The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
293
60
28
#1
The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ “But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in everything we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of
God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted
worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,
and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
2,728
457
83
#2
All of Dispensationalism comes from a GAP between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks scripture does not mention. From there it cuts and pastes scripture out of context to paint in its scheme. They deny Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks as written. They turn him into Antichrist. And develop a chain of false prophecy based on that calling for a restored Roman Empire. Because that was the setting the 70th week took part in. The kingdom did come during the 70th week but since they and the Pharisees looked for a physical kingdom, they missed it. The Kingdom came but it was spiritual.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
4,092
949
113
#3
Pretrib rapture originated with Jesus.

Blame it on him.

Read mat 24 and 25.
"Before the flood..."
Show us any catching away after the flood.
In fact go ahead and look at rev 14.
Ripe fruit HARVESTED DURING THE TRIB. Most likely Jews since the firstfruits immediately precede them .

The vision by McDonald aligns perfectly.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,495
2,943
113
#4
Regarding the OP:

What do you have against paragraphs?

(just wondering)
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
2,728
457
83
#5
Pretrib rapture originated with Jesus.

Blame it on him.

Read mat 24 and 25.
"Before the flood..."
Show us any catching away after the flood.
In fact go ahead and look at rev 14.
Ripe fruit HARVESTED DURING THE TRIB. Most likely Jews since the firstfruits immediately precede them .

The vision by McDonald aligns perfectly.
You can read into scripture anything you want. But Paul and Jesus place the rapture on earth's last day after the resurrection.
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,348
1,265
113
#6
Pretrib rapture originated with Jesus.

Blame it on him.

Read mat 24 and 25.
"Before the flood..."
Show us any catching away after the flood.
In fact go ahead and look at rev 14.
Ripe fruit HARVESTED DURING THE TRIB. Most likely Jews since the firstfruits immediately precede them .

The vision by McDonald aligns perfectly.
God did not bring any new prophecy after John.

McDonald was simply trusting in things not there like those in Colossians 2:18 they add to scripture making it as it wt ritten to no effect.

The flood that continues to come until the last day began as the wrath of God being revealed from heaven. When Jesus said. it is finished. . . the ressurection gates were open .

The "great tribulation" began when the veil was rent one like never before or ever again There is no tribulation we are waiting for .the end will come on the last day the renting of veil signaled the beging of the last days.

There are not two end scenarios.

What I would call I told you before hand doctrine. Do not add or subtract from the perfect . sealed it with 7 seal .

Yes it would seem Mc Donald broke a seal .Just as Mohmmad , or Charles Russel, or the Pope . Can't invent tribulations and turn them into unfulfilled signs as wonderments, amazements, sources of the unseen . One source as it is written. . prophecy.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to "this time", no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.Mathew24:21- 25

To "this time",this time being the present. The same tribulation we see today the time of Jacobs trouble.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal, not by sight, the temporal, seen .
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,032
1,318
113
#7
The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.
Yes, we've all heard the stories of those who claim that Darby, Mary and the others, who supposedly introduced the gathering of the church as taking place prior to the tribulation. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings of others!

I have never read anything by any of those people, but came to the conclusion from all related scriptures that the Lord is going to gather His church/bride prior to His wrath being pouring out which will be initiated by the first seal being opened.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"

"there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not be shortened, no one would be left alive.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, it is Jesus who will be unleashing these plagues of wrath. And since that is the truth, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience that wrath.

Neither Darby, nor Mary MacDonald wrote the word of God and that is where we get the information, understanding God's nature, that believers in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Soon the Lord is going to appear in the air and with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and is going to call up the dead and change the living, where the entire church, from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where His we may be also.

My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating the well known false teachings of men and stick with the written word of God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,610
4,078
113
#8
The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman
This is blatantly false. It is a part of anti-Pretribulation Rapture propaganda. FAKE NEWS. Sick and deranged.

The Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture is a biblical doctrine which is based upon that fact that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints at the Second Coming. See John 14:1-3 and many other passages.

The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving and the ungodly. They have no bearing on the Church. And you will not find the words "church" or "churches" from Revelation chapter 6 onwards (which describe the events of the Tribulation and Great Tribulation).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
9,156
1,232
113
#9
The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ “But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in everything we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of
God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted
worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,
and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
2,728
457
83
#10
Yes, we've all heard the stories of those who claim that Darby, Mary and the others, who supposedly introduced the gathering of the church as taking place prior to the tribulation. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings of others!

