The Divine Equation

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Jan 6, 2018
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#61
The point is not the performance per se...but the truth. When you judge the truth based on what men do with it...you have the the cart pulling the horse. (or the tail wagging the dog as it were). Paul is not offering examples by giving names...just stating the truth. Those who DO the law are justified by it. That's it. Those who don't do the law are condemned by it. That is the nature of law.

The balance is that we will all be judged by the law...those who claim to have grace yet continued to sin will be judged as sinners under the law. Those who have overcome sin by grace will be justified by.....the law.

We will all be judged by our works. THAT is the truth. If we are found to be sinners then we will be treated as sinners under the law. Grace is the power of God to help us fulfill the law. ...not to escape the truth of the law.

The law of gravity is real. But so is the law of flight. So as long as I am IN an airplane that follows the laws of flight...I can overcome the law of gravity.

So then the law of life IN Christ causes me to fly over the law of sin and death.

But as soon as I am no longer under the power of flight...I fall to the ground. Likewise as soon as I am no longer walking in the power of Christ then I am susceptible to various temptations.....
But Paul isn't saying anyone has been justified by following the law in Ro 2:13 that's why it is not a polar opposite of Ro 3:20 because everyone has broken the law. Your truth equation is rubbish.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#62
Well, "you reap what you sow" does sound a bit like Karma's statement of what goes around comes around. What you do to others will be done to you, if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven.

I had no problem with him saying it sounds vaguely like the concept of karma. Because it does!
You reep what you sow is not about the next lifetime though, its about this lifetime, that is where the disconnect comes.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#63
But Paul isn't saying anyone has been justified by following the law in Ro 2:13 that's why it is not a polar opposite of Ro 3:20 because everyone has broken the law. Your truth equation is rubbish.
Iagree, they are not polar opposites.

1 says we are not saved by law

The other says those who are saved, do obey the law.

1 is talking about what does or does nto save us, the other is talking about what a saved person looks like.

As you said, no one has fulfilled the law. Even a child of God can not fulfill the requirements of the law. So no one could be saved because they obayed the law. That would be impossible
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#64
Iagree, they are not polar opposites.

1 says we are not saved by law

The other says those who are saved, do obey the law.

1 is talking about what does or does nto save us, the other is talking about what a saved person looks like.

As you said, no one has fulfilled the law. Even a child of God can not fulfill the requirements of the law. So no one could be saved because they obayed the law. That would be impossible
I would say that one says justification is accomplished by keeping the law and the latter says everyone has broken the law. Those are not polar opposite premises.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#65
You reep what you sow is not about the next lifetime though, its about this lifetime, that is where the disconnect comes.

You just earlier said that it DOES have to do with the next life in that your position will be either high or low...
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#66
My first thread in the chats....(besides intro of course ;) )

Greetings to all my precious brothers and sisters in Christ.
The subject I would like to bring some attention to is one that involves the makeup of truth. It is the easiest thing in the world to get the bible wrong and specifically to mis-understand Paul (even Peter attests to that fact). Why is that?

Well, the truth is like a wheel within wheel. It seems to be going in more than one direction at a time. It can only be understood by us humans as an equation with 2 polarities...like a magnet has (north and south) or the positive and negative poles of a battery. Even our planet (dear old Earth) has a magnetic polarity that stops us from burning up from solar flares. So likewise if we want to stay away from the fires of righteous judgment that burn up our own works (and reveal the lack of truth in us) we will need to provide balance and polarity to our understanding.

Every seeming nice sounding verse has another verse that sounds the opposite. Everything in the bible has both a "good" side and a "bad" side, but all this is beneficial for us to grow into the full knowledge of Christ. It is only as we take on ALL the verses....the blessings AND the cursings....and truly allow ourselves to be inspected and purged by the Holy Spirit will we be able to grow into the truth and the likeness of Christ. As the disciples asked when Jesus said that one of them would betray Him..."Lord, is it I?"

L....,

Really?......we must acknowledge that G-d has given us The Bible.... as a road map..... for us to get from this earthly physical life to His promised spiritual heavenly life.
Correlated with that He states...... that it is His desire that none of us are destroyed.

Do you really think it is fair of Him...... if your conclusion of His word is correct?

I see His message of guidance so simple as something..... a 10 year old can understand.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#67
The Bible also has truth at different levels of meaning, and ways of expressing the meaning of a verse or passage. One big mistake is believing that one has the complete truth of a reading and completely discounting truth discovered by others. We are all on a journey of discovery.

