The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Not necessary to post again. If you can't track with me then you just can't. No biggie. :)
lol track with you ? no the word of God and what it says about hell and those who go there is very clear .
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I gues they will not know the second death because they are dead lol
Once they've died the second death, they won't know anything at all. They will be dead.

you have and issue with "eisegesis "

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/;) is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.

and allegorizing of the verses .
I know what eisegesis is, thanks.

I am not practicing it.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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The on-going error with you and others, is that you look at the word destruction and you apply the meaning of annihilation or extinction to it without considering the words that it is being translated from. Not only are the Greek words defined as "complete loss of well being, ruination," but the context also bears out on-going, conscious existence in punishment.
You state that because it's what you believe, and not because it's what the words mean, or what the context suggests.

Now THAT'S eisegesis....
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Thank you for your kind words. I lead a Bible study, and the 1st words I usually say are from a wonderful Pastor I've followed for a long time via internet.

Acts 17: " Don't believe anything Ed tells you, but search the Scriptures daily to see if he is speaking truth to word" ( Obvious paraphrase)!

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally. I don't like it, and hope I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The outer darkness is kind of tricky. I think most commentators believe that it is another title, and perhaps descriptive aspect, of hell. That seems the most likely possibility. But hey, maybe not.

I say this is not a vital issue, because by and large it's Christians that debate this. The lost don't even contemplate hell. I think a lot of the warnings about hell and eternal suffering is there to spur US on to spread the spectacular news of the Gospel.

So I wouldn't start a conversation with an unsaved person about hell. I would tell them what Jesus Christ has done for me, and the Gospel.

But..... If they ask me..... I'd tell them you don't wanna go there and suffer eternally!
why what has jesus done for you if not took your sin whichwould sand you to hell? that is the good News Jesus paid it all you do not have to go to hell His love was given to all.
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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Modern Jews focus primarily on the Talmud. But the Torah does have a few references to the afterlife (which is in Sheol/Hades, the place of departed spirits). It is unfortunate that the KJV translators wrongly used the word "grave".

And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [SHEOL] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35 KJB)
All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him. (ESV)

And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave [SHEOL] . (Gen 44:29)
If you also take this one from me and anything happens to him, you will bring my gray hairs down to Sheol in sorrow.'" (HCSB)

Evidently the patriarchs were familiar with the afterlife, and Job knew full well that even after he died he would stand resurrected before God and see Him face to face.
Yes, I'm familiar with the Talmud.
The Tanach itself and the Prophet book of Daniel 12:2 lead some to believe there is a form of a punishing afterlife mentioned there. Orthodox Jewish Bible Version2. And rabbim of them that sleep in the admat aphar (dust of the ground) shall awake, some to Chayyei Olam (Everlasting Life), and some to reproaches (shames) and Dera’on Olam (Everlasting Contempt, Abhorrence, Aversion, i.e., Everlasting Gehinnom.[T.N. Onesh Olam is here made more fearsome in light of the prevalent neglect of Scripture in favor of non-Biblical studies]).


Also , what are your thoughts concerning the teachings as relate to Olam Ha-Ba ?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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You state that because it's what you believe, and not because it's what the words mean, or what the context suggests.

Now THAT'S eisegesis....
no that is bible 101 he is correct annihilationism is false it is

Universalism/Annihilationism
people like John Stott. Although the theory of annihilationism had been around since at least the Middle Ages, Stott brought it to the forefront again in the late 20th Century. Stott may not have been completely convinced of the idea himself, but offered it as a possible alternative to the commonly accepted concept of a literal, eternal hell for the damned.

John Stott and Annihilationism – The Problem
The problem with John Stott’s argument is that what we deem to be fair or unfair is seen through our imperfect—and sinful—human eyes as reasoned through our imperfect—and sinful—thoughts.
It is impossible for us to rationalize this issue with our limited means the same way that a Holy and Righteous God views it. this is the issue with those who think annihilationism is biblical they use human reasoning and allegorize the word of God to explain their error position.

This is why so many times people believe they can go to heaven because they think they are “good enough” or as “good as the next person. The truth is that a perfect God will not allow imperfection into His heaven. In fact, He cannot allow imperfection into his heaven. That is why we must be made righteous through the blood of Jesus Christ before we, as believers, can stand in the presence of the Almighty God.
Bible word of God not human reasoning .
Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 that God “…will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.” Finally, Jesus himself said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Thank you for your kind words. I lead a Bible study, and the 1st words I usually say are from a wonderful Pastor I've followed for a long time via internet.

Acts 17: " Don't believe anything Ed tells you, but search the Scriptures daily to see if he is speaking truth to word" ( Obvious paraphrase)!