I have never read anything by any of those people, but came to the conclusion from all related scriptures that the Lord is going to gather His church/bride prior to His wrath being pouring out which will be initiated by the first seal being opened.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"

"there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not be shortened, no one would be left alive.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, it is Jesus who will be unleashing these plagues of wrath. And since that is the truth, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience that wrath.

Neither Darby, nor Mary MacDonald wrote the word of God and that is where we get the information, understanding God's nature, that believers in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Soon the Lord is going to appear in the air and with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and is going to call up the dead and change the living, where the entire church, from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where His we may be also.

My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating the well known false teachings of men and stick with the written word of God.
When the Lord soon returns it will be the end of the world. And the beginning of the New Heavens and earth. The Premillennialist and Pharisees missed the kingdom entirely looking for a physical kingdom instead.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,348
1,265
113
#12
Yes, we've all heard the stories of those who claim that Darby, Mary and the others, who supposedly introduced the gathering of the church as taking place prior to the tribulation. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings of others!

I have never read anything by any of those people, but came to the conclusion from all related scriptures that the Lord is going to gather His church/bride prior to His wrath being pouring out which will be initiated by the first seal being opened.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"

"there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not be shortened, no one would be left alive.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, it is Jesus who will be unleashing these plagues of wrath. And since that is the truth, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience that wrath.

Neither Darby, nor Mary MacDonald wrote the word of God and that is where we get the information, understanding God's nature, that believers in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Soon the Lord is going to appear in the air and with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and is going to call up the dead and change the living, where the entire church, from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where His we may be also.

My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating the well known false teachings of men and stick with the written word of God.

Its not that difficult to understand that we are still experiencing the wrath of the great tribulation called the last days. According to Romans it is being reveled from heaven

Its easy to see where it began as that like never before or ever again called the reformation .Religion lost a outward face to relate to .The time period was over. God had given over the faithless Jew to do what the should not of. The abomination of desolation things seen standing in the place of faith the unseen glory of God. . usurped by the things of men.

No sign as a wonder in respect to another kind of ending other than the last day . The time period shorted for the elect is called last days . headed toward the last. When death as to the letter of the law will be cast in the fiery judgement of God.. . never to rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation ever again.

Matthew 24:20-22 King James Version (KJV) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God is not a man as us. He has no begining.

Matthew 24:25-26 King James Version (KJV) Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Again called the last day .Not the day of on going vacation in a hideout and then returning in a new body neither male nor female, Jew no gentile living amongst Zombies. That's more Hollywood I would think. .
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
293
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#13
All of Dispensationalism comes from a GAP between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks scripture does not mention. From there it cuts and pastes scripture out of context to paint in its scheme. They deny Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks as written. They turn him into Antichrist. And develop a chain of false prophecy based on that calling for a restored Roman Empire. Because that was the setting the 70th week took part in. The kingdom did come during the 70th week but since they and the Pharisees looked for a physical kingdom, they missed it. The Kingdom came but it was spiritual.
Yes and I love a challenge and to challenge. I will always back up what I preach with researched scripture. The letter from Ms. Margaret MacDonald is real, can be found and in depth research will find that some big name preachers of the past participated in the spread of the Pre-Trib Doctrine. In spite of what the word of God says in 2 Thess. 2:1-5 and the fact that the so called seven years of the wrath of God are never mentioned in the Bible, nor are the words "seven years of Tribulation" written anywhere in scripture. Pre-Tribber's also believe that the 144,000 will go about the earth "Re-Evangelizing" a whole new body of Christ after the first body of Christ is taken up. But that function of the 144,000 con not be found written anywhere in the Word of GOD neither. The 144,000 are born, raised, sealed and stay in Israel because they are not intended to minister to the lost anywhere else in the world. Their ministry is to the Jew only.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,354
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www.christiancourier.com
#14
When the Lord soon returns it will be the end of the world. And the beginning of the New Heavens and earth. The Premillennialist and Pharisees missed the kingdom entirely looking for a physical kingdom instead.
There are Christians today who are looking for that very thing, a physical kingdom.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,610
4,078
113
#15
When the Lord soon returns it will be the end of the world. And the beginning of the New Heavens and earth. The Premillennialist and Pharisees missed the kingdom entirely looking for a physical kingdom instead.
Here's some more FALSE DOCTRINE. One does not oppose one false doctrine with another which is equally false.

