The dead are asleep

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L

LawofLove

Guest
matt 10:28 Soul. Gr. psuchē, “breath,” “life,” or “soul.” Psuchē (plural, psuchai) is translated 40 times in the NT as “life” or “lives,” clearly with the meaning commonly attributed to the word “life” (see chs. 2:20; 6:25; 16:25; etc.). It is rendered 58 times as “soul” or “souls” (see chs. 10:28; 11:29; 12:18; etc.). In some of these instances it means simply “people” (see Acts 7:14; 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20; etc.). In other instances it is translated as, or equivalent to, some personal pronoun (see Matt. 12:18; 2 Cor. 12:15; see on Ps. 16:10). At times it refers to the emotions (see Mark 14:34; Luke 2:35; etc.), to the natural appetites (see Rev. 18:14), to the mind (see Acts 14:2; Phil. 1:27), or to the heart (see Eph. 6:6). There is nothing in the word psuchē itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body and hence be immortal. In no instance of its use in the Bible does psuchē refer to a conscious entity able to exist apart from the body. The Bible knows nothing of a living, conscious soul that, supposedly, survives the body. For the Heb. nephesh, the Hebrew equivalent of the Gr. puschē, see on 1 Kings 17:21; Ps. 16:10. All that is said of one word applies to the other.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
The dead do not all sleep.

Some do. I don't completely understand that mystery, but Thessalonians is,clearly telling us that we are not ALL going to 'sleep in Jesus.' Only......

...”God will bring with Him THOSE who sleep in Jesus.” 1 Thes. 4:14 .


Amazing how such mystery of death can be in this, could it might be like Jesus is God manifested Holy Spirit life that it is so FAITH can NOT be deadened, there must be great UNSEEN, UNUNDERSTOOD Faitg in the realities,of Christ Jesus our Lord, even of death, and, who is The Life ?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
The dead do not all sleep.

Some do. I don't completely understand that mystery, but Thessalonians is,clearly telling us that we are not ALL going to 'sleep in Jesus.' Only......

...”God will bring with Him THOSE who sleep in Jesus.” 1 Thes. 4:14 .


Amazing how such mystery of death can be in this, could it might be like Jesus is God manifested Holy Spirit life that it is so FAITH can NOT be deadened, there must be great UNSEEN, UNUNDERSTOOD Faitg in the realities,of Christ Jesus our Lord, even of death, and, who is The Life ?
G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

So when it says He will bring with Him it means bring forth to be with Him or lead away with Him.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
The dead do not all sleep.

Some do. I don't completely understand that mystery, but Thessalonians is,clearly telling us that we are not ALL going to 'sleep in Jesus.' Only......

...”God will bring with Him THOSE who sleep in Jesus.” 1 Thes. 4:14 .


Amazing how such mystery of death can be in this, could it might be like Jesus is God manifested Holy Spirit life that it is so FAITH can NOT be deadened, there must be great UNSEEN, UNUNDERSTOOD Faitg in the realities,of Christ Jesus our Lord, even of death, and, who is The Life ?
G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

So when it says He will bring with Him it means bring forth to be with Him or lead away with Him.

But there is a 'selectivity' to the word 'those' in 1 Thess. 4:14 .
The issue is not God's bringing it is at issue who He is bringing.
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
LAWOFLOVE


YOU SAID: And much worse why did he go to heaven and not hell!!

Lazarus did not go to heaven.... the place that the Angel's took Lazarus was a paradise but it was not heaven, that's why it was so close to the place of torment. The place is commonly referred to as Abraham's Bosom.
 
L

LawofLove

Guest
LAWOFLOVE


YOU SAID: And much worse why did he go to heaven and not hell!!

