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K
Read John 1:11-13 Jesus came to His own people, but His own people would not receive Him. So God decided that in order to be His people you no longer had to physically be a Jew. Now He is willing to make anybody part of His people through spiritual means, no longer by physical means. Jews now have to become God's people in the same way the Gentiles do. Colossians 3:11 says, Here there are no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, slave nor free, but Christ is all and is in all.
This is what Jesus meant by the wedding banquet. Those who were invited would not come, so He sent an invitation to those on the street corners, just anybody who will come, so that there will be guests at the wedding. The Jews are no longer His people, His people are spiritual Jews. But physical Jews are welcome to become God's people just like anyone else is. Romans 11:24 discusses this.
This is what Jesus meant by the wedding banquet. Those who were invited would not come, so He sent an invitation to those on the street corners, just anybody who will come, so that there will be guests at the wedding. The Jews are no longer His people, His people are spiritual Jews. But physical Jews are welcome to become God's people just like anyone else is. Romans 11:24 discusses this.
S
I am very disappointed that you are not sure on this. You have to know by now that there is no salvation outside of grace through faith.
This is not a question that you should even take a moment considering. It shames the work of Christ to do so.
It would imply that Christ died only for the sake of the Gentile, because the Jews are already universally covered...
This is not a question that you should even take a moment considering. It shames the work of Christ to do so.
It would imply that Christ died only for the sake of the Gentile, because the Jews are already universally covered...
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S
Because you claim Dispensationalism, I will use a dispensation mindset to explain it to you.
Let us say that Jeremiah is prophesying to only ethnic Israel when he says "Israel".
Jeremiah 50 says that only the remnant will be pardoned, and in this way all of Israel will be pure,
because the rest are cut off from Israel!!!
Let us say that Jeremiah is prophesying to only ethnic Israel when he says "Israel".
Jeremiah 50 says that only the remnant will be pardoned, and in this way all of Israel will be pure,
because the rest are cut off from Israel!!!
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S
In your well quoted chapter 11 of Romans, please read verse 22-23.
Then remind yourself that Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through me."
Though it is incorrect, let's pretend that this message of Christ only applies to this current dispensation. If it applies to this dispensation, then there is no secondary salvation running alongside the Covenant that Jesus ratified with His Blood. There is only one Salvation.
The New Covenant was promised to Israel as read in Jeremiah,
and yet given to the Church... which should make you recognize who God views as Israel.
What God considers as "all": is the final product.
The rest that aren't included in the final product: He say that He never knew.
By focusing on one verse as your definition of Jews and Israel in this current dispensation, you are neglecting the teaching that Christ said regarding the Jews, and what the rest of the Scriptures say regarding the Jews and Israel.
You need to accept the whole, not simply one part. And they all do fit together.
Then remind yourself that Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through me."
Though it is incorrect, let's pretend that this message of Christ only applies to this current dispensation. If it applies to this dispensation, then there is no secondary salvation running alongside the Covenant that Jesus ratified with His Blood. There is only one Salvation.
The New Covenant was promised to Israel as read in Jeremiah,
and yet given to the Church... which should make you recognize who God views as Israel.
What God considers as "all": is the final product.
The rest that aren't included in the final product: He say that He never knew.
By focusing on one verse as your definition of Jews and Israel in this current dispensation, you are neglecting the teaching that Christ said regarding the Jews, and what the rest of the Scriptures say regarding the Jews and Israel.
You need to accept the whole, not simply one part. And they all do fit together.
Absolutely, what jews define as 'israel' and what people of other faiths believe can be absolutely opposite.
It may refer to the whole earth rather than a piece of real estate in the mid-east.
And the issue of Tiqqun Olam has yet to be brought up. And while we are at it lets look at the issue of the high rate of atheism in Judaism and that includes the likes of Rabbi Miriam Jerris who happily calls herself an atheist.
Or the likes of Hagee and 'christian zionism' which expects Christians to devote themselves to blessing jews.
If you really want the rundown on the likes of Jerris and Hagee check out Brother Nathanaels' clips on YouTube.
He should know - he was born and raised a jew but now is Christian
It may refer to the whole earth rather than a piece of real estate in the mid-east.
