The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

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Feb 28, 2020
33
11
8
#1
1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
 

Gojira

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2021
5,716
2,307
113
Mesa, AZ
#2
1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
I agree with this. I'm a post-Tribber.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,957
1,387
113
Midwest
#3
HIS WORD IS CLEAR
Amen, Very Clear to me [ in all 16 study sections ]:

1a) Peace With God!
1b) Which Bible version should I use?
2) According to All These Bible study Rules
3) Three 'ages' Rightly Divided
4) Which Gospel 'makes way' for which gospel?
5) Great Tribulation, Or: tribulations/Great Grace Departure?
6) Departure 'expectations'
7) Heavenly Uplook for the Body Of Christ
8) Looking, Patiently waiting, and watching For 'Blessed Hope' (or 'signs'?)
9) God's Removal Of His Body Of Christ!:
10) The Day Of Christ vs Day Of The Lord vs Day Of God
11) Confidence in death/resurrection Or in living/glorification
12) No 'warning' Imminence
13) Two 'Trumps of God' In The Age of Grace
14) Meeting Christ 'in the air'
15) Preparation for 'Judgment Of The Entire Body Of Christ'
16) Post Departure Deceptions
+
Summary Conclusion Of pre-trib:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Willing to humbly and kindly discuss any or all, if you wish...

Amen.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
805
292
63
Pennsylvania
#4
I have some questions?

Is there people with flesh and blood in the 1000 year reign Christ and where do they come from?

You speak of the Trumpet Judgements but what about the Vial or Bowl judgements?

How does the Lord shorten the days.

You spoke of the Blessed hope I assume from Daniel 12:12 and could you explain the 1335 days
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
#5
I have some questions?

Is there people with flesh and blood in the 1000 year reign Christ and where do they come from?
in the historic premill view they would come from Zechariah 14:16. the remaining people from the nations who go against Israel will enter the kingdom in the flesh.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
805
292
63
Pennsylvania
#6
in the historic premill view they would come from Zechariah 14:16. the remaining people from the nations who go against Israel will enter the kingdom in the flesh.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you mix this view with a post-tribulation view?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,107
4,914
113
#7
1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
Thorough post and Of course there isnt a single scripture in the Bible to contradict it. One of the clearest points of doctrine in scripture is that Jesus will return at the end of the world after the tribulations conclude just before his wrath arrives to consume the wicked

don’t understand where the idea of a pre trib ever came from honestly and never heard a legitimate scripture to even show why people think the opposite of what it says so clearly
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,957
1,387
113
Midwest
#8
...don’t understand where the idea of a pre trib ever came from honestly and never heard a legitimate scripture to even show why people think the opposite...
Precious friend, I am sorry you must have missed post # 3, showing the
outline of our 17-part study, comparing "The Clear Word" Scriptural
Differences of Two Different Events belonging to Two Different
'Dispensations' Of God?

Hence, we believe pre-trib rapture of The Body Of Christ, Concluding
with, not "a legitimate Scripture," but, With About 100 Plain and Clear
Legitimate
[ And, Very Thorough ] Scriptures:



And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, and In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
!

Amen.

We pray that you, and @Medad, will review our opposite view prayerfully
and Carefully, Because Of This:

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,107
4,914
113
#9
Precious friend, I am sorry you must have missed post # 3, showing the
outline of our 17-part study, comparing "The Clear Word" Scriptural
Differences of Two Different Events belonging to Two Different
'Dispensations' Of God?

Hence, we believe pre-trib rapture of The Body Of Christ, Concluding
with, not "a legitimate Scripture," but, With About 100 Plain and Clear
Legitimate
[ And, Very Thorough ] Scriptures:



And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, and In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
!

Amen.

We pray that you, and @Medad, will review our opposite view prayerfully
and Carefully, Because Of This:

View attachment 261007
In prefer to believe what the Bible actually says as to someone’s contrary view I’m in a Bible discussion forum because I believe what it says all of the scriptures say the same thing I’m here for what the Bible teaches, not to move away from it into contrary opinion

The subject of the tribulation Jesus told his disciples they would go through and afterwards he would return and father his elect , isnt mysterious to me because I just read what they all said about it and believe it all of the scriptures the op references are very clear I’ve read them .