Amen! Good to meet you! :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#68
The odd thing to me is that I have seen Him cause me to stop murdering in my heart and thinking it's perfectly fine and normal. And I have seen Him bring down my pride so I don't get touchy, snippy and rude as I used to, always defending my "honor" and demanding my "rights."

And to see that He works to make me lawabiding in my inner man, my heart, makes me glad, makes me feel safe and secure in His hands.

The odd part is that before He began to make me lawabiding in spirit, I was miserable. Always miserable. Yet, to talk about how He makes us lawabiding in spirit always raises great controversy when it should cause great rejoicing instead. That's the odd part.

If God is always about making us more and more like our Lord, would we expect Him to be making us LESS lawabiding in spirit?

I've no idea if that has made sense to anyone but me.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#69
its not a conundrum actually

Grace saves (Assures eternal life with God in eternity)

We reap what we sow here on earth (we are blessed or cursed by our actions)

But sowing has nothing to do with salvation.

Karma says what we do in this life times will determine what our next lifetime will be like (either a low or high State of being)

Grace says our next lifetime will be perfection with God,,

Karma is NOTHINK like grace, nor are they even remotely alike.
Sowing has nothing to do with salvation???? Very far from the truth. We reap life by sowing to the Spirit...and we reap death by sowing to the flesh. Unless you think that there is such a thing as "death salvation."

I said it "sounds" like...not is. people judge superficially too often. And here again is a superficial assessment of what I'm saying.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#70
L....,

Really?......we must acknowledge that G-d has given us The Bible.... as a road map..... for us to get from this earthly physical life to His promised spiritual heavenly life.
Correlated with that He states...... that it is His desire that none of us are destroyed.

Do you really think it is fair of Him...... if your conclusion of His word is correct?

I see His message of guidance so simple as something..... a 10 year old can understand.

I think God deals with us as we are. So if we try complicating a simple walk in holiness with a salvation through human belief....we complicate for ourselves the road to leads to life...making it impenetrable.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#71
The odd thing to me is that I have seen Him cause me to stop murdering in my heart and thinking it's perfectly fine and normal. And I have seen Him bring down my pride so I don't get touchy, snippy and rude as I used to, always defending my "honor" and demanding my "rights."

And to see that He works to make me lawabiding in my inner man, my heart, makes me glad, makes me feel safe and secure in His hands.

The odd part is that before He began to make me lawabiding in spirit, I was miserable. Always miserable. Yet, to talk about how He makes us lawabiding in spirit always raises great controversy when it should cause great rejoicing instead. That's the odd part.

If God is always about making us more and more like our Lord, would we expect Him to be making us LESS lawabiding in spirit?

I've no idea if that has made sense to anyone but me.
Love fulfills the law! :) Peace to you.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#72
Well, "you reap what you sow" does sound a bit like Karma's statement of what goes around comes around. What you do to others will be done to you, if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven.

I had no problem with him saying it sounds vaguely like the concept of karma. Because it does!

I'm glad somebody is tracking! :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#73
But there are 2 main laws, 2 tablets of the commandments, 2 resurrections, etc

And then there are 3...3 sons of Noah, 3 persons in God, etc...
None of that detracts from the essential oneness that is described in Ephesians. In other words, there is no dualism or duality as you propose.

Yes there are quite a few numbers which have spiritual significance in the Bible. But that is an entirely different subject.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#74
You miss Paul's point entirely. No one is ever justified by the law (except Christ). And grace does not enable us to keep the law, but to walk by the spirit, which fulfills all righteousness demanded by the law (Romans 8:4)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#75
None of that detracts from the essential oneness that is described in Ephesians. In other words, there is no dualism or duality as you propose.

Yes there are quite a few numbers which have spiritual significance in the Bible. But that is an entirely different subject.

How many tablets are there of commandments? How many main commandments?

You are confusing numbers with truth.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#76
I read everything he has said, and I must admit, I may have to hear more. but his thoughts are worrysome, Saying grace is like Karma? Thats dangerous, they are nothing alike
Who said grace is like Karma? Reading skills reading skills.... ;)
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#77
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
But the point you are missing is that all the Gentiles have still broken the law so they can't be justified since they haven't even kept it.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#78
There are 2 main commandments...according to the 2 tablets of the 10 commandments...

1. to love God

2. to love others

So the purpose of the law is to get us to love.

So then love fulfills the law.

Rom. 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#79
But the point you are missing is that all the Gentiles have still broken the law so they can't be justified since they haven't even kept it.

Just read the bible passages and stop with the faulty reasoning...please. Thank you.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#80
A second read through of this thread has been helpful.
Post #38 was especially helpful to understanding what you were trying to say. :)
Welcome to the forums. We are glad to have you.