And the issue of Tiqqun Olam has yet to be brought up. And while we are at it lets look at the issue of the high rate of atheism in Judaism and that includes the likes of Rabbi Miriam Jerris who happily calls herself an atheist.
Or the likes of Hagee and 'christian zionism' which expects Christians to devote themselves to blessing jews.
If you really want the rundown on the likes of Jerris and Hagee check out Brother Nathanaels' clips on YouTube.
He should know - he was born and raised a jew but now is Christian
K
I responded late last night and really wasn't feeling well or up to answering questions.I shouldnt have said anything when I was feeling ill.I will try again today.
Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy and 2) a distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.
Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by faith—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the church. They believe that the promises God made to Israel (for land, many descendants, and blessings) in the Old Testament will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation chapter 20. Dispensationalists believe that just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (Romans 9-11).
Parts of this I have already stated.I believe salvation is by faith,I stated that in an earlier post.
sing this system as a basis, dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1–Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4–Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a clear distinction between Israel and the church, and organizes the Bible into the different dispensations it presents.
Dispensationalism maintains:
- a fundamental distinction between Israel and the church, i.e. there are two peoples of God with two different destinies, earthly Israel and the spiritual church,
- a fundamental distinction between the Law and Grace, i.e. they are mutually exclusive ideas,
- the view that the New Testament church is a parenthesis in God's plan which was not foreseen by the Old Testament, and
- a distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, i.e. the rapture of the church at Christ's coming "in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17) precedes the "official" second coming (to the earth) by 7 years of tribulation.
The dispensational movement was therefore fueled by the re-establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. It has grown in popularity particularly since 1967, coinciding with the Arab-Israeli Six Day War.
Dispensationalism teaches that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a physical event, by which a world-wide kingdom will be established in human history, geographically centered in Jerusalem. Dispensationalists teach that the Second Coming will be a two step process. In the first step, Christ returns toresurrect the blessed dead and rapture the living believers from the Earth. After this, a seven year period of tribulation occurs, climaxing in the Battle of Armageddon. In the second step, Christ intervenes at the Battle of Armageddon and establishes a literal 1000-year millennial kingdom on earth.
As I also stated some believe all Israel will be saved,some do not.
“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins'” (Romans 11:26-27).
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I myself am stuck on "all Israel" but it may be a remnant.I grew up with the remnant teaching.Either way I have never stated that salvation wasn't through faith or that unbelievers will make it into heaven.Never said that.
[/FONT]We take the literal approach. The passages that speak of future Israel are difficult to view as figurative for the Church. The classic text (Romans 11:16–24) depicts Israel as distinct from the Church: the “natural branches” are the Jews, and the “wild branches” are the Gentiles. The “olive tree” is the collective people of God. The “natural branches” (Jews) are “cut off” the tree for unbelief, and the “wild branches” (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. This has the effect of making the Jews “jealous” and then drawing them to faith in Christ, so they might be “grafted in” again and receive their promised inheritance. The “natural branches” are still distinct from the “wild branches,” so that God’s covenant with His people is literally fulfilled.Romans 11:26–29, citingIsaiah 59:20–21;27:9;Jeremiah 31:33–34, says:
“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins .’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”
Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation (see alsoRomans 11:12). Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8;11:5). This conversion will coincide with the fulfillment of Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).
When Paul says Israel will be “saved” inRomans 11:26, he refers to their deliverance from sin (verse 27) as they accept the Savior, their Messiah, in the end times. Moses said, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (Deuteronomy 30:6). Israel’s physical inheritance of the land promised to Abraham will be an integral part of God’s ultimate plan (Deuteronomy 30:3–5).
A lot of information there so I will start in a new post.
K
From now on I will be careful of giving flip answers and take time to answer.Continuing on...
So how will “all Israel be saved”? The details of this deliverance are filled out in passages such asZechariah 8—14andRevelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel isZechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs at the end of the tribulation prophesied inDaniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event inRevelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized inRevelation 7:1–8. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).