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally. I don't like it, and hope I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The outer darkness is kind of tricky. I think most commentators believe that it is another title, and perhaps descriptive aspect, of hell. That seems the most likely possibility. But hey, maybe not.

I say this is not a vital issue, because by and large it's Christians that debate this. The lost don't even contemplate hell. I think a lot of the warnings about hell and eternal suffering is there to spur US on to spread the spectacular news of the Gospel.

So I wouldn't start a conversation with an unsaved person about hell. I would tell them what Jesus Christ has done for me, and the Gospel.

But..... If they ask me..... I'd tell them you don't wanna go there and suffer eternally!
Good day PennEd,

I agree with what you wrote above in that, those who are being taught should have the same attitude of the Bereans checking the scriptures to see if what the person told them is scripturally correct. I think this is a big problem today in that, many just listen to what they are being told but they have no personal study.

Regarding "outer darkness" my take on this is that, we know fire as something that is hot and that produces light. But God controls atoms and molecules and therefore, the lake of fire could burn hot and completely black for all we know. The fire there doesn't have to produce light if God doesn't want it to.

Regarding speaking with an unsaved person, though I would agree that I would not start a conversation about hell, it would be included as the conversation progressed. When we say "saved" it immediately begs the question "saved from what?" one on this site awhile back stated that we should not lure people to Christ with the promise of heaven, nor with the threat of hell. My response was "what if they say 'no thank you, I'm not interested.' " They need to know what their current state is without Christ and what the end result will be. I believe that both the good news of salvation and the current state of the unbeliever and the consequences should be presented.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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We are not to go above that which is written by the oral traditions of the jewish fathe,.having another authority other than prophecy as the word of God alone simply make the word of God without effect .

Can't serve two teaching masters .God's tradition the Bible and the oral traditions of men as the law of the fathers.

Hate one ;love the other or ;love one hate the other
I do confess that I do not understand what you are objecting to there. To assist my understanding please, do you accept the Tanach pertains to the grounding of the Christian tradition?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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no that is bible 101 he is correct annihilationism is false it is

Universalism/Annihilationism
people like John Stott. Although the theory of annihilationism had been around since at least the Middle Ages, Stott brought it to the forefront again in the late 20th Century. Stott may not have been completely convinced of the idea himself, but offered it as a possible alternative to the commonly accepted concept of a literal, eternal hell for the damned.

John Stott and Annihilationism – The Problem
The problem with John Stott’s argument is that what we deem to be fair or unfair is seen through our imperfect—and sinful—human eyes as reasoned through our imperfect—and sinful—thoughts.
It is impossible for us to rationalize this issue with our limited means the same way that a Holy and Righteous God views it. this is the issue with those who think annihilationism is biblical they use human reasoning and allegorize the word of God to explain their error position.

This is why so many times people believe they can go to heaven because they think they are “good enough” or as “good as the next person. The truth is that a perfect God will not allow imperfection into His heaven. In fact, He cannot allow imperfection into his heaven. That is why we must be made righteous through the blood of Jesus Christ before we, as believers, can stand in the presence of the Almighty God.
Bible word of God not human reasoning .
Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 that God “…will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.” Finally, Jesus himself said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
That's rather meaningless. Anyone can find an article on the internet to support their belief.... The question is: what does the Bible teach?

Also, I am not a universalist.

Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 that God “…will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.”
The "everlasting destruction" is the second death. It will be permanent.

Finally, Jesus himself said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
The punishMENT will be permanent. The punishING will not.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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That's rather Anyone can find an article on the internet to support their belief.... The question is: what does the Bible teach?

Also, I am not a universalist.


The "everlasting destruction" is the second death. It will be permanent.


The punishMENT will be permanent. The punishING will not.
It may be meaningless to you however, historical context is there, only with revisionist have issue with it. Biblical tenet Christianity has long taught and correctly the eternal state of hell and of those who go there.

and right back at you, as you said anyone can find article on the internet. And as you have done make statements which are not supported biblically . Like this comment"

"The punishMENT will be permanent. The punishING will not".

that is also not what the bible teaches.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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you are allegorizing the scriptures
Really??
Are you sure??
I think THIS is allegorizing scripture: eternally dead does not really mean dead - it means the complete opposite of what any man thinks of as dead - it means eternally alive and in eternal torment.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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It may be meaningless to you however, historical context is there, only with revisionist have issue with it. Biblical tenet Christianity has long taught and correctly the eternal state of hell and of those who go there.

and right back at you, as you said anyone can find article on the internet. And as you have done make statements which are not supported biblically . Like this comment"

"The punishMENT will be permanent. The punishING will not".

that is also not what the bible teaches.
That statement above makes no sense whatsoever! The word "punishment" infers that the one being punished must exist in order to experience said punishment. It carries the idea of punishment as being on-going. You can't punish someone who doesn't exist.