There’s no reason for me to move from what’s so clearly taught in scripture so I would t hold my breath on that part I’ve been here more than two years I’ve been involved in many many many pre trib post trib discussions

I’ve never seen any doctrine in the Bible to contradict what Jesus and his apostles taught about the matter of the tribulations relation to Jesus gathering his elect from all of heaven and all of earth

it’s strange to me we would never even speak of “ a great tribulation “ or Jesus gathering together his people when he returns after that “ u less he said it to begin with but then we won’t accept what it is he said about the subject we take the subject and then explain our opinion of it what I mean is

a Jesus told his disciples of a great tribulation that was coming upon them all he told them plainly “ you will go through these things through this great tribulation I’m explaining to you , but after you have gone through them after this great tribulation I’ve just explained you must go through and endure , then I’ll come and gether together all my people who are in heaven and in earth and buried in the earth

But then we take the subject of a great tribulation that. I believers will endure through or suffer in but they’ll be magically whisked off the earth before that happens ect ect

Until see some scripture that says something it’s hard for me to accept what someone’s telling me when it’s not the same thing I’m probably just old and stubborn lol

please don’t receive this as an offense it is t intended as one but I have a very simple and valid point . The Bible teaches very plain and clear doctrine about the subjects we discuss , when people are telling me the opposite of what it says it’s really hard for me to hear what they are saying

i don’t know the whole Bible and im sure I understand less than many others out it. I’ve always asked for the scriptures and every time they all say the same thing when “the rapture “ is the subject they all agree with what Jesus said would happen when he was telling them bout the great tribulation they would endure through after he left nd about the perpetual tribulation in the world until he returned it all agrees with what he said

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s always the same sequence in scripture when the writer is discussing the subject of the gathering of the church it’s always afterwards at the end at the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns from heaven

It’s always the same

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:( the term “rapture” literally comes from these verses ) and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

especially in Paul’s writings it’s hard for me to then agree with a contrary opinion . The whole doctrine about the great tribulation comes from Jesus telling his disciples what they would certainly go through but if they endured through till the end in faith they would be saved

He nEver told them “ you’ll not go through these things he was telling then you will certainly go through these things “ read more of what Jesus taught about all this stuff brother but do it as if you don’t already understand it and let what he’s teaching be what God taught

Jesus is never wrong about stuff he’s always the source of what they were talking about in the epistles
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,957
1,387
113
Midwest
#10
In prefer to believe what the Bible actually says as to someone’s contrary view I’m in a Bible discussion forum because I believe what it says all of the scriptures say the same thing I’m here for what the Bible teaches, not to move away from it into contrary opinion
Precious friend, you and I are "on the same page then," as I believe the Bible
as I studied It, and will not "move away from It," either, going over to the
contrary 'opinion/view' of post-trib rapture of The Body of Christ. Amen.
I’m probably just old and stubborn lol

please don’t receive this as an offense
And so I 'am' Just like you! :giggle: So, no offense taken. Do you still believe?:
...your trying to understand the Bible by limiting it to a passage...
Even though I have found over 100?
It’s always the same sequence in scripture when the writer is discussing the subject of the gathering of the church it’s always afterwards at the end at the resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns from heaven
Respectfully disagree, because of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Introduction to God's Great GRACE Departure!:

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
----------------------------------
Thus, failure to "Rightly Divide God's Word Of Truth" is the single cause of
all the Confusion of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Thus, I believe and have spoken, not moving to another position.

Grace, Peace, and Comfort Be Unto you from Christ!

Amen.

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png

to be continued?
 