After Israel is spiritually restored, Christ will establish His millennial kingdom on earth. Israel will be regathered from the ends of the earth (Isaiah 11:12;62:10). The symbolic “dry bones” of Ezekiel’s vision will be brought together, covered with flesh, and miraculously resuscitated (Ezekiel 37:1–14). As God promised, the salvation of Israel will involve both a spiritual awakening and a geographical home: “I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land” (Ezekiel 37:14).
In the Day of the Lord, God will “reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). Jesus Christ will return destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). Sinners will be judged, and the faithful remnant of Israel will be set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21).Isaiah 12is their song of deliverance; Zion will rule over all the nations under the banner of Messiah the King.
Once again salvation is though faith in Christ. Never said it wasn't.I never said unbelievers would enter heaven.I hope this is a better explanation of my belief. Have a blessed day.
So how will “all Israel be saved”? The details of this deliverance are filled out in passages such asZechariah 8—14andRevelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel isZechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs at the end of the tribulation prophesied inDaniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event inRevelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized inRevelation 7:1–8. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).
After Israel is spiritually restored, Christ will establish His millennial kingdom on earth. Israel will be regathered from the ends of the earth (Isaiah 11:12;62:10). The symbolic “dry bones” of Ezekiel’s vision will be brought together, covered with flesh, and miraculously resuscitated (Ezekiel 37:1–14). As God promised, the salvation of Israel will involve both a spiritual awakening and a geographical home: “I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land” (Ezekiel 37:14).
In the Day of the Lord, God will “reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). Jesus Christ will return destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). Sinners will be judged, and the faithful remnant of Israel will be set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21).Isaiah 12is their song of deliverance; Zion will rule over all the nations under the banner of Messiah the King.
Once again salvation is though faith in Christ. Never said it wasn't.I never said unbelievers would enter heaven.I hope this is a better explanation of my belief. Have a blessed day.
Well, when you look at the text, it does not state that all Jews will believe.
It states all Israel will be saved.
But in the context of Ro 9-11, not all Israel is Israel (9:6).
So all true Israel will be saved.
Yes it does, however the only plan given in Ro 9-11 (9:27; 11:25-26) is the saving of the remnant, all true Israel.
Well, actually, I don't believe in any theories, I believe only in what the NT presents.
And it presents only those who believe in Christ are the sons of God, his chosen people.
And, of course, I am not prejudiced against the Jews
anymore than I am against the Gentiles, at least for the simple reason that I don't know in either group who is the remnant that is being saved, and it would be foolish to be prejudiced against anyone, Gentile or Jew.
But don't forget, generic bodies don't repent, only individuals do.
Ok. . .I guess I got confused by your reference to "the belief that the Jews killed Christ."
Sorry.
I fall in the group that believes Ro 9:27, 11:25-26 show only a remnant, the true Israel, will be saved.
It states all Israel will be saved.
But in the context of Ro 9-11, not all Israel is Israel (9:6).
So all true Israel will be saved.
Yes it does, however the only plan given in Ro 9-11 (9:27; 11:25-26) is the saving of the remnant, all true Israel.
Well, actually, I don't believe in any theories, I believe only in what the NT presents.
And it presents only those who believe in Christ are the sons of God, his chosen people.
And, of course, I am not prejudiced against the Jews
anymore than I am against the Gentiles, at least for the simple reason that I don't know in either group who is the remnant that is being saved, and it would be foolish to be prejudiced against anyone, Gentile or Jew.
But don't forget, generic bodies don't repent, only individuals do.
Ok. . .I guess I got confused by your reference to "the belief that the Jews killed Christ."
Sorry.
I fall in the group that believes Ro 9:27, 11:25-26 show only a remnant, the true Israel, will be saved.
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May I present something for your consideration regarding "spiritualizing."
The NT writers often "spiritualize" the text, as in:
Ro 9:25-26; 1Pe 2:10 - both spiritualize the text of Hos 2:23.
Heb 8:6-13, 10:15-18 - spiritualize Jer 31:31-34; Ge 17:8 given to Israel, as to the Church.
Ac 15:13-18 - spiritualizes Am 9:11-12 given to Israel, as to the Gentiles.
1Co 10:1-4 - spiritualizes the OT texts of Ex 14:22, 16:4, 17:6.