The Second Coming of Christ will NOT usher in the end of the world but the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. And since Jesus comes WITH His saints at angels at His Second Coming, it should be clear to all that He will firstly come FOR His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Then the judgment of the works of the saints will take place in Heaven at the Judgment Seat of Christ, followed by the Marriage of the Lamb. Then after that Christ will come with His saints and angels to the battle of Armageddon, where He will destroy all His enemies. See Revelation 19 and many other Scriptures both in the OT and in the NT.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,296
427
83
#16
All of Dispensationalism comes from a GAP between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks scripture does not mention. From there it cuts and pastes scripture out of context to paint in its scheme. They deny Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks as written. They turn him into Antichrist. And develop a chain of false prophecy based on that calling for a restored Roman Empire. Because that was the setting the 70th week took part in. The kingdom did come during the 70th week but since they and the Pharisees looked for a physical kingdom, they missed it. The Kingdom came but it was spiritual.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 weeks are determined upon the nation of Israel and Jerusalem, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Who do people think the most Holy is but it is Jesus.

The nation of Israel has 70 weeks to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

But we see that the nation of Israel has not acknowledged Jesus as their Lord and Savior so how can the 70 weeks be fulfilled.

69 weeks has passed with one week to go which the last week, 7 years, is the time that God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the man of sin, New Age Christ, so He can end this sin business on earth, and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Which God warns the saints of the new age movement and their false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people are still evolving by the power of nature the God of forces.

It is Israel that has to fulfill the 70 weeks for 70 weeks is determined upon them to make an end of sins and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is the New Age Christ that establishes peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel for the Gentile nations will see to it, and the Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth, and the time the world will want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement.

Which the new age movement will pave the way to the beast kingdom.

The new age movement which will come out at the latter times which is now is the beginning of the end for the wicked.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

The man of sin will establish the covenant for one week and cause the abomination of desolation for Jesus does not cause it for Jesus told the Jews in the truth to run when they see it happen and why would they run from Jesus, and also it states that the person that causes the abomination of desolation is standing where He ought not, but it is Jesus' temple and He would not violate it by standing in it.

In Daniel 9:27 the person causes the overspreading of abominations and causes the abomination of desolation but how can that be Jesus for the person that caused the abomination of desolation is spreading falsehood and lies throughout the world that is based on the occult and people with no higher authority above them.

70 weeks have to be fulfilled by the nation of Israel which they are not in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, so how could the 70 weeks be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Which Israel is blinded in part which the majority do not accept the New Testament, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in when salvation is no longer available to them, and so all Israel will be saved in which God will take away their sins and Israel in the truth.

Which God said He is going to gather all the Jews out of the nations the whole house of Jacob and bring them back to their land and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the Lord their God from that day forth, and He will never hide His face from them again.

Which this is a future prophesy for if it was in the past the nation of Israel would be in the truth.

The man of sin, New Age Christ, will establish peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel for the Gentile nations will see to it, and none of them will be left in the nations anymore.

The Jews will rebuild their temple and go back to animal sacrifices for they are still blinded in part with no hassle from the Palestinians, and the Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth and the 7 years period will begin.

The world will be split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section which an example is America, Canada, and Mexico as nation number one and the world will want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement as well as all religions interpreted by them and they stop the preaching of the Gospel for they say it is not true and they want peace on earth.

Repentance and salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years so the resurrection will not occur.

The 10 horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace and they turn to the New Age Christ as the solution, and he steps in to the Jews temple and claims to be their God and Messiah, and when the world that does not love God takes the mark of the beast which is the microchip linked to satellite a GPS for humans then repentance and salvation is no longer available to the world, and the fulness of the Gentile have come in.

God will then turn Israel to the truth by 2 witnesses for the last three and one half years, and the Jews that know the truth will work with the other Jews so they understand and at the end of the 7 years period Israel is in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah and the 70 weeks have been fulfilled.

The nation of Israel has to fulfill the 70 weeks for the 70 weeks is determined upon them to take action and acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

The Bible is plain that the nation of Israel has 70 weeks to anoint the most Holy who is Jesus which they are not in the truth to this very day, so how could the 70 weeks be fulfilled if the nation of Israel is not in the truth that is determined upon them to fulfill.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,354
2,102
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#17
Yes and I love a challenge and to challenge. I will always back up what I preach with researched scripture. The letter from Ms. Margaret MacDonald is real, can be found and in depth research will find that some big name preachers of the past participated in the spread of the Pre-Trib Doctrine. In spite of what the word of God says in 2 Thess. 2:1-5 and the fact that the so called seven years of the wrath of God are never mentioned in the Bible, nor are the words "seven years of Tribulation" written anywhere in scripture. Pre-Tribber's also believe that the 144,000 will go about the earth "Re-Evangelizing" a whole new body of Christ after the first body of Christ is taken up. But that function of the 144,000 con not be found written anywhere in the Word of GOD neither. The 144,000 are born, raised, sealed and stay in Israel because they are not intended to minister to the lost anywhere else in the world. Their ministry is to the Jew only.
"Pre-Trubber's" . "Free-Willers". Makes one go, hmmmm. :unsure:
Therefore, your argument is that the pre-tribulation rapture is not stated in writing anywhere in scripture?

