because of the church drawing away from Jesus Christ?

Shilo · Jan 17, 2013

Precious_Sunflower said:

From what I hear on Christian news it is both.
People are leaving the church losing their faith in Yeshua.( leaving their faith and the building)
Many true believers are not being feed in the churches and are now starting home bible studies or home churches. They what to study the pure word and get their questions answered. (leaving building)
Self seekers ( just searching )
Then there is another group they call them the church hoppers. I do not like the mean things that are said about these people. They are labeled as” self seekers “and if the church does not fill their needs the move from church to church to see what they can get from a church. I believe there are many reasons for this group of people and should not be lumped into one group. I would have to say I was one of them and the only thing I could say I was looking for was the true word of God and fellowship. I have been to many churches and it is the same thing. They take a bible verse from here and there bring them together and then build a sermon on two or more verses I don’t want to here for an hour or more what you think. I like an hour of the world and then bring in the verses that fit the passage just studied. I guess I am one of those Self seekers but really is that not what we are all to do . Study so we know when we have heard the truth.

kenisyes · Jan 17, 2013

Bookends said:

The Bride is to be without spot or wrinkle. Jesus wishes it would be the whole church. Eph. 5:27. It is clear from Rev. 21:9 followed by 21:24, and Zech 14:16 that some people will not live there but will walk in and out (thus they are guests). From 21:27, some people will not be allowed in. We have thus established at least 3 groups. Those who live there (actually are) the city, another group that goes in and out, and a third not allowed to attend. The issue is, who is who?

We have a couple of options. Option 1. Jesus is eventually successful in his desires from Eph 5:27, and all the church is the bride. That's what I would like to see, too. Then, the other two groups would be the people with good hearts, who are unsaved, and then the evil people. OR Option 2. The Bride is some small subgroup of the Church, perhaps the remnant. Then the other groups are the remainder of the church and the unsaved.

Revelation gives us a delineation of 4 groups who respond to the New Song of ch. 5. The elders and living creatures of ch. 5, The sealed of ch. 14, the victorious of ch. 15, and the rest of ch. 19. Each group is farther away from the throne, and has a less complete response to the song. It's a matter of opinion from this point on. A person can believe the bride is groups 1&2 only, 1&2&3 or all four groups. Scripture does not tell us.

My estimates are based on experience. I certainly do not act like Jesus 100%. I know Christians who act like Jesus 99% and 10%, and pretty much anywhere in-between. I think "spot" and "wrinkles" refers to the missing 1% to 90%. I have studied a lot of Christian history, and served in a lot of churches in a lot of denominations. If you set the bar at acting like Jesus 95% and trying, the number is around 2% in my experience. If you have different experience, please share. Part of my experience is that the other 98% simply are not trying, and if confronted, will make every excuse possible, and misquote Scripture (or more likely church tradition) to prove they don't have to. That's why I set the bar there. When a person refuses to change, then the spot and wrinkle problem is way greater. Bleach and irons only work on cooperative clothing.

Case 1. All the church is the Bride. I conclude it will take a long time, given the state of affairs I see. This is not to say that God can't change it in a day. I imagine that's part of what the tribulation is for (if you're mid- or post- trib). Case 2. Only a small percent, maybe the same 2% I see, or whatever number is really correct that I don't see, is the bride, and everyone else is in groups 3 or 4 or the 4 groups in Revelation.

Bookends · Jan 20, 2013

kenisyes said:

In Christ, we already are!

If this is what you are waiting for, I think you have a very long, looooong wait, lol..I think the pattern of today's age will follow the pattern of History, or rather His-Story, and in Noah's day, and in the of the ancient Israel.

kenisyes said:

ok, but still, I think that the bible only speaks specifically of two groups, the saved and unsaved. But you perspective on it is interesting.

kenisyes said:

Wow! how can one set the bar on how perfect Jesus is, nonetheless setting the bar and rating others by it I chose not to do. How does one measure ones inward sanctification, that's like trying to measure how big the universe is. You claim your gauge is your experiences, I'd suggest your experiences are unreliable and that some whom seem to measure up high may not even be saved at all! The bible specifically speak not to judge others in this manner, only God can judge this.

kenisyes said:

My experience is like a roller coaster, but hopefully and I pray for that the peak gets higher and higher. But regardless I put my faith in Christ's righteous, not my own.

Part of my experience is that the other 98% simply are not trying, and if confronted, will make every excuse possible, and misquote Scripture (or more likely church tradition) to prove they don't have to. That's why I set the bar there. When a person refuses to change, then the spot and wrinkle problem is way greater. Bleach and irons only work on cooperative clothing.

kenisyes said:

I'm neither mid or post trib, I'm past-trib but believe I'm living a general tribulation, which existed since the fall of man. But I do agree that God uses tribulation to mold his children. Your groups are interesting, but I don't agree with it...Anyway, thanks for sharing...

May God's peace and love full you brother. Amen!

-The Bride-

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