Dt 10:16, 30:6; Jer 4:4, 9:25-26; Ro 2:26-29 - God spiritualizes the circumcision of Ge 17:10-14.
Gal 3:16, 29 - spiritualizes Abraham's seed who receive the promise.
Gal 4:27 - spiritualizes Isa 54:1 given to Israel, as to the Church.
1Co 9:8-10; 1Tim 5:17-18 - spiritualizes Dt 25:4 regarding oxen,
as regarding the preachers of the gospel (1Co 9:14).
Actually, to the NT writers, a correct understanding of the OT often required "spiritualizing" the text.
So are we wiser than they that we should not allow "spiritual" interpretation of the OT?
"Spiritual" understanding of an OT text (old wine) is often the only way it does not contradict the
certain and unequivocal NT teaching (new wine), spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers.
The NT writers often "spiritualize" the text, as in:
Ro 9:25-26; 1Pe 2:10 - both spiritualize the text of Hos 2:23.
Heb 8:6-13, 10:15-18 - spiritualize Jer 31:31-34; Ge 17:8 given to Israel, as to the Church.
Ac 15:13-18 - spiritualizes Am 9:11-12 given to Israel, as to the Gentiles.
1Co 10:1-4 - spiritualizes the OT texts of Ex 14:22, 16:4, 17:6.
Dt 10:16, 30:6; Jer 4:4, 9:25-26; Ro 2:26-29 - God spiritualizes the circumcision of Ge 17:10-14.
Gal 3:16, 29 - spiritualizes Abraham's seed who receive the promise.
Gal 4:27 - spiritualizes Isa 54:1 given to Israel, as to the Church.
1Co 9:8-10; 1Tim 5:17-18 - spiritualizes Dt 25:4 regarding oxen,
as regarding the preachers of the gospel (1Co 9:14).
Actually, to the NT writers, a correct understanding of the OT often required "spiritualizing" the text.
So are we wiser than they that we should not allow "spiritual" interpretation of the OT?
"Spiritual" understanding of an OT text (old wine) is often the only way it does not contradict the
certain and unequivocal NT teaching (new wine), spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers.
Kaylagrl, dear sis......?
Those who begin to teach things as fact, and press it, (from my experience) are picking and choosing to create a super doctrine.
They feel good about it, so they push it....usually skipping over most of the Bible's harmony.
The whole Bible is important, including introductions to each book, .....even the book of Revelation!
Christ is "revealing" His ultimate plan in it.
All text is there for our benefit.
What I am presenting is nothing new.....nor does it take away from the Bible even slightly.
The whole Bible is good.
But, most are just adding to some old church doctrine of the past few hundred years, or filling it in with odd guesswork.
Never relying on their Bible and the Holy Spirit, to give them it's key.
Using terrible labels, and man made groups to justify why they believe what they believe.
You and I have been told to trust men....well, .....men lie, my Bible does not.
Don't trust me even....pour over scripture......trust the Bible and God.
1 Corinthians 1:1
1.Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes ourbrother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both THEIRS and OURS :
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is speaking to 2 groups in this.
Same book, he goes on.......
1 Corinthians 7:10-16
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in suchcases. But God has called us to peace. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
Once again, two groups.
Otherwise the verses above ARE confusing?? Do we stay or do we leave our spouse???
Watch someone try to explain this away....which is cool...I am not God, nor do I save.
The beauty of free will.
THIS, clears up what sounds like a contradiction within 3 sentences......Paul is not confusing!.....he is talking to the remnant(who will convert and a certain group,)...... and us Christians.
If one does not see this obvious speech pattern, then they just explain away why Paul can sound confusing in some of his Epistles.
No need to actually search the Bible on why that may be, I guess?
BTW, If anyone tries to say that in the case above..." if anything is confusing then Paul is talking just to the Corinthians, in some parts"...well, THEN that logic has to apply to all of his Epistles, because we are not allowed to pick and choose what is what to fit our doctrine.
A pattern to Paul's Epistles has been established....with just this one example above.
If Paul is talking to separate people in Corinthians, can he ....just maybe?....be doing the same in certain/ other epistles?
There is a beautiful, perfect flow through the Bible.
Harmony.