Lazarus did not go to heaven.... the place that the Angel's took Lazarus was a paradise but it was not heaven, that's why it was so close to the place of torment. The place is commonly referred to as Abraham's Bosom.
I agree the names are interesting to note. Although if we look at the names they take on a meaning to the pharisees who are hearing the message from Jesus. Lazarus. Gr. Lazaros, a name derived from the common Hebrew name ’El‘azar (see on Ex. 6:23), which means “God has helped.” It is to be observed that the name is most appropriate to the spiritual condition of the man in the parable who bears it. Now if you where a pharisee and was hearing this you would ask your self why would God help a poor man because back then a poor man was not considered bless by God. And much worse why did he go to heaven and not hell!! surly God was teaching them to be rich is nothing but to be helped by God is everything. Now it also talks about Abraham, Father Abraham. Apparently, according to the parable, Abraham is presented as presiding over hadēs (see on v. 23). The rich man addresses Abraham as if he were God. The sufferer is a descendant of the patriarch, and appeals to him as a son to a father. And Jesus was quoting Luke 6:24. "remember that that your lifetime you received your good things" so in the end resting in Abraham's bosom is a example of resting in God.


Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.




If you notice I was using a hypothetical reason on what a rich Jew would say about a poor Jew. And the only paradise I see from the whole bible all talk about heaven.Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Try to read this again sir I posted the whole comment so you can read in context. Thanks and God bless.
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: Are you trying to change it when you know there is no text in all the Bible that links the words soul and eternal?


So What....who cares there is no scripture that links soul with the word eternal....There are several scriptures in the Bible that shows and demonstrates that the soul lives after death.

Now I ask you again....show me your scripture that says that the soul sleeps after death.

Don't evern waste your time because you wont find it. Soul consciousness after death is a Biblical Fact.... soul sleep is not.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
I agree the names are interesting to note. Although if we look at the names they take on a meaning to the pharisees who are hearing the message from Jesus. Lazarus. Gr. Lazaros, a name derived from the common Hebrew name ’El‘azar (see on Ex. 6:23), which means “God has helped.” It is to be observed that the name is most appropriate to the spiritual condition of the man in the parable who bears it. Now if you where a pharisee and was hearing this you would ask your self why would God help a poor man because back then a poor man was not considered bless by God. And much worse why did he go to heaven and not hell!! surly God was teaching them to be rich is nothing but to be helped by God is everything. Now it also talks about Abraham, Father Abraham. Apparently, according to the parable, Abraham is presented as presiding over hadēs (see on v. 23). The rich man addresses Abraham as if he were God. The sufferer is a descendant of the patriarch, and appeals to him as a son to a father. And Jesus was quoting Luke 6:24. "remember that that your lifetime you received your good things" so in the end resting in Abraham's bosom is a example of resting in God.


Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.



If you notice I was using a hypothetical reason on what a rich Jew would say about a poor Jew. And the only paradise I see from the whole bible all talk about heaven.Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Try to read this again sir I posted the whole comment so you can read in context. Thanks and God bless.
Maybe you should start over, it's not a parable, to begin with, Abraham is no 'God' rep, where why you must fabricate such nonsense, lol.

God wasn't teaching the rich man anything more than hell (gehenna) sucks, can't get water on your parched throat when you want it and everyone else across the way (gulf) IS getting 'it.' The rich man's sons were with HARDENED hearts, they were not going to believe, Abraham is God's prophet, God spoke through Abe but in no way, shape, or, form does Abe represent 'God.'
 
L

LawofLove

Guest
Maybe you should start over, it's not a parable, to begin with, Abraham is no 'God' rep, where why you must fabricate such nonsense, lol.

God wasn't teaching the rich man anything more than hell (gehenna) sucks, can't get water on your parched throat when you want it and everyone else across the way (gulf) IS getting 'it.' The rich man's sons were with HARDENED hearts, they were not going to believe, Abraham is God's prophet, God spoke through Abe but in no way, shape, or, form does Abe represent 'God.'
This just shows me you did not even look up the word "HELL" in theses verse about the Rich man and Lazarus

Luk 16:23 AndG2532 inG1722 hellG86 he lift upG1869 hisG848 eyes,G3788 beingG5225 inG1722 torments,G931 and seethG3708 AbrahamG11 afar off,G575 G3113 andG2532 LazarusG2976 inG1722 hisG846 bosom.G2859

The word is "hades" not (gehenna) as you say

Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
Lawoflove


Your interpretation of what you believe to be a parable is a very good one. Even though I don't belive that your interpretation is necessary, I still believe one can learn something from it. You write very well, and are abviously a very knowledgeable man of God and as I do the poster Laodicea, I respect you.