It's amazing the things that people concoct in order to support their false belief.

By the way CS1, who is it that you are conversing with, if you don't mind me asking?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Regarding "outer darkness" my take on this is that, we know fire as something that is hot and that produces light. But God controls atoms and molecules and therefore, the lake of fire could burn hot and completely black for all we know. The fire there doesn't have to produce light if God doesn't want it to.
I would suggest that "outer darkness" means that the Lake of Fire has been located outside space (which is finite) and which will be cleansed when the New Heavens (plural) and the New Earth are established.

Since "heavens" is plural, and since God's Heaven needs no cleansing, the Bible is speaking about our atmospheric heaven as well as outer space.

As we know space has been thoroughly polluted, therefore it must be cleansed. But since the Lake of Fire is reserved for the wicked, they cannot remain in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Therefore they are consigned to outer darkness -- a place of torment.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Do you see the definition above? Apoleia is from apollumi, which as you can see from what I have highlighted in red above says that neither word implies "annihilation" but "loss of well-being, ruinatioin . Bellow is the definition of another word translated as destruction:

"They will be punished with everlasting "destruction" and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."

Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

First of all, take notice of the scripture above, which states that "they will be punished with "everlasting destruction" and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." That word "destruction" above is translated from "olethros" which as you can see from the definition above, states that "olethros does not imply extinction or annihilation and therefore the word cannot be used to imply either. Therefore, the translated word "everlasting destruction" cannot mean annihilation or extinction, which because of the context would also mean that neither apollumi nor apoleia can mean annihilation or extinction as well, that is unless you believe that some people are completely obliterated and others suffer loss of well-being in separation from the Lord.

My point is that the one scripture above says it all in that, because olethros is translated as "everlasting destruction" and the word does not imply annihilation or extinction, then both apoleia and apollumi must also mean complete loss of well being when describing the destruction of human beings.

The on-going error with you and others, is that you look at the word destruction and you apply the meaning of annihilation or extinction to it without considering the words that it is being translated from. Not only are the Greek words defined as "complete loss of well being, ruination," but the context also bears out on-going, conscious existence in punishment.




I don't believe that I said that appolumi was a verb, but one of the other words that I was also posting on. If I did, then it was just a typo. I will go back and check my post.
Yeah...Strongs has its limitations. It's a great tool most of the time, but even Strong himself has said that it is not sufficient for a word study, (and especially not in greek.) There's just too many problems using a root concordance - no case forms, no breakdown of verbs into their delineation and whatnot.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I would suggest that "outer darkness" means that the Lake of Fire has been located outside space (which is finite) and which will be cleansed when the New Heavens (plural) and the New Earth are established.

Since "heavens" is plural, and since God's Heaven needs no cleansing, the Bible is speaking about our atmospheric heaven as well as outer space.

As we know space has been thoroughly polluted, therefore it must be cleansed. But since the Lake of Fire is reserved for the wicked, they cannot remain in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Therefore they are consigned to outer darkness -- a place of torment.
Yes, but since the "outer darkness" is directed at those as being part of the punishment, then I would think that it would be literal darkness. If it was just referring to outer space, it would not be dark and the fire created from the lake of fire would not be dark either if it was creating actual light as we know fire does. That's why I suggested that the fire in the lake of fire may burn dark and not create light so that those suffering outer darkness would actually be in darkness. Consider the following:

"These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them." 2 Pet.2:17

Outer darkness is not just a location, but apart of the punishment.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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If it was just referring to outer space...
What I meant is OUTSIDE outer space, and yes, the Lake of Fire would be in darkness. But again, we are not provided much detail in these matters, and in any event we could hardly grasp the magnitude of what is stated.
 
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That statement above makes no sense whatsoever! The word "punishment" infers that the one being punished must exist in order to experience said punishment. It carries the idea of punishment as being on-going. You can't punish someone who doesn't exist.
And you think THIS statement makes any more sense?? :)
If a man is sentenced to death by a judge, he exists while the punishment is pronounced, then he does not exist after the punishment is executed. Now, after he is executed, would you say he received no punishment because he doesn't exist any more...???
 
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lol track with you ? no the word of God and what it says about hell and those who go there is very clear .
Oh come on. :LOL:
Okay, nyuck, nyuck, nyuck - I agree the word of God is very clear. But you are not seeing it clearly.
This thread has become very similar to slapstick. :ROFL: