The Catholics and my conclusion
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Anybody can make mindless assertions and not be required to present intelligent arguments. Flaming zingers is another term. Headless chicken comments is another. Relative truth flowed directly from the so called reformation or you wouldn't have such embarrassing disunity. What you are claiming is there were no Christians for 1500 years which is a clear indication you like bashing Catholics out of ignorance.
"gross error"?? Gross sin, yes, but rarely. The only gross error you can confront are the ones in your head. It's unfortunate that forums are not the proper venue for solid education in matters of faith and morals when the "confronting" is done by rabid "Christian" anti-Catholics.
"gross error"?? Gross sin, yes, but rarely. The only gross error you can confront are the ones in your head. It's unfortunate that forums are not the proper venue for solid education in matters of faith and morals when the "confronting" is done by rabid "Christian" anti-Catholics.
I posted the following in another thread on Catholicism. It bears repeating:
The Catholic "church" teaches that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again for the remission of sins.
The Bible says Jesus was sacrificed only once, and for all time.
The Catholic "church" teaches Mary is a mediator.
The Bible says Jesus is the only mediator.
The Catholic "church" teaches Mary has never sinned.
The Bible says all have sinned, and that there is none righteous - not even one. The only one who has never sinned is God/Christ. The Bible also teaches Mary took an offering of a dove to the Temple for her SIN.
The Catholic "church" teaches there exists a purgatory to "cleanse" people with fire, of sins the blood of Jesus didn't cover.
The Bible says the blood of Jesus paid for every sin - the sins of the whole world.
The Catholic "church" teaches that no one can be saved outside of her.
The Bible says all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Just those five examples alone proves The Catholic "church" to be an abomination. One that is at war with God's Word. A "church" that has murdered countless people who have disagreed with her. One who has burned people at the stake for the "crime" of possessing a Bible, or translating the Bible so that others could read God's precious Word.
Sorry, but the differences between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are far too many and irreconcilable.
The Catholic "church" teaches that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again for the remission of sins.
The Bible says Jesus was sacrificed only once, and for all time.
The Catholic "church" teaches Mary is a mediator.
The Bible says Jesus is the only mediator.
The Catholic "church" teaches Mary has never sinned.
The Bible says all have sinned, and that there is none righteous - not even one. The only one who has never sinned is God/Christ. The Bible also teaches Mary took an offering of a dove to the Temple for her SIN.
The Catholic "church" teaches there exists a purgatory to "cleanse" people with fire, of sins the blood of Jesus didn't cover.
The Bible says the blood of Jesus paid for every sin - the sins of the whole world.
The Catholic "church" teaches that no one can be saved outside of her.
The Bible says all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Just those five examples alone proves The Catholic "church" to be an abomination. One that is at war with God's Word. A "church" that has murdered countless people who have disagreed with her. One who has burned people at the stake for the "crime" of possessing a Bible, or translating the Bible so that others could read God's precious Word.
Sorry, but the differences between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are far too many and irreconcilable.
Amen sister! Catholics do not believe that faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation, as epostle claims. Catholics would only agree with that statement "after" they "infuse" works "into" faith and wrap faith and works up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Then they would say faith alone, but it's really faith AND WORKS. Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors. 
When Catholics say that works are an integral part of justification, what they are really saying is that we are saved by works. Not works alone, but faith AND WORKS, in contradiction to Paul (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Paul and James do not contradict each other, yet epostle and the Roman Catholic church contradict the Scriptures. Once again, the harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-6; Romans 5:1 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He "accounts the sinner as righteous." James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do - "shown to be righteous." Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. I explained this more thoroughly in post #205.
The Council of Trent teaches that good works are not merely the fruit and signs of justification received by faith, as James teaches. The Roman Catholic church goes way beyond that. The Catholic faithful is taught to perform good works to maintain and increase personal righteousness by which he is ultimately accounted to have fully satisfied the Law of God and allowed into heaven (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24). Instead of demonstrating faith, his religious works done with the intent to gain merit only goes to show that he does not really trust Christ for salvation.
The idea of trying to dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and claiming they are two entirely different kinds of works and that we are saved by good works and just not by specific works of the law is bogus and is also a desperate attempt to get around the truth that we are saved through faith, NOT WORKS. More Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors. The Greek word for "works" is the same Greek word "ergon" (Strong's #2041) in Romans 3:20,28; Ephesians 2:9 and James 2 which means "work, labor, action, deed."
How can they be entirely different types of works when in James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Is giving a brother or sister things needed for the body (clothing and food) loving your neighbor as yourself? Is this not in the law? Leviticus 19:18 - ..but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Jesus said that one of the two great commandments is love your neighbor as yourself and along with loving God with all our heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:39) on these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
Moreover Paul could not have limited the concept of "works" to the Torah. He presented the Patriarch Abraham as the primary witness to his doctrine. He wrote:
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works of any kind) was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not faith and good works) is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:1-6).
