The Calvin / Servertus controvercy

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Lillywolf

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'I will not deny that it was at my (John Calvin's admision) instance that he (Servetus) was arrested, that the prosecutor was set on by me, or that it was by me that the articles of inculpation were drawn up.'" (A Tragedy of the Reformation, Being the Authentic Narrative of the History and Burning of the 'Christianismi Restitutio,' 1553, David Cuthbertson, p. 47)

The Complaint of Nicholas de la Fontaine

Against Servetus, 14 August, 1553

in Merrick Whitcomb, ed., Period of the later reformation
in Translations and Reprints from the Original Sources of European History, 6 vols.,
(Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania History Department, 1898-1912), vol. 3, no. 3, pp.

Hanover Historical Texts Project
Scanned by Mike Anderson, January 1998.
"​
Process of 14 August, 1553, before the Lesser Council of Geneva. Calvin : Opera. Vol. XIII, pp.727-731. French.

Nicholas de la Fontaine [1] asserts that he has instituted proceedings against Michael Servetus and on this account he has allowed himself to be held prisoner in criminal process.
I.[2] In the first place that about twenty-four years ago the defendant commenced to annoy the churches of Germany with his errors and heresies, and was condemned and took to flight in order to escape the punishment prepared for him [3].

II. Item, that on or about this time he printed a wretched book, which has infected many people [4].

III. Item, that since that time he has not ceased by all means in his power to scatter his poison, as much by his construction of biblical text, as by certain annotations which he has made upon Ptolemy.

IV. Item, that since that time he has printed in secrecy another book containing endless blasphemies.[5]

V. Item, that while detained in prison in the city of Vienne, when he saw that they were

willing to pardon him on condition of his recanting, he found means to escape from prison .

VI. Said Nicholas demands that said Servetus be examined on all these points.

VII. And since he is able to evade the question by pretending that his blasphemies and heresies are nought else than good doctrine, said Nicholas proposes certain articles on which he demands said heretic be examined.

VIII. To wit, whether he has not written and falsely taught and published that to believe in a single essence of God there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, is to create four phantoms, which cannot and ought not to be imagined.

IX. Item, that to put such distinctions into the essence of God is to cause God to be divided into three parts, and that this is a three-headed devil, like to Cerberus, whom the ancient poets have called the dog of hell, a monster, and things equally injurious.

X. Item, whether he has not maintained such blasphemies most injuriously, as much as against the ancient doctors, such as St. Ambrose, St. Augustin, Chrysostom, Athanasius and the like as against all those who sought in our times to elevate Christianity, even calling to Melancthon a man without faith, son of the Devil, Belial, and Satan.

XI. Item, whether he does not say that our Lord Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, except in so much as he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

XII. Item, that those who believe Jesus Christ to have been the word of God the Father, engendered through all eternity, have a scheme of redemption which is fanciful and of the nature of sorcery.

XIII. Item, that Jesus Christ is God, insomuch as God has caused him to be such.

XIV. Item, that the flesh of Jesus Christ came from heaven and from the substance of God.

XV. Item, that divinity was imparted to Jesus Christ only when he was made man, and afterwards spiritually communicated to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

XVI. Item, that when it is said that Jesus Christ is of the same essence as his Father, it is the same as saying that in this man Jesus Christ there is the same Trinity, power and will as God, and not that the word of God dwells and subsists in his essence.

XVII. Item, whether he does not condemn those who seek in the essence of God His holy spirit, saying that all those who believe in the Trinity are atheists [6].

XVIII. Item, that those who believe in any distinction of property in the essence of God dissipate His nature and reduce it to fragments.

XIX. Item, that the word of God is no other thing than the flesh of Jesus Christ.

XX. Item, that the flesh of Jesus Christ was engendered, out of the substance of God by a word which he calls "seminal."

XXI. That the essence of the flesh and of the soul of Jesus Christ is the divinity of this word and of the breath which God has breathed forth.

XXII. Item, that if Jesus Christ were the Son of God otherwise than on account of his humanity, because that is engendered out of the substance of God, then he would not be really dead. For if he is dead he is no longer the Son of God.

XXIII. Item, that when St. John says that the word was in God, it is the same as saying that the man Jesus Christ was there.

XXV. Item, that the substance of Jesus Christ is that which was in the skies, and that this is the same substance whence proceed the angels and our souls.

XXVI. Item, instead of conferring three persons in the essence of God, or three hypostases which have each His property, he says that God is a single entity, containing one hundred thousand essences, so that He is a portion of us, and that we are a portion of His spirit.

XXVII. Item, in consequence whereof not alone the models of all creatures are in God, but also the material forms, so that our souls are of the substantial seed of the word of God.

XXVIII. Item, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God because he has the elements of the substance of the Father, to wit: fire, air and water.

XXIX. Item, that the soul of man is mortal, and that the only thing which is immortal is an elementary breath, which is the substance that Jesus Christ now possesses in heaven and which is also the elementary and divine and incorruptible substance of the Holy Ghost.

