When I am trying to figure the verses into my equation that seem to contradict, yes, I try to take all related verses into account. But I am sometimes missing some or not considering certain ones that could be related. That's why talking with you guys in here helps me so much. You all often have verses I've not remembered or accounted for. It can be trying when one or two people think they know all truth on a matter, but for the most part, everyone who participates is in the same kind of mind as myself - seeing apparent discrepancies and wanting to understand and learn more and set aside what they've always accepted when they discover it doesn't really match scripture.
The cultic origins of Annihilationism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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The old with Jonas as living suffering and new the Son of man suffering in the garden work together as one example. ( the last sign and wonder, or sign with wonder) No separation between the two
Amen, its exactly what parables are meant to do ILLUSTRATE spiritual truths hidden in parables.(not seen) using the prescriptions like below to find the hidden meanings. Many parables are historically true and again hide the spiritual understanding (hidden Manna)
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 cor 4:18
When a unbeliever dies His temporal spirit returns to the father who gave it. He gave it to begin with to bring the essence of life into a body of clay or a body of death. The clay retuned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was taken from at the same time the Spirt of Christ returned to the father
When an unbeliever (no faith) dies. The clay as worm food returns to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was taken from.
There will be no new spirit to rise on the last day as with a believer... they will rise and receive their new incorruptible bodies.
Zombies the living dead is the Hollywood drama stuff designed to excite one emotions, or like Catholicism (necromancy) worker with familiar spirits called Patron saints .
No Limbo, no purgatory, no reincarnation, no near death experience ….deader than a door nail
Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Hell is defined as a living work of suffering a living (not dead ) a living sacrifice that keep on working in those whpo do have the born again spirit of Christ
It is applied to Jonas used as a parable to represent Christ, it represents Christ who cannot die. The fishes belly or heart of the earth represent three day of a living suffering.( no dead sacrifices) Hell simply mean suffering .
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the "belly of hell" cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.Jonas 2:1-7
How would it be more tolerable if everyone ceases to exist? How does God dish out judgement based upon works if everyone receives the same penalty (of destruction, ceasing to exist, being obliterated, etc)? People advocating Annihilation place emphasis on God's justice (and love), but where is the balance, in appropriate penalty per individual?
Why would works be considered for those ceasing to exist? Is it simply to determine if one is guilty, and then destroy them? How then does Jesus say that it would be more tolerable for Sodom, if they too are found guilty? There are no... tiers of punishment in Annihilation. All cease to exist.
Again, just chatting. Not being definitive here, just sharing my thoughts and seeing certain implications of the doctrine.
Why would works be considered for those ceasing to exist? Is it simply to determine if one is guilty, and then destroy them? How then does Jesus say that it would be more tolerable for Sodom, if they too are found guilty? There are no... tiers of punishment in Annihilation. All cease to exist.
Again, just chatting. Not being definitive here, just sharing my thoughts and seeing certain implications of the doctrine.
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Well, yes, I was sharing my thoughts when a poster said: "obliterating everyone equally," and said I wasn't sure of that.
I brought up the "more tolerable for" verse and said how it has always intrigued me.
The unholy trinity is who God says will be forever tormented. Others are said to "have their place" in the lake of fire, but are not specifically said to be in torment forever and ever. They share in it, but it is men who decide "have their place in" means the same exact judgement of torment forever that is pronounced on the unholy trinity.
I would look at annihilation as a more merciful judgement than torment forever, wouldn't you?
My other objection to torment forever for all unbelievers is that this is saying there is eternal life in a man when he is born, which I don't believe. I believe we are born without eternal life because God specifically saw to it that adam and eve would not live forever in their fallen state by withholding the tree of life from them lest they eat from it and live forever. I believe there is no eternal life for humans other than being born again from above.
I brought up the "more tolerable for" verse and said how it has always intrigued me.
The unholy trinity is who God says will be forever tormented. Others are said to "have their place" in the lake of fire, but are not specifically said to be in torment forever and ever. They share in it, but it is men who decide "have their place in" means the same exact judgement of torment forever that is pronounced on the unholy trinity.
I would look at annihilation as a more merciful judgement than torment forever, wouldn't you?
My other objection to torment forever for all unbelievers is that this is saying there is eternal life in a man when he is born, which I don't believe. I believe we are born without eternal life because God specifically saw to it that adam and eve would not live forever in their fallen state by withholding the tree of life from them lest they eat from it and live forever. I believe there is no eternal life for humans other than being born again from above.
I do somehow think satan seems to be an eternal being apart from having the Holy Spirit. I don't know how that is possible for him, but it appears to be. And it also appears as if satan himself indwells the beast and false prophet. And they are the ones said to be tormented forever.
But I think it is a mistake to assume that because satan is an eternal being apart from God that this means humans are eternal beings apart from God. Scripture does not seem to support it in my opinion.