Feb 10, 2024
17
3
3
#11
1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return. There is not 3 advents. If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30 HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
bravo!!! bravo!!! awesome post and you laid it out air tight. it is soo inspiring to see somebody use scripture only to break the incredulous “rapture” doctrine into the ground. it drives me insane scrolling through video after video of “rapture watch” 🤦🏼‍♂️
this is a perfect example of believers mimicking the poison they hear coming from their pastor and because they don’t read their bibles they don’t have a clue of how mislead they are. it’s a shame because when everything implodes these people will not be prepared and most will give up their faith because their hope was in some kind of early dismissal from the tribulation that is to come.
great job exposing this heresy👍🏻 peace be to you 🙏 praise Yahweh
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,629
3,532
113
#12
Amen, Very Clear to me [ in all 16 study sections ]:

1a) Peace With God!
1b) Which Bible version should I use?
2) According to All These Bible study Rules
3) Three 'ages' Rightly Divided
4) Which Gospel 'makes way' for which gospel?
5) Great Tribulation, Or: tribulations/Great Grace Departure?
6) Departure 'expectations'
7) Heavenly Uplook for the Body Of Christ
8) Looking, Patiently waiting, and watching For 'Blessed Hope' (or 'signs'?)
9) God's Removal Of His Body Of Christ!:
10) The Day Of Christ vs Day Of The Lord vs Day Of God
11) Confidence in death/resurrection Or in living/glorification
12) No 'warning' Imminence
13) Two 'Trumps of God' In The Age of Grace
14) Meeting Christ 'in the air'
15) Preparation for 'Judgment Of The Entire Body Of Christ'
16) Post Departure Deceptions
+
Summary Conclusion Of pre-trib:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Willing to humbly and kindly discuss any or all, if you wish...

Amen.
See you here, there, or in the air.:)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,629
3,532
113
#13
Precious friend, you and I are "on the same page then," as I believe the Bible
as I studied It, and will not "move away from It," either, going over to the
contrary 'opinion/view' of post-trib rapture of The Body of Christ. Amen.


And so I 'am' Just like you! :giggle: So, no offense taken. Do you still believe?:

Even though I have found over 100?

Respectfully disagree, because of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Introduction to God's Great GRACE Departure!:

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
----------------------------------
Thus, failure to "Rightly Divide God's Word Of Truth" is the single cause of
all the Confusion of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Thus, I believe and have spoken, not moving to another position.

Grace, Peace, and Comfort Be Unto you from Christ!

Amen.

View attachment 261011

to be continued?
Agreed. Once again we are seeing a failure to rightly divide the promises to Israel from the promises to the body of Christ. I believe Israel will be caught up post-trib, but the body of Christ will be caught up before Jacob's trouble.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#14
HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
[note: I will TRY to fit my responses into just TWO posts... but it may take THREE... we'll see :) ]

1. The prophecy regarding False prophets teach the souls to fly and God is against it - Ezekiel 13:20 kjv
Sounds like an argument from something like D. MacPherson's book [/publications], which argument I believe is flawed:

--Ezek13:20 is NOT a "rapture" context;

--Ezek13:20 is making the point that the LORD God will "DELIVER" His people "out of your [/their] hand";

--I've made posts about this passage in the past (so won't elaborate further here)

2. Jesus said His coming is after the tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
Pre-tribbers also AGREE that Jesus will indeed be COMING "after the tribulation" of those days (that is, after the GREAT tribulation, i.e. after the second HALF of the future Trib yrs); Pre-tribbers fully acknowledge this

--however, Matthew 24:29-31 (and parallels), re: "GREAT" trumpet, corresponds with that of Isaiah 27:9,12-13[/Rom11:27[,25,15&Dan9:24(parts)]... (read there in Isa27:9,12-13: WHO, and IN WHAT MANNER THEY ARE 'GATHERED,' and TO WHERE and FOR WHAT PURPOSE... not to mention what the Gospels tell regarding "BY WHOM" they will be gathered--in every way DISTINCT from "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [1Th4:17/2Th2:1 speaking solely of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not all other saints of all OTHER time-periods, to whom "Rapture" does NOT pertain nor apply])

3. Jesus teaches the wicked will be gathered first - Matthew 13:30, 39-43
Right. At the time-slot surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH... this is indeed the case (which pertains to the time-slot of the "WHEAT harvest"... I propose to you, for your consideration, that WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest):

--there are TWO DISTINCT "FIRSTFRUIT" spoken of in Lev23; the 144,000 (future) of Rev14:4 are said to be "firstfruit," but these correspond to the SECOND of the TWO "FIRSTFRUIT" that Lev23 speaks to, i.e. the one in v.17 which (v.17 as part of the WHEAT harvest) says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--neither of these is how WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are stated to be /as being (or are described as). NO!