What if Lazarus was an actual person? What if Jesus told this story to enlighten us as to what really happens at death? I don't think Jesus would have told this story in this fashion if he was trying to make the point that you think he was making. Why would he risk being labled a fraud by quoting a known dead person....just to teach the pharisees a lesson? I believe this story is a historical fact and not a parable.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
This just shows me you did not even look up the word "HELL" in theses verse about the Rich man and Lazarus

Luk 16:23 AndG2532 inG1722 hellG86 he lift upG1869 hisG848 eyes,G3788 beingG5225 inG1722 torments,G931 and seethG3708 AbrahamG11 afar off,G575 G3113 andG2532 LazarusG2976 inG1722 hisG846 bosom.G2859

The word is "hades" not (gehenna) as you say

Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Speak to the Truth, lol, not the technicalities. So sub in your 'HELL' word, as you put it, for mine.
Does it change the Truth?

Lawoflove


Your interpretation of what you believe to be a parable is a very good one. Even though I don't belive that your interpretation is necessary, I still believe one can learn something from it. You write very well, and are abviously a very knowledgeable man of God and as I do the poster Laodicea, I respect you.

What if Lazarus was an actual person? What if Jesus told this story to enlighten us as to what really happens at death? I don't think Jesus would have told this story in this fashion if he was trying to make the point that you think he was making. Why would he risk being labled a fraud by quoting a known dead person....just to teach the pharisees a lesson? I believe this story is a historical fact and not a parable.
Excellent, iaminjc :)
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: Are you trying to change it when you know there is no text in all the Bible that links the words soul and eternal?


So What....who cares there is no scripture that links soul with the word eternal....There are several scriptures in the Bible that shows and demonstrates that the soul lives after death.

Now I ask you again....show me your scripture that says that the soul sleeps after death.

Don't evern waste your time because you wont find it. Soul consciousness after death is a Biblical Fact.... soul sleep is not.
The fact that the Bible never links the words soul and eternal shows that the soul is not eternal.
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


The word life in this verse is translated from the same word as soul, so it could read "The soul of the flesh is in the blood" If you are honest you have to admit that a person has to have blood to have a soul. When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

 
L

Laodicea

Guest
Lawoflove


Your interpretation of what you believe to be a parable is a very good one. Even though I don't belive that your interpretation is necessary, I still believe one can learn something from it. You write very well, and are abviously a very knowledgeable man of God and as I do the poster Laodicea, I respect you.

What if Lazarus was an actual person? What if Jesus told this story to enlighten us as to what really happens at death? I don't think Jesus would have told this story in this fashion if he was trying to make the point that you think he was making. Why would he risk being labled a fraud by quoting a known dead person....just to teach the pharisees a lesson? I believe this story is a historical fact and not a parable.
Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.
 
L

LawofLove

Guest
Lawoflove


Your interpretation of what you believe to be a parable is a very good one. Even though I don't belive that your interpretation is necessary, I still believe one can learn something from it. You write very well, and are abviously a very knowledgeable man of God and as I do the poster Laodicea, I respect you.