XXX. Item, that the Fathers under the Law have never received the spirit of regeneration.

XXXI. Item, that by the sin of Adam the soul of man as well as the body was made mortal.

XXXII. Item, that little children are sinless, and moreover are incapable of redemption until they come of age.

XXXIII. Item, that they do not commit mortal sin up to the age of twenty.

XXXIV. Item, that the baptism of little children is an invention of the Devil, an infernal falsehood tending to the destruction of all Christianity.

XXXV. Item, that the word of God is no longer that which it was before the incarnation of Jesus Christ, because its substance was the clearness of the skies and is now made flesh.

XXXVI. Item, that however much he confesses that the philosophers have erred in saying that the word was God Himself, he says that Jesus Christ, insomuch as he is a man, was always in God and that from Him is the divinity of the world.

XXXVII. Item, that the air is the Spirit of God and that God is called Spirit, because He breathes life in all things by His spirit of air.

XXXVIII. Item, the soul of man insomuch as it possesses many divine properties is full of an infinity of Gods.

XXXIX. Item, that in the person of Msr. Calvin, minister of the word of God in the Church of Geneva, he has defamed with printed book the doctrine which he preached, uttering all the injurious and blasphemous things which it is possible to invent.

XL. And because he knows well that his said book could not be tolerated even among Papists, insomuch as it destroyed all the foundations of Christianity, therefore he hid himself at the house of William Guerou, at that time proof corrector, as said Guerou has testified.

Said Nicholas demands that the said Servetus should be compelled to respond as to the fact of the articles here presented, without entering into dispute as to whether the doctrine is true or not, because that will appear later on.

In the articles of the Procureur General are to be found several charges not incorporated in the complaint of Nicholas de la Fontaine. Among these are the following:

Item, whether he has married, and if he answers that he has not, he shall be asked why, in consideration of his age, he could refrain so long from marriage.

Item, whether he did not know that his doctrine was pernicious, considering that he favors Jews and Turks, by making excuses for them, and if he has not studied the Koran in order to disprove and controvert the doctrine and religion that the Christian churches hold, together with other profane books, from which people ought to abstain in matters of religion, according to the doctrine of St. Paul.

Item, whether the said book Koran is not a bad book, full of blasphemies. (More at the LINK)
 

Locoponydirtman

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I neutralize that verse with this'n:

"you have no need that anyone should teach you." 1 John 2:27.

It's toward the back of the Bible because the things in the back neutralize the things in the front.

I learned this on my own personal study under a tree with my Red Letter edition.
No we are not Muslim the later written stuff does not neutralize earlier written stuff.
If there were no need for teaching why would John pen a letter of instruction and teaching? This would be superfluous. I'm trying to teach you that you don't need any teachers?
So there is a little more to it than; hey guys you don't need teachers. Because let just say a person with zero teaching opened a Bible in a hotel room because he was bored and had nothing better to do, and just so happened to open it up to that page and started reading right there at verse 27? Or a 7 year old saw grandma's Bible laying open on the coffee table walked over and read that very scripture having never read any other passage of the Bible?
Who was john writting to and why was he writting it puts this into context.
So let's have some context,

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 2:18‭-‬27 NASB
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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Yes well, you can choose to miss a lot and make that claim.
Did I miss your posting the transcripts of the Servetus trial? Talk is cheap.
No you did not miss anything, maybe someday I may actually take the time to do it, it will depend on how much I really care, if I bother to take the time it will be on behalf of one deceased person Servetus who died a horrible death at the stake, a man who was denied counsel and was made sick by the rats feasting on him day and night while he awaited trial.

Calvin by information to the authorities at Vienne through dictated letters, he (Calvin) succeeded in having Servetus thrown into prison there, from whence he escaped, and became an outcast for months.

The malignant and inhuman manner in which this Christian leader followed his innocent victim, could scarcely have occurred upon any other question, but a religious one, and his murderous intent, from the first, is shown by a letter from Calvin to a friend in which he says “Servetus wrote to me lately, and besides his letter sent me a great volume of his ravings, telling me, with audacious arrogance, that I should find there things stupendous and unheard of until now. He offers to come thither if I approve; but I will not pledge my faith to him; for, did he come, if I have any authority here, “I SHOULD NEVER SUFFER HIM TO GO AWAY ALIVE.”

And he proved himself, in this instance, true to his word.
William Simpson[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think so. When you boast you have materials pertinent to this discussion , then call people liars as to what they report of Michael Servetus and his beliefs, while never showing any proof of your own claims, you're not credible. Take the time to do it?
You take the time to claim you have materials. You take the time to cut into people in defense of Servetus an as an anti-Calvinist. Having accused people of being Calvinist in your posts well prior. But you don't take the time to prove you know what you're talking about with proofs.

Googling isn't showing proof of those texts you claimed to have. If that is your means of acquisition of said texts, then you have nothing more than any one of us can avail ourselves of in any search engine.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Follow whoever you will, but as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord......as did Calvin.