--James 2:18 says, "A KIND of firstfruit" (agreeing with the point that there is MORE THAN ONE "KIND" of "FIRSTFRUIT" both in Scripture and in nature);

--the sequence of the gathering spoken of in Matt13 (which passage was the BASIS of their LATER question to Jesus in Matt24:3 [re: His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Subject]) takes place in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"

4. Paul warns in 2 Thessalonians 2 not to be deceived by letters from us, including 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as he is going to cover the gathering back to Jesus in this chapter. 2Thes 2.
No, notice carefully it says, "by letters AS [G5613] from us"--huge difference! (i.e. "AS THOUGH from us"... or "POSING TO BE from us"--NOT the one he HAD already written them! But FAKE ONES purporting to be from us, but which WERE NOT! That's what v.2 is saying.)

--Verse 2 is NOT saying "[do not be deceived] BY LETTERS FROM US" as you are suggesting it is saying. You left out a very important word (which thereby changes the MEANING of this text); not advisable ;)

--Consider this quote from BLB about this Greek word for "AS [G5613]" here: "β. to a quality which is supposed, pretended, reigned, assumed: ὡς ἁμαρτωλός κρίνομαι, Romans 3:7; ὡς πονηρόν, Luke 6:22; add, 1 Corinthians 4:7; 1 Corinthians 8:7; 2 Corinthians 6:8-10; 2 Corinthians 11:15; 2 Corinthians 13:7; 1 Peter 2:12; frequently it can be rendered as if, as though, Acts 3:12; Acts 23:15, 20; Acts 27:30; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 10:14; 2 Corinthians 11:17; Colossians 2:20; Hebrews 11:27; Hebrews 13:3; ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δἰ ἡμῶν, namely, γεγραμμενης, 2 Thessalonians 2:2." (so, "ASSUMED to be from us" or "PRETENDED to be from us" or "SUPPOSEDLY from us" or "PURPORTING to be from us," etc);

--v.15 basically is saying, BELIEVE US / WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU... do NOT believe THEM (the false claimants v.2 is warning about); ... by v.15's saying, "stand fast, and hold the traditions [/teachings] WHICH YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether by word, OR OUR EPISTLE"--hold to THAT (not any FAKES that may be circulating! [v.2's warning about those!])

5. Paul agrees that believers will be changed at the last trumpet - 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
This passage pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (US), not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)

6. Paul agrees in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that Jesus' coming is after Satan
The word "after" in this chpt/verse (the words "after" and "Satan" are used in v.9) is not speaking as "SEQUENTIALLY AFTER," as you are suggesting it states, but rather "whose coming [re: the man of sin] is AFTER [/ACCORDING TO - G2596] the working of Satan with all _____..."

(see G2596 - kata - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2596/kjv/tr/0-1/ )--this is the ONLY VERSE with anything about "SATAN" (coupled with the idea of "AFTER");

--However, Pre-tribbers AGREE that Jesus will do the "MANIFESTION of the presence/parousia of Him" (v.8b) AFTER a bunch of other things spelled out in this text (including the 3 points-in-time that the "man of sin" and his doings speak to [in this text], i.e. BEGINNING of the 7 yrs, MIDDLE of the 7 yrs, and END of the 7 yrs--perfectly corresponding to SAME in all other passages speaking to this/him/that person or on THAT Subject [i.e. TRIB stuff]); but v.8b "MANIFESTATION of" is distinct from what v.1 speaks to, which pertains ONLY to "US" and NO ONE ELSE ("OUR"... and UP THERE!)

7. The word "rapture" is not recorded in the Bible
It's from a version written in a different language [back in the 400s] from that of our English version. So what.

--Originally in the Greek, as "harpagēsometha"... but nobody (or "few") would grasp what we're talking about if we said, "I am eager for 'harpagēsometha'!!" People would be like, "huh?!?!" lol

8. The subject in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is about the resurrection of the dead
This passage ^ is solely (per context) pertaining to (to/for/about) "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to/for/about all other saints of all OTHER time-periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints... none of whom He is "MARRYING"... though they are indeed "saints" also);

--The Church which is His body is the ONLY ONE having been promised this "harpagēsometha" (it connects with that which will then take place per 3:13!);

--this text (not to mention, context [1Th3:13 also!]) is ABOUT MORE than just the "shall RISE [/be resurrected] first" (before the next thing in the text THEN occurs);

--also "resurrection" is defined as "to STAND AGAIN [on the earth]"... so this passage is about MORE than simply that, alone!