But I think it is a mistake to assume that because satan is an eternal being apart from God that this means humans are eternal beings apart from God. Scripture does not seem to support it in my opinion.
On the issue of whether we have eternal life at birth, Paul alludes in several places. I personally believe there is eternal life to all children up to the age of accountability. That age is debatable. But I don't believe there will be a single child in hell or annihilated.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 7:9 I was ALIVE ONCE without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
The balance is he has mercy on some through actual death (Annihilation) and not a out of the body experience which in reality is lying spirits brining information in .And to others (Christians) both Mercy and compassion (grace).
He looked on Able with favor or compassion but not so with Cain. He punished him all the days of his life suffering the pangs of hell .
He looked on Able with favor or compassion but not so with Cain. He punished him all the days of his life suffering the pangs of hell .
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I don't think age is a factor? Christ knows who are his in the womb even before good (blessings) or evil (no blessings) is performed.
like with David or Jacob. Their name were written in the Lambs book of eternal life from before the foundation of the world .
Children experience the wrath of God the suffering of hell as the wrath being revealed a daily.
could it be the bible taughts about the body of man after death and the spirit of man after death and the soul of man after death?
Could it be the grave is a type of hell for the body because it rottons there until the rurrection and the spirit of man goes to a place discraibe by Jesus until the day of the Lord?
then we see rev 21 come into play ?
Could it be the grave is a type of hell for the body because it rottons there until the rurrection and the spirit of man goes to a place discraibe by Jesus until the day of the Lord?
then we see rev 21 come into play ?
No garee, dead is not dead! As previously stated and as scripture supports, both life and death are states of conscious existence, which is determined by an individuals state of being with God. Death only has to do with the body for both groups. The spirit however is conscious and aware. For believers in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 and a host of other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body, when the body dies their spirits depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord. For those who die without being reconciled to God through Christ, their spirits depart from the body and do not return to God, but go down into Sheol/Hades to begin their punishment, where they will remain until the great throne judgment. If you hadn't turned the rich man and Lazarus into a parable and thereby distort its meaning as so many do, you would understand that the spirits of the unrighteous dead are conscious and aware after death, as with the rich man who was/is in torment in flame.
Just remember, you will be held accountable for ignoring the literal meaning of scripture and for these false teachings.
Just remember, you will be held accountable for ignoring the literal meaning of scripture and for these false teachings.
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And those who know not Christ, twice dead, body and spirit
Yes Christians carry around a body of death . When their temporal spirit dies the body of death is separated and it returns to the dust from where it was taken from (worm food) .Their new spirts will be raised on the last day
Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If a person has received a new spirit as part of salvation when they wake up or are drawn up with those reigning with Christ on earth on the last day both will receive their new incorruptible body not an made up of the rudiments of this world neither male nor female Jew nor Gentile as if Christ was a man as us was made of flesh and blood.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2:26
And those who know not Christ, twice dead, body and spirit
Yes Christians carry around a body of death . When their temporal spirit dies the body of death is separated and it returns to the dust from where it was taken from (worm food) .Their new spirts will be raised on the last day
Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If a person has received a new spirit as part of salvation when they wake up or are drawn up with those reigning with Christ on earth on the last day both will receive their new incorruptible body not an made up of the rudiments of this world neither male nor female Jew nor Gentile as if Christ was a man as us was made of flesh and blood.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2:26
If you will recall the conversation:
A poster said: "obliterating everyone equally."
I replied: I don't know about that. Then I brought up the "it will be more tolerable for" verse.
Then you came into the conversation, and brought up the same verse I did.
You haven't grasped what I was saying. And you haven't grasped that I think both sides who insist they are right and the other wrong - I think neither have it all correct.
A poster said: "obliterating everyone equally."
I replied: I don't know about that. Then I brought up the "it will be more tolerable for" verse.
Then you came into the conversation, and brought up the same verse I did.
You haven't grasped what I was saying. And you haven't grasped that I think both sides who insist they are right and the other wrong - I think neither have it all correct.
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I completely and vociferously disagree that we are born eternal beings. And I have not seen any verses that suggest men are born with eternal life in them. I believe we don't have eternal life until we are born again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree.
David knew he would see his baby again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree.
David knew he would see his baby again.
I completely and vociferously disagree that we are born eternal beings. And I have not seen any verses that suggest men are born with eternal life in them. I believe we don't have eternal life until we are born again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree. David knew he would see his baby again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree.
David knew he would see his baby again.
I completely and vociferously disagree that we are born eternal beings. And I have not seen any verses that suggest men are born with eternal life in them. I believe we don't have eternal life until we are born again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree. David knew he would see his baby again.
As for children and babies, I completely and vociferously agree.
David knew he would see his baby again.