What if Lazarus was an actual person? What if Jesus told this story to enlighten us as to what really happens at death? I don't think Jesus would have told this story in this fashion if he was trying to make the point that you think he was making. Why would he risk being labled a fraud by quoting a known dead person....just to teach the pharisees a lesson? I believe this story is a historical fact and not a parable.
OK Lets look at this as a whole and try to understand whats going on here,
go back to the (lost son) Luke15:11 Jesus says "Then he said A certain man"
But before that it says "then he spoke a parable to them" verse 3
Now look at the (great supper)14:16 "The he said to him "a certain man"
Now look at the of the (leaven) 13:20 "And again He said"
Now look at (mustard seed) 13:18 "then he said"
Now look at the (barren fig tree) 13:6 "he also spoke this parable"
chapter 12:13-21 (The parable of the rich fool)
chapter 13:6-9 (The parable of the barren fig tree)
chapter 13:18-19 (Parable of the mustard seed)
chapter 13:20-21 (The Parable of the Leaven)
chapter 14:15-24 (The parable of the Great Supper)
chapter 15:1-7 (The parable of the lost sheep)
chapter 15:8-10 (The parable the lost coin)
chapter 15:11-32 (The lost son)

What do most of these Parables have in common? Well lost to say the lest but lets try and see my point about the why a parables starts in this cases.

And now we come to the parable of the Unjust Steward 16:1 Notice he says to them "he also said to His disciples there was a certain rich man"

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Notice verse 15 now after looking at all those Parables above "And he said to them and a certain man"

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

But let's don't lose the context in all this. Verse 14 says they are a "lover of money" after hearing all these things told to the disciples. So Jesus makes a contrast between the rich and poor.

In this parable Jesus continues the lesson set forth in the parable of the Dishonest Steward (ch. 16:1–12), that the use made of the opportunities of the present life determines future destiny (see on vs. 1, 4, 9, 11, 12). That parable had been addressed particularly to the disciples (see on v. 1), but in v. 9 Jesus had turned from the disciples to the Pharisees present (see on v. 9). The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus’ teachings on stewardship and sneered at Him (see v. 14). Jesus then pointed out that they might be honored by men, but that God read their hearts like an open book (see on v. 15). They had had sufficient light; they had long enjoyed the instruction of “the law and the prophets,” and since the ministry of John the added light of the gospel had been theirs (see on v. 16). In vs. 17, 18 Jesus affirms that the principles set forth in “the law” are immutable—God has not changed—and gives an example of this sublime truth. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is then given to show that destiny is decided in this present life by the use made of its privileges and opportunities Quote by: Nichol, Francis D.

As far as this being History about Lazarus, do you mean Jesus' friend Lazarus that came back to the dead?
later Jesus actually did raise Lazarus of Bethany from the dead (see John 11:1–46), there is no connection between the man of the parable and the one who became the object of Jesus’ greatest miracle. The real friend of Jesus was never liken to this man in the story John 11:2 he was the brother of Mary the same Mary that used expensive oil on Jesus' feet when she could of sold it to the poor. Plus Martha is showed to be a good host in her own house. I just don't see how this Lazarus, friend of Jesus was in anyway poor as the man in this parable in Luke 16
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
The fact that the Bible never links the words soul and eternal shows that the soul is not eternal.
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


The word life in this verse is translated from the same word as soul, so it could read "The soul of the flesh is in the blood" If you are honest you have to admit that a person has to have blood to have a soul. When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

Could you point out to me where the word 'life' or 'soul' is mentioned during time God makes a bunch of bones on the ground become sinewed witn flesh and blood?

This found in Ezekiel 37, lol.

Also, God breathed life into man and man became a living soul, Genesis 2:7 states.
What do you make of this?
 
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L

Laodicea

Guest
Could you point out to me where the word 'life' or 'soul' is mentioned during time God makes a bunch of bones on the ground become sinewed witn flesh and blood?

This found in Ezekiel 37, lol.

Also, God breathed life into man and man became a living soul, Genesis 2:7 states.
What do you make of this?
Does it have to be mentioned?
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Does it have to be mentioned?
No, but it would be nice, wouldn't it?

This whole great litter of bones on the ground that God...

1. Puts flesh and blood on
2. Breathes life into

nowhere are said to be 'beings' or have 'souls.' No 'life,' lol, YET they live ! This army, miraculously resurrected by God, lives. :)

Can not our great God make man with eternal life any way possible because all tbings are possible with God.

Really, we then need flesh and blood and bones in order to be a 'soul..'