It gives a timeline and tells the story of God's plan for mankind.
We are all "Israel" or "Jews" or any of that??? Really?
What sounds more logical, Paul speaking to the remnant (of his time too, btw) that will be Christians( and throughout history.....his time.....present to future) plus Christians?....or we are all "Israel"??
Give me a break....sorry.
At least my point, doesn't explain away tons of scripture to the contrary on that view.
Not only that, I say nothing that takes away from ALL scripture...because we ARE to read it all and learn from it.
This thought is usually debated because people want to feel "special"...that's all it boils down to.
We are special......but didn't Jesus choose Apostles to carry out His work?
They served a purpose....just like a certain group does/will (now? future?.. depends on how you see it?)
God has kept His promise to Israel/Jacob........we are not "Israel" though.
We are Christians.......Jesus is keeping His promise to us with the cross.
Two separate groups Sis.
Those who begin to teach things as fact, and press it, (from my experience) are picking and choosing to create a super doctrine.
They feel good about it, so they push it....usually skipping over most of the Bible's harmony.
The whole Bible is important, including introductions to each book, .....even the book of Revelation!
Christ is "revealing" His ultimate plan in it.
All text is there for our benefit.
What I am presenting is nothing new.....nor does it take away from the Bible even slightly.
The whole Bible is good.
But, most are just adding to some old church doctrine of the past few hundred years, or filling it in with odd guesswork.
Never relying on their Bible and the Holy Spirit, to give them it's key.
Using terrible labels, and man made groups to justify why they believe what they believe.
You and I have been told to trust men....well, .....men lie, my Bible does not.
Don't trust me even....pour over scripture......trust the Bible and God.
1 Corinthians 1:1
1.Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes ourbrother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both THEIRS and OURS :
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is speaking to 2 groups in this.
Same book, he goes on.......
1 Corinthians 7:10-16
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in suchcases. But God has called us to peace. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
Once again, two groups.
Otherwise the verses above ARE confusing?? Do we stay or do we leave our spouse???
Watch someone try to explain this away....which is cool...I am not God, nor do I save.
The beauty of free will.
THIS, clears up what sounds like a contradiction within 3 sentences......Paul is not confusing!.....he is talking to the remnant(who will convert and a certain group,)...... and us Christians.
If one does not see this obvious speech pattern, then they just explain away why Paul can sound confusing in some of his Epistles.
No need to actually search the Bible on why that may be, I guess?
BTW, If anyone tries to say that in the case above..." if anything is confusing then Paul is talking just to the Corinthians, in some parts"...well, THEN that logic has to apply to all of his Epistles, because we are not allowed to pick and choose what is what to fit our doctrine.
A pattern to Paul's Epistles has been established....with just this one example above.
If Paul is talking to separate people in Corinthians, can he ....just maybe?....be doing the same in certain/ other epistles?
There is a beautiful, perfect flow through the Bible.
Harmony.
It gives a timeline and tells the story of God's plan for mankind.
We are all "Israel" or "Jews" or any of that??? Really?
What sounds more logical, Paul speaking to the remnant (of his time too, btw) that will be Christians( and throughout history.....his time.....present to future) plus Christians?....or we are all "Israel"??
Give me a break....sorry.
At least my point, doesn't explain away tons of scripture to the contrary on that view.
Not only that, I say nothing that takes away from ALL scripture...because we ARE to read it all and learn from it.
This thought is usually debated because people want to feel "special"...that's all it boils down to.
We are special......but didn't Jesus choose Apostles to carry out His work?
They served a purpose....just like a certain group does/will (now? future?.. depends on how you see it?)
God has kept His promise to Israel/Jacob........we are not "Israel" though.
We are Christians.......Jesus is keeping His promise to us with the cross.
Two separate groups Sis.
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S
1 Corinthians 1 is not referencing Jews and Gentiles at all. It is referencing the local Corinthians and those who ministered to them as one group, and those from all places who call on the name of the Lord as the second group.
This passage is focusing on the unity of the global Church, NOT the disunity of Jew and Greek.
1 Corinthians 7:12 "Now the rest" refers DIRECTLY to verse 10 "Now to the married".
The two groups discussed are: those married as group 1, and those unmarried as group 2.