9. The resurrection of the dead - John 5:28-29
Distinct context.

10. The last trumpet and the transformation of believers - 1 Corinthians 15:52
"... of 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'," to/for/about whom this passage SOLELY pertains... not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods

11. The judgment of the wicked and the righteous - Revelation 20:11-15
Rev20:11-15, as I understand it, is the judgment of "THE DEAD [of all times]"... that is, the "[UNsaved] DEAD" of all times (those are the ONLY ones who will NOT have been "resurrected" at LEAST 1000 years prior to this point in the chronology--ALL SAINTS will have been, prior to the commencement of those 1000 years [which MK commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth]!)

12. The sounding is only of seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 signifies the seventh trumpet, with the seventh trump being the last trump
The seven judgment trumpets (straddling the two halves of the Trib--with SEALS preceding, and VIALS following) are distinct from both "the last trumpet" and the "GREAT trumpet" (the one I pointed out in response to point #2, above)

13. The announcement of Jesus return is indeed revealed in the 7th and last trumpet Revelation 11:15
The "announcement" will well-precede His actual RETURN to the earth; As I see it, this "announcement" occurs on a specific calendar date (pertaining to "____ of revelation" [particular date]), but after the "announcement," there are yet seven VIALS which must unfold upon the earth before His "RETURN" to the earth at the Armaggedon time-slot;

--the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" occurs prior to His Second Coming to the earth, by SOME TIME (see the 7 Vials, which themselves TAKE SOME TIME to unfold upon the earth); IOW, the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe [/1st Vial]" is not taking place AT THE VERY END of the 7 yrs, when Christ RETURNS to the earth (Rev19)


[continues in the next post]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#15
[continued from previous post... and I think a third post will be required, to "fit" it all in :) ]


14. In kjv 1 Thessalonians 4:16, is the only place in the rapture teaching of 1Thes 4 17, that mentions a time of Jesus return, in the term "and with the trump of God"
Consider: one of the study aids (often told to students of scripture) is to first look at how the writer of a particular word (i.e. Paul and his use of the word "trumpet") uses this word elsewhere IN THEIR [own] WRITING (that writer's), before looking OUTSIDE of that (where that word may be used ELSEWHERE); so we see Paul using this word ONE OTHER place (besides the two under present discussion): that, found in 1Cor14:8, saying, "For if THE TRUMPET give an UNCERTAIN SOUND, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"

This hails back to Numbers 10:1-10 (or thereabouts), where the two silver trumpets were "sounded" in DISTINCT patterns FOR DISTINCT *PURPOSES* (depending on which "pattern" they were SOUNDED)... and v.4 states, "And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the PRINCES, which are HEADS of... shall gather UNTO THEE [/unto Moses]" (for example)

1Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
--"The Lord HIMSELF"

--"IN [/en] shout"

--"IN [/en] voice of archangel"

--"IN [/en] trumpet of God"

--"SHALL DESCEND"

... this seems to be the order of the wording in this verse;


I agree that this is connected to "the LAST Trumpet" (not the "7th" of the set of 7 judgment trumpets; nor the "GREAT" trumpet); but consider what the "FIRST" trumpet was--in the following text/context--Rev4:1 -

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

3588 [e]


the
Art-NFS

5456 [e]
phōnē
φωνὴ
voice
N-NFS

3588 [e]


-
Art-NFS

4413 [e]
prōtē
πρώτη
first
Adj-NFS

3739 [e]
hēn
ἣν
that
RelPro-AFS

191 [e]
ēkousa
ἤκουσα
I heard
V-AIA-1S [i.e. which I had heard BACK IN CHPT 1... verse 10... and the "voice, as of a trumpet" calling Himself there, "[I AM]... the FIRST and the LAST" (!!!)]