The word 'soul' is so marvelous....

We can understand our individual spirit is from God, how God formed this empty shell of skin and bones and how God breathed life into man.

But, man, the word, 'soul!' Doesn't 'it' just getcha !

Soul is such a word that it is not 'spirit,,' it is not 'flesh,' it is not 'blood,' it is sole, lol. Soul. We are a living being or soul. It's al l-encompassing, really.
 
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L

LawofLove

Guest
Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.
It took me much longer to say the same thing lol
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.
OK Lets look at this as a whole and try to understand whats going on here,
go back to the (lost son) Luke15:11 Jesus says "Then he said A certain man"
But before that it says "then he spoke a parable to them" verse 3
Now look at the (great supper)14:16 "The he said to him "a certain man"
Now look at the of the (leaven) 13:20 "And again He said"
Now look at (mustard seed) 13:18 "then he said"
Now look at the (barren fig tree) 13:6 "he also spoke this parable"
chapter 12:13-21 (The parable of the rich fool)
chapter 13:6-9 (The parable of the barren fig tree)
chapter 13:18-19 (Parable of the mustard seed)
chapter 13:20-21 (The Parable of the Leaven)
chapter 14:15-24 (The parable of the Great Supper)
chapter 15:1-7 (The parable of the lost sheep)
chapter 15:8-10 (The parable the lost coin)
chapter 15:11-32 (The lost son)

What do most of these Parables have in common? Well lost to say the lest but lets try and see my point about the why a parables starts in this cases.

And now we come to the parable of the Unjust Steward 16:1 Notice he says to them "he also said to His disciples there was a certain rich man"

Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Notice verse 15 now after looking at all those Parables above "And he said to them and a certain man"

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

But let's don't lose the context in all this. Verse 14 says they are a "lover of money" after hearing all these things told to the disciples. So Jesus makes a contrast between the rich and poor.

In this parable Jesus continues the lesson set forth in the parable of the Dishonest Steward (ch. 16:1–12), that the use made of the opportunities of the present life determines future destiny (see on vs. 1, 4, 9, 11, 12). That parable had been addressed particularly to the disciples (see on v. 1), but in v. 9 Jesus had turned from the disciples to the Pharisees present (see on v. 9). The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus’ teachings on stewardship and sneered at Him (see v. 14). Jesus then pointed out that they might be honored by men, but that God read their hearts like an open book (see on v. 15). They had had sufficient light; they had long enjoyed the instruction of “the law and the prophets,” and since the ministry of John the added light of the gospel had been theirs (see on v. 16). In vs. 17, 18 Jesus affirms that the principles set forth in “the law” are immutable—God has not changed—and gives an example of this sublime truth. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is then given to show that destiny is decided in this present life by the use made of its privileges and opportunities Quote by: Nichol, Francis D.

As far as this being History about Lazarus, do you mean Jesus' friend Lazarus that came back to the dead?
later Jesus actually did raise Lazarus of Bethany from the dead (see John 11:1–46), there is no connection between the man of the parable and the one who became the object of Jesus’ greatest miracle. The real friend of Jesus was never liken to this man in the story John 11:2 he was the brother of Mary the same Mary that used expensive oil on Jesus' feet when she could of sold it to the poor. Plus Martha is showed to be a good host in her own house. I just don't see how this Lazarus, friend of Jesus was in anyway poor as the man in this parable in Luke 16
What about the verse ('verses,' I'm trying to sound erudite :D ) between Luke 16:15 and 16:19, does not the context get

broken

up by

the insertion of God suddenly talking about tittles of the law and man and womn and stuff ????

How do you con nect 'the steward' parable of 16:14 with the Lazarus and Dives parable 16:18 ?

There seems to be a serious disconnect.
______
Where is the con nect here too, the fact that the steward doesn't wisely use his resources has absolutely zilch to do with how rich man doesn
't help the poor man, Dives ?

C'mon, lol (laod or lawoflove), explain yourselves, thanks
 
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