In this context "justified by works" could not refer exclusively to obedience of the Torah, for Abraham lived many centuries before Moses. It is therefore wrong to force Paul’s concept of "not justified by works" exclusively to limited works in the Law of Moses. Clearly Paul applies the same principle to works in general. Abraham could not boast before God because he was justified by faith (accounted as righteous) and not by works (Romans 4:2-3); but Abraham was justified by works in a different sense - "shown to be righteous" in James chapter 2. The same applies to us all.
Roman Catholics love to use this sales pitch. Prior to Luther's time:
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."
Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
So epostle is not fooling anyone here "except the already fooled."
When Catholics say that works are an integral part of justification, what they are really saying is that we are saved by works. Not works alone, but faith AND WORKS, in contradiction to Paul (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Paul and James do not contradict each other, yet epostle and the Roman Catholic church contradict the Scriptures. Once again, the harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-6; Romans 5:1 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He "accounts the sinner as righteous." James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove/show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do - "shown to be righteous." Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. I explained this more thoroughly in post #205.
The Council of Trent teaches that good works are not merely the fruit and signs of justification received by faith, as James teaches. The Roman Catholic church goes way beyond that. The Catholic faithful is taught to perform good works to maintain and increase personal righteousness by which he is ultimately accounted to have fully satisfied the Law of God and allowed into heaven (Trent, session 6, chapter 16 and canon 24). Instead of demonstrating faith, his religious works done with the intent to gain merit only goes to show that he does not really trust Christ for salvation.
The idea of trying to dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and claiming they are two entirely different kinds of works and that we are saved by good works and just not by specific works of the law is bogus and is also a desperate attempt to get around the truth that we are saved through faith, NOT WORKS. More Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors.
The Greek word for "works" is the same Greek word "ergon" (Strong's #2041) in Romans 3:20,28; Ephesians 2:9 and James 2 which means "work, labor, action, deed." How can they be entirely different types of works when in James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Is giving a brother or sister things needed for the body (clothing and food) loving your neighbor as yourself? Is this not in the law? Leviticus 19:18 - ..but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Jesus said that one of the two great commandments is love your neighbor as yourself and along with loving God with all our heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:39) on these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.
Moreover Paul could not have limited the concept of "works" to the Torah. He presented the Patriarch Abraham as the primary witness to his doctrine. He wrote:
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works of any kind) was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not faith and good works) is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:1-6).
In this context "justified by works" could not refer exclusively to obedience of the Torah, for Abraham lived many centuries before Moses. It is therefore wrong to force Paul’s concept of "not justified by works" exclusively to limited works in the Law of Moses. Clearly Paul applies the same principle to works in general. Abraham could not boast before God because he was justified by faith (accounted as righteous) and not by works (Romans 4:2-3); but Abraham was justified by works in a different sense - "shown to be righteous" in James chapter 2. The same applies to us all.
Roman Catholics love to use this sales pitch. Prior to Luther's time:
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."
Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
So epostle is not fooling anyone here "except the already fooled."
Everybody is missing the point as to why Catholicism teaches "Justification by Faith alone" is wrong. The real reason the Catholics do this is because:
1. They have added books written between the Old and New Testaments. These are the Apocrypha books. Catholicism consider these books genuine.
2. Catholicism maintains that divine authority is to be found in the authorized Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, which is also classified as the "Word of God".
3. Divine authority (Infallibility) is given to the Pope when he speaks officially on matters of faith and morals.
4. When speaking or teaching in conjunction with the Pope and the orthodox Catholic Tradition, Roman Catholic bishops are also held to be infallible and hence, divinely authoritative.
5. Official Roman Catholic interpretation of the Bible (Catholic teaching) is considered to have divine warrant and authority.
In essence, all five of these sources can be summarized by the term Roman Catholic Tradition.
This is the main reasons why epostle teaches what he teaches. Its because he actually follows more of what Catholicism teaches and less of what God says. This is why epostle hates the doctrine of "Justification by Faith alone".
We must consider the sources epostle is using in his defense of "Justification by Works". Its what Catholicism says that epostle follows, not what God says. This is why it is hard for epostle to accept the Truth from God.
Instead of arguing with epostle we need to be praying for his Soul. We need to ask God to shine His Truth on epostle so he too can accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
1. They have added books written between the Old and New Testaments. These are the Apocrypha books. Catholicism consider these books genuine.
2. Catholicism maintains that divine authority is to be found in the authorized Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, which is also classified as the "Word of God".
3. Divine authority (Infallibility) is given to the Pope when he speaks officially on matters of faith and morals.
4. When speaking or teaching in conjunction with the Pope and the orthodox Catholic Tradition, Roman Catholic bishops are also held to be infallible and hence, divinely authoritative.
5. Official Roman Catholic interpretation of the Bible (Catholic teaching) is considered to have divine warrant and authority.
In essence, all five of these sources can be summarized by the term Roman Catholic Tradition.
This is the main reasons why epostle teaches what he teaches. Its because he actually follows more of what Catholicism teaches and less of what God says. This is why epostle hates the doctrine of "Justification by Faith alone".