5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
like
Adv

4536 [e]
salpingos
σάλπιγγος
a trumpet
N-GFS

2980 [e]
lalousēs
λαλούσης
was speaking
V-PPA-GFS [PRESENT-ly.. or, NOW]

3326 [e]
met’
μετ’
with
Prep

1473 [e]
emou
ἐμοῦ ,
me
PPro-G1S

3004 [e]
legōn
λέγων ,
saying
V-PPA-NMS [PRESENT-ly... or, was NOW (in 4:1) saying...]


So, we see Jesus Himself in "voice, as of a TRUMPET" saying He is "the FIRST and the LAST" (1:10) and then LATER is shown (4:1) SAYING a particular something, there (in 4:1) as He is "talking with me [John]" there in that verse... which is the LAST time we are shown Him speaking "like a trumpet"...

...and the very next scene (in the "future" aspects section) is the "24 elders" shown wearing the ALREADY-AWARDED "crowns" (which Paul had said would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" and not to him only);
... and shown wearing the previously-promised "white HIMATION" that chpt 3 had promised;
... and shown sitting on "THRONES" (why is this?; see also 1:6-7!);
... and shown saying, "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood, out-of EVERY..." (why are they saying this?) BEFORE the "FIRST SEAL" is opened (which kicks off the 7-yr Trib years);
...and 5:4's wording "WAS FOUND" indicating that a searching judgment has already been concluded... same Greek word used when speaking of when Paul was brought before their earthly-located (human) "bema-seat" judgment in the latter chpts of Acts!


[continued in the next post]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#16
[continued from the previous post]


we know from Rev 11:15 this the 7th trump the last trump is the trumpet annoucing HIS Coming His 2nd and only return.
I agree it is an "announcement". Pre-tribbers agree He "RETURNS" ONCE (to the earth)

Pre-tribbers agree He "RETURNS" to the earth (in passages which speak to this) ONCE!

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,etc (and its parallel in Matt24:42-51), which Lk passage states, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom)... THEN "the meal [G347; see this word used also in Matt8:11 and its parallel; speaking of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"; the "still-living" saved/believers will ENTER the earthly MK age in their MORTAL bodies [as the "BLESSED"--corresponding to about 7-8 OTHER "BLESSED" passages speaking to THIS issue / time-slot])

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over TEN CITIES"... "likewise be thou over FIVE CITIES" ____ (these "cities" are ON THE EARTH)

There is not 3 advents.
I think we agree about what is called His first advent.

When it comes to "FUTURE" events, the word "parousia" (re: Him) pertains to BOTH[/EITHER] "our Rapture" time-slot AND[/OR] His "RETURN" to the earth time-slot, depending on context (the same way that the word "erchomai [/come/coming]" does, depending on context);

--in 2Th2:1 ("parousia"), we "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be the ONLY ones who will be in His presence (same way that 1Th4:17 / 3:13 's context speaks of);

--however, in 2Th2:8b ("the MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia of Him"), BY CONTRAST, will be when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth at that time-slot "shall SEE Him" (because that is WHEN the 1Tim6:15's "Which in His times HE SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST], who is the blessed and only Potentate, THE KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (said only elsewhere in Rev19:16 / 17:14--events surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH / His RETURN to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN there.)

If you choose to reply you would have to defeat all fifteen arguments but Jesus red letters are clear about the tribulation Matt 24:30
Again, Matthew 24:30 is not a "rapture" context; but rather, is all about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (so covers the specific, [yet-]future, LIMITED time-period which immediately PRECEDES and LEADS UP to THAT (same as I laid out, above). NOWHERE in His Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture" (which 1Th4:17/3:13 and 2Th2:1 [etc] ARE speaking to).

HIS WORD IS CLEAR.
Okay. But there exists much misunderstanding and misinformation about "His Word".

Comparing Scripture with Scripture is one aid in/toward our "understanding" properly.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,107
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#19
Precious friend, you and I are "on the same page then," as I believe the Bible
as I studied It, and will not "move away from It," either, going over to the
contrary 'opinion/view' of post-trib rapture of The Body of Christ. Amen.


And so I 'am' Just like you! :giggle: So, no offense taken. Do you still believe?:

Even though I have found over 100?