Rather than preach here at yet another site that the pre-tribulation rapture is delusion from the mind of a Scottish woman in the 1800's, why not tell us what you do believe about the end times, and Revelation?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,354
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#18
And in fairness to the woman maligned in the OP, a different view so that the reader may have a fair opportunity to decide for themselves.
#8 Margaret McDonald's Vision in 1830

The Epistle of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 and continues into chapter 5. This is because Saul's/Paul's epistles (letters) were not divided into chapter form as are scriptures today. They were one continuous letter

Chapter 4 Chapter 5
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
293
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#19
This is blatantly false. It is a part of anti-Pretribulation Rapture propaganda. FAKE NEWS. Sick and deranged.

The Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture is a biblical doctrine which is based upon that fact that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints at the Second Coming. See John 14:1-3 and many other passages.

The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are for the unbelieving and the ungodly. They have no bearing on the Church. And you will not find the words "church" or "churches" from Revelation chapter 6 on wards (which describe the events of the Tribulation and Great Tribulation).
Please show me what verse in the Word of God tells us that "The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation" are for the unbelieving and the ungodly??? Show me some scripture. Prove me wrong. Put your scripture where your mouth is. Telling me anything about what the Word Of God say without quotture proves nothing at all and the undisputed truth is that a doctrine or belief without scripture to back up the belief is a FALSE TEACHING.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY (Resurrection day) SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THE MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION. THE SON OF PERDITION IS THE ANTICHRIST.
I am not afraid of changing what I believe the Bible says but I need scripture that proves me wrong. Please keep it in your mind that I sit here with my research book beside me and before I do any replies I research my answer first before I reply


Yes, we've all heard the stories of those who claim that Darby, Mary and the others, who supposedly introduced the gathering of the church as taking place prior to the tribulation. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings of others!

I have never read anything by any of those people, but came to the conclusion from all related scriptures that the Lord is going to gather His church/bride prior to His wrath being pouring out which will be initiated by the first seal being opened.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"

"there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not be shortened, no one would be left alive.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, it is Jesus who will be unleashing these plagues of wrath. And since that is the truth, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience that wrath.

Neither Darby, nor Mary MacDonald wrote the word of God and that is where we get the information, understanding God's nature, that believers in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Soon the Lord is going to appear in the air and with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and is going to call up the dead and change the living, where the entire church, from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where His we may be also.

My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating the well known false teachings of men and stick with the written word of God.
"
Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"
Please don't tell me about false teachings unless you can produce scripture that proves that a Pre-Tribulation doctrine is proven by scripture.
So Show me some scriptural proof. Prove me wrong. Put your scripture where your mouth is.
You keep speaking of a period of "seven of wrath" , show me the scripture where it tells us that there will be seven years of the wrath of God
I am not afraid of changing what I believe the Bible says but I need scripture that proves me wrong. Please keep it in your mind that I sit here with my research book beside me and before I do any replies I research my answer first before I reply
.
How about scripture from the book of Daniel.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The above prophecy has never been fulfilled to date, and is still yet in our future. I submit to you that the horn in verse 21 is that antichrist, the war spoken of in this same verse is the great tribulation.
Verse 22 is talking about Resurrection day and we all know that when Resurrection day come we will all possessed the kingdom.
So the big question is "what saints will the horn/antichrist be making war against??? Is it us or will it be those left behind??? If it is those left behind where is the scripture that proves there is a second chance to be saved. I Have never found any scripture that re-enforces a pre- tribulation doctrine.

 

Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
139
55
28
#20
I read that ..what is being talked about here and went seeking. What I found was a man that wrote hymns and was a preacher. He wrote about believers being caught up before the great tribulation. This was written in about 300-400AD. Then I watched on TV a Christian channel this man (forgot his name. Can see his face lol) that is gone home now. He on this show was talking about this same Hymn writer and showed the scrolls. And found even earlier scrolls from others talking about caught up PRE TRIB.

This DOES NOT prove PRE TRIB is right. But does prove that they did in fact talk preach about it.