Servetis was a heretic who denied the TRINITY, the very deity of Christ. The Christ-haters hero.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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No we are not Muslim the later written stuff does not neutralize earlier written stuff.
If there were no need for teaching why would John pen a letter of instruction and teaching? This would be superfluous. I'm trying to teach you that you don't need any teachers?
So there is a little more to it than; hey guys you don't need teachers. Because let just say a person with zero teaching opened a Bible in a hotel room because he was bored and had nothing better to do, and just so happened to open it up to that page and started reading right there at verse 27? Or a 7 year old saw grandma's Bible laying open on the coffee table walked over and read that very scripture having never read any other passage of the Bible?
Who was john writting to and why was he writting it puts this into context.
So let's have some context,

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 2:18‭-‬27 NASB
My fault, because I wasn't clear! The post you are referencing was *sarcasm.* :geek:

I kind of addressed that in post 138 though, just in case!
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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My fault, because I wasn't clear! The post you are referencing was *sarcasm.* :geek:

I kind of addressed that in post 138 though, just in case!
You'll have to forgive me sometimes I'm a little bit slow on the uptake reel.
I got it after I had posted. Lol
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
But you have avoided the challenge to prove it.
You missed the point, which was there is no point to have a discussion when people do not have access to the same information.

As well, not everything is available in .pdf nor I am taking the time to transcribe, translate and screen shot materials or convert them from .pdf formats from what is a complicated legal/ historical proceeding.

Go teach for a university like I do and then you will have access to the materials, until then we have nothing more to discuss.

Here you go Servetus was denied legal counsel, I hope you read French.

“Si le criminel demande destre admis a ses justifications, que le Conseil regarde sil est de raison ou non” Ordonnances de 1543.
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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You missed the point, which was there is no point to have a discussion when people do not have access to the same information.

As well, not everything is available in .pdf nor I am taking the time to transcribe, translate and screen shot materials or convert them from .pdf formats from what is a complicated legal/ historical proceeding.

Go teach for a university like I do and then you will have access to the materials, until then we have nothing more to discuss.

Here you go Servetus was denied legal counsel, I hope you read French.

“Si le criminel demande destre admis a ses justifications, que le Conseil regarde sil est de raison ou non” Ordonnances de 1543.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
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You missed the point, which was there is no point to have a discussion when people do not have access to the same information.

As well, not everything is available in .pdf nor I am taking the time to transcribe, translate and screen shot materials or convert them from .pdf formats from what is a complicated legal/ historical proceeding.

Go teach for a university like I do and then you will have access to the materials, until then we have nothing more to discuss.

Here you go Servetus was denied legal counsel, I hope you read French.

“Si le criminel demande destre admis a ses justifications, que le Conseil regarde sil est de raison ou non” Ordonnances de 1543.
Lol. You work at a university not for the secret service.
Why do you think you have access to anything that any and everyone don't have?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Lol. You work at a university not for the secret service.
Why do you think you have access to anything that any and everyone don't have?
Well it would seem that way according to the information "some' have shared on this thread! LOL :D

Now I am not going to say to much on the "secret service" part, since some have thought I was a double agent on CC....long story.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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yeah well, I have it in the original French....go find that please
If you have it why do I need to find it?

Yes ma'am, I'll get right on it. tongue.png

What did yer last research assistant die of?
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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You missed the point, which was there is no point to have a discussion when people do not have access to the same information.

As well, not everything is available in .pdf nor I am taking the time to transcribe, translate and screen shot materials or convert them from .pdf formats from what is a complicated legal/ historical proceeding.

Go teach for a university like I do and then you will have access to the materials, until then we have nothing more to discuss.

Here you go Servetus was denied legal counsel, I hope you read French.

“Si le criminel demande destre admis a ses justifications, que le Conseil regarde sil est de raison ou non” Ordonnances de 1543.
No, actually it is you that made my point beautifully. More than I could have hoped.
I do read French. I'm fluent in fact in many languages. That copied and pasted excerpt does not speak at all in full to what you claim.

Why not tell us why Servitus was denied council? Because it was against the statutes of the time.
History of the Christian Church, vol. 8.

You say you are a professor at University? I know a number of tenured professors in Universities throughout the contiguous United States.

Most Universities today allow students to avail themselves of distance learning. Meaning, materials in any given subject are available on-line.
Where do you teach?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Because it was against the statutes of the time.
Nope that is not the reason and if you read French you would know why.:cool:

Just face it was a "show trial" and Servetus was found guilty under old testament laws and one would think Mr, Calvin so astute in the theological precepts and principles of the New Convenant would have known better.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Most Universities today allow students to avail themselves of distance learning. Meaning, materials in any given subject are available on-line.
Where do you teach?
Of course most everything is online, but one has to go into a secret chamber to view these most ancient documents. LOL

Canada.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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Did John Calvin have Servetus burned at the stake>>>>>>?

NO, actually the court at Geneva had ordered Servetus to be drawn and quartered........but Calvin asked for a more merciful death for Serv, so the court thought the sentence that had already been given to him as a heretic who denied the trinity....by the Catholics in France....a burning at the stake.

If anyone thinks Calvin ran the courts you know nothing of Geneva.