Respectfully disagree, because of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Introduction to God's Great GRACE Departure!:

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
----------------------------------
Thus, failure to "Rightly Divide God's Word Of Truth" is the single cause of
all the Confusion of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Thus, I believe and have spoken, not moving to another position.

Grace, Peace, and Comfort Be Unto you from Christ!

Amen.

View attachment 261011

to be continued?
Lol you’ve misunderstood , what you do is this

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (Im not interested in Joseph prince devotionals precious friend I think they are hypergrace heresy )

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when I read your posts all I hear is someone taking each verse out of its context mangling it until it somehow fits into a Joseph prince devotional and then you find another unrelated verse twist it and mangle it until it fits the hypergracer hallucination that deny everything that a person finds who actually reads what Paul wrote I note context of the letters he wrote to the church

Everything you have ever said is based on “ dividing the word “ and you’ve taken that as a liscense to butcher it and direct people away from the things Jesus actually said will save thier soul

what I’m saying is I’m not trying to offend you , I just disagree with 99 percent of your interpretations because it’s all based on rejecting what the lord actually said in the gospel for the sake of some other “ gospel of the grace of Christ “ we’ve been through this over and over.

a when I try to consider your views within three sentences it’s already going the opposite of what I believe

all that said I’m not your judge I’m just another human who believes what I’ve read in scriptire without me having to change what it says or means or interpret anything away or re explain things

My view is completely the opposite of that I think it’s plainly written so no one needs to interpret or depends on anyone else’s interpretations all we actually have to do is accept the gospel the real one that Jesus was sent to preach and send to all people and then suffer and die for

Its the opposite to reject the gospel the lord preached and sent to the world to all people and then create one other gospel based upon someone’s interpretation of single select verses I’m a Christian so it’s not about what someone’s telling me now but what Christ said to believe and be saved

i don’t actually think you’ve read much of the Bible by the way but I do believe you’ve read Joseph prince a lot and Paul Ellis and probably also les feldick from seeing how you say what your saying and the verses and explainations you use

Im here to discuss the Bible would you like to discuss Paul’s writings in the context of what he was saying I’d like to do that again with you. But it’s hard because you then try to manipulate the single verse again to avoid what Paul’s actually saying but I’d really like to see what you think of what Paul wrote on his letters without the hypergracers lens
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,107
4,914
113
#20
Precious friend, you and I are "on the same page then," as I believe the Bible
as I studied It, and will not "move away from It," either, going over to the
contrary 'opinion/view' of post-trib rapture of The Body of Christ. Amen.


And so I 'am' Just like you! :giggle: So, no offense taken. Do you still believe?:

Even though I have found over 100?

Respectfully disagree, because of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:
Introduction to God's Great GRACE Departure!:

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
----------------------------------
Thus, failure to "Rightly Divide God's Word Of Truth" is the single cause of
all the Confusion of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Thus, I believe and have spoken, not moving to another position.

Grace, Peace, and Comfort Be Unto you from Christ!

Amen.

View attachment 261011

to be continued?
Its hard for me to even make sense of what you are saying here if I’m honest I don’t understand anything your trying to say

seriously

“God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
----------------------------------
Thus, failure to "Rightly Divide God's Word Of Truth" is the single cause of
all the Confusion of:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Thus, I believe and have spoken, not moving to another position.”

what ? Are you talking about lol

“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.”
‭‭Romans‬ 16:25

you reference this for what purpose ? You’re trying to establish Paul having different secret gospel ?

now you have skipped away to Ephesians 1 about predestination ? Why what’s the connection is this Paul’s secret second gospel ?

now we skip to chapter 3 where Paul’s says Jesus apostles and prophets have all received this revelation about how Jew and gentile are one group together now ? And there’s no difference in Jew and gentile ?

“how that as I wrote afore in few words, as I wrote afore in few words, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; ( the writers of the new testament including but not unique to Paul ) that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3, 5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And again why are you quoting this ? To show that Paul was somehow Ted chi f a different gospel lol ? I can’t understand your quotes or what you’re saying you just keep saying no one can rightly divide the word unless they agree with you but what are you saying what is your point ?