I speak confidently on the matter because I am confident in the truth of it.
It's not an issue of salvational importance, but it is also an issue that is a great blessing, and should not be compromised or spoken of without confidence.
Claiming "tons of Scripture" contradict the unity of all saints as One Body does not equal you providing those Scriptures. I say confidently that no Scripture contradicts the singleness of the Faith, and Oneness of Salvation, and the lack of division between the Remnant.
This passage is focusing on the unity of the global Church, NOT the disunity of Jew and Greek.
1 Corinthians 7:12 "Now the rest" refers DIRECTLY to verse 10 "Now to the married".
The two groups discussed are: those married as group 1, and those unmarried as group 2.
I speak confidently on the matter because I am confident in the truth of it.
It's not an issue of salvational importance, but it is also an issue that is a great blessing, and should not be compromised or spoken of without confidence.
Claiming "tons of Scripture" contradict the unity of all saints as One Body does not equal you providing those Scriptures. I say confidently that no Scripture contradicts the singleness of the Faith, and Oneness of Salvation, and the lack of division between the Remnant.
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You're kidding right?
Wow, ....I just covered that in my note.
Sorry, what you saying is a contradiction, sis.
Paul is addressing the church of Corinth, in Corinthians? Yes,..... and US.
Romans, .....Paul is addressing the Romans.....is that separate?... like your logic to Corinthians?
Is it just the Romans now.....?
Or do we go back to "it's to all us" now?
We can not pick and choose how/who any of Paul's epistles goes out to.
He clearly states who is addressing though, by certain names/groups in the introduction.
Yet, all of them are to Christians.
That is the key Sis.....I guess I'd put this under the "mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Because if Paul wanted to be upfront, my guess, he would have said that in the introduction.
Most of his epistles are to all......some are separated into speech patterns to two groups.
That whole logic that Corinthians are to the Corinthians, and the rest of the epistles shifts around to fit us?, ....not good sis.
Wow, ....I just covered that in my note.
Sorry, what you saying is a contradiction, sis.
Paul is addressing the church of Corinth, in Corinthians? Yes,..... and US.
Romans, .....Paul is addressing the Romans.....is that separate?... like your logic to Corinthians?
Is it just the Romans now.....?
Or do we go back to "it's to all us" now?
We can not pick and choose how/who any of Paul's epistles goes out to.
He clearly states who is addressing though, by certain names/groups in the introduction.
Yet, all of them are to Christians.
That is the key Sis.....I guess I'd put this under the "mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Because if Paul wanted to be upfront, my guess, he would have said that in the introduction.
Most of his epistles are to all......some are separated into speech patterns to two groups.
That whole logic that Corinthians are to the Corinthians, and the rest of the epistles shifts around to fit us?, ....not good sis.
S
You seem to agree that the Remnant includes both Jews and Gentiles. If so, then the whole debate is nullified, as the OT promises are always unto the children of promise, not simply those of natural descent. And we have been adopted into this group.
The existence of "groups" isn't the problem. The denial of the "common" is the problem.
The existence of "groups" isn't the problem. The denial of the "common" is the problem.
S
Upon reading Romans 9-11 and realizing the spiritual nature of the labels "Jew" and "Israel" as opposed to their common usage,
and reading how the New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah, but it was given to the Church instead of physical "Israel" or physical "Judah",
then we should begin to see that God does not view labels the same way that we do,
and that the Church has inherited what was promised to Israel, because Christ is the fulfillment of Israel and we are co-heirs with Christ.
and reading how the New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah, but it was given to the Church instead of physical "Israel" or physical "Judah",
then we should begin to see that God does not view labels the same way that we do,
and that the Church has inherited what was promised to Israel, because Christ is the fulfillment of Israel and we are co-heirs with Christ.
K
We're seeing the same verses in a different light.I dont think we'll change each others minds.lol But I do thank you for keep the thread friendly and not being angry and defensive in your posts.Its nice not to have name calling and shouting. I do read and look up what you share even though I still see things from a dispensationalist view. Well spell check is trying to correct me but not giving any suggestions,some help he is! Dispensationalist ? You get my drift.