We must consider the sources epostle is using in his defense of "Justification by Works". Its what Catholicism says that epostle follows, not what God says. This is why it is hard for epostle to accept the Truth from God.
Instead of arguing with epostle we need to be praying for his Soul. We need to ask God to shine His Truth on epostle so he too can accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
Also Mec99, if the Catholics like epostle do accept the Truth from God, they do run the risk of being excommunicated from the Catholic Church which means they can NEVER enter into Heaven.
Its true and a sad fact that Catholics like epostle see the Roman Catholic Church as the ONLY way to enter into Heaven.
Its the Roman Catholic Church that is their God and they even believe God Himself is subjected to the Roman Catholic Church!
Its true and a sad fact that Catholics like epostle see the Roman Catholic Church as the ONLY way to enter into Heaven.
Its the Roman Catholic Church that is their God and they even believe God Himself is subjected to the Roman Catholic Church!
K
Sorry blue_ladybug but I would not put it that way as there are some branches of the Catholic church that do not agree with all the teachings and also speak up against some of the things the Pope says.
It is a small portion of the church but they do still exist and I would have never know this except for the fact I was in the church for 5 years and left because of the bad teachings and then doing in depth research on the church.
Yes there are a number of things they do that conflicts with the Word of God and thus should be exposed and handled, but we are to do it in a loving and respectful manner.
Because if we dig down into it, even though the Catholic errors in teaching is so openly discussed, we can actually see false or wrong teaching in pretty much every single denomination or doctrinal teaching out there.
I for one have gotten into hot water with some on here for exposing the bad parts in the teachings of the doctrines of OSAS (Calvinism) and eternal security (Augustine).
I see some spending way to much time testing and dismantling other churches or doctrines but not testing their own churches teachings. This is very dangerous if not done !!!
It is a small portion of the church but they do still exist and I would have never know this except for the fact I was in the church for 5 years and left because of the bad teachings and then doing in depth research on the church.
Yes there are a number of things they do that conflicts with the Word of God and thus should be exposed and handled, but we are to do it in a loving and respectful manner.
Because if we dig down into it, even though the Catholic errors in teaching is so openly discussed, we can actually see false or wrong teaching in pretty much every single denomination or doctrinal teaching out there.
I for one have gotten into hot water with some on here for exposing the bad parts in the teachings of the doctrines of OSAS (Calvinism) and eternal security (Augustine).
I see some spending way to much time testing and dismantling other churches or doctrines but not testing their own churches teachings. This is very dangerous if not done !!!
K
First it is not your Church it is the Lord Jesus Christ Church (body of believers)..........
Second when you speak of the denomination or building you go to it should be written with a small "c", as a denomination and/or building is not the Church.
Also are you not the one I talked to awhile back who claimed to have the ability of discernment yet falsely claimed on me I am not a follower of Christ ???
Do you believe salvation is by grace alone or by grace through faith ???
Also what do you and your church teach about what a true faith in Jesus looks like, does it agree with John 3:21 and Luke 6:46-49 that only those who does what He says are true believers, or does it say nothing has to be done ???
Second when you speak of the denomination or building you go to it should be written with a small "c", as a denomination and/or building is not the Church.
Also are you not the one I talked to awhile back who claimed to have the ability of discernment yet falsely claimed on me I am not a follower of Christ ???
Do you believe salvation is by grace alone or by grace through faith ???
Also what do you and your church teach about what a true faith in Jesus looks like, does it agree with John 3:21 and Luke 6:46-49 that only those who does what He says are true believers, or does it say nothing has to be done ???
Galatians 2:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Tell me KennethC do you believe we are Justified by our Faith or by our Works?
Did you know KennethC that the Faith we have is NOT from us that instead the Faith we have in God was GIVEN to us by God?
Romans 12:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Faith and Grace both come from God.
Are you saying through these verses, John 3:21 and Luke 6:46-49, that we Work for our Grace and Faith?
Clearly God gives us everything we need to believe in Him and follow Him.
Yes i do have discernment and from most of what you teach i do not see you having received Salvation.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Tell me KennethC do you believe we are Justified by our Faith or by our Works?
Did you know KennethC that the Faith we have is NOT from us that instead the Faith we have in God was GIVEN to us by God?
Romans 12:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Faith and Grace both come from God.
Are you saying through these verses, John 3:21 and Luke 6:46-49, that we Work for our Grace and Faith?
Clearly God gives us everything we need to believe in Him and follow Him.
Yes i do have discernment and from most of what you teach i do not see you having received Salvation.
Did you know that everyone who teaches a different Gospel then the one given to us by the Holy Spirit is accursed?
Galatians 1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Everyone teaching Mary was born without sin, and Mary is a Mediator, and Mary never died and was assumed into Heaven is accursed!
Galatians 2:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Everyone teaching Justification is by Works are accursed!
Galatians 1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Everyone teaching Mary was born without sin, and Mary is a Mediator, and Mary never died and was assumed into Heaven is accursed!
Galatians 2:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Everyone teaching Justification is by Works are accursed!