The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,597
3,526
113
#61
Do you think the Christ-rejecting Jews got it right? That is why they killed him. Because he didn't line up with their idea of the Kingdom.
This is why John the Baptist doubted. Jesus was not fulfilling those OT prophecies. He was not placing the government upon his shoulder and coming to power.

Matthew 11
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#62
They rejected Christ as king of the Jews so they crucified him. Jesus claimed he was the Messiah, the son of God. After that, they rejected his death, burial and resurrection so the physical kingdom was postponed. Before the physical could be given, the spiritual had to be believed. This will take place in the great tribulation before the return of the King.
He didn't fit the mold they were looking for. Especially the Kingdom mold.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
#63
The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ “But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in everything we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of
God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted
worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,
and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”
The whole sorry history can be read in a book titled The incredible cover-up by Dave MacPherson published in 1975 by Logos International MacPherson spent years following the the serpentine paper trail to discover the truth about all this. The book is unfortunately out of print but second hand copies could be obtained at Amazon where I managed to get one about a year ago.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,163
6,523
113
#64
Matthew, Chapter 57:

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

IF this is the preTribulation Rapture folks are speaking of, well, ok. HOWEVER, we are currently living in the Tribulations now, so the NEXT RAPTURE spoken of by Paul will be the LAST RAPTURE, and the END OF THE WORLD.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


THAT WILL BE THE END OF THE WORLD! ALL THAT WILL REMAIN IS THE JUDGEMENT SEAT........The separation of the wheat from the chafe............those in Christ will receive their eternal reward, and those without Christ will receive their eternal damnation.

It really ain't all that hard to understand folks........but, shoot, y'all go ahead and argue about it, it's fun to read....

popcorn.png
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#65
Paul never mentions the kingdom of heaven, only the kingdom of God. Paul knew the promised Jewish, physical kingdom was not to be preached because of the rejection of Jesus as their king. Only the kingdom of God is at hand now until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in.
Yes that exact dynamic was debunked.
They are interchangeable
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#66
Matthew, Chapter 57:

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


IF this is the preTribulation Rapture folks are speaking of, well, ok. HOWEVER, we are currently living in the Tribulations now, so the NEXT RAPTURE spoken of by Paul will be the LAST RAPTURE, and the END OF THE WORLD.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15:

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


THAT WILL BE THE END OF THE WORLD! ALL THAT WILL REMAIN IS THE JUDGEMENT SEAT........The separation of the wheat from the chafe............those in Christ will receive their eternal reward, and those without Christ will receive their eternal damnation.

It really ain't all that hard to understand folks........but, shoot, y'all go ahead and argue about it, it's fun to read....

View attachment 212076
Nothing on earth today resembles the gt.
Nothing
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,597
3,526
113
#68
I didn't realize that replacement theology was such a popular opinion.:(
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#69
The whole sorry history can be read in a book titled The incredible cover-up by Dave MacPherson published in 1975 by Logos International MacPherson spent years following the the serpentine paper trail to discover the truth about all this. The book is unfortunately out of print but second hand copies could be obtained at Amazon where I managed to get one about a year ago.
Lol
Your guy followed the serpentine trail to attack a biblical doctrine.

Proves my earlier point.
The pretrib rapture attackers are centered in disenfranchisement. It is their life and drive.
Not their correctness,but their obsession with disproving a group centering on the bible.
Misguided starting place.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#71
Paul never mentions the kingdom of heaven, only the kingdom of God. Paul knew the promised Jewish, physical kingdom was not to be preached because of the rejection of Jesus as their king. Only the kingdom of God is at hand now until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in.
Ephesians 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,082
1,749
113
#72
The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
There are different versions of MacDonald's account of her vision, depending on who related them. i read a version many years ago and did not see an argument for a pre-trib rapture in it.

You should be careful about slandering the dead, too. If they are dead, does that mean it is not slander? what evidence is there that she was 'deranged'? She was said to have been physically sick and instantly, if I recall correctly, when her brother commanded her to arise, using a quote from scripture, after she'd prayed that he be filled with the Holy Ghost. 'Sick and deranged' makes her sound mentally ill. I have never heard of any evidence of that.

I have also read that Darby wrote his pre-trib theory before this incident anyway. And I have read Darby rejected what happened with the McDonald's family, anyway. It does not make sense to attribute his eschatological innovations to them.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,597
3,526
113
#73
Ephesians 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Great verse, what's your point? Inheritance in the kingdom of God?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#74
There are different versions of MacDonald's account of her vision, depending on who related them. i read a version many years ago and did not see an argument for a pre-trib rapture in it.

You should be careful about slandering the dead, too. If they are dead, does that mean it is not slander? what evidence is there that she was 'deranged'? She was said to have been physically sick and instantly, if I recall correctly, when her brother commanded her to arise, using a quote from scripture, after she'd prayed that he be filled with the Holy Ghost. 'Sick and deranged' makes her sound mentally ill. I have never heard of any evidence of that.

I have also read that Darby wrote his pre-trib theory before this incident anyway. And I have read Darby rejected what happened with the McDonald's family, anyway. It does not make sense to attribute his eschatological innovations to them.
Her vision is pretrib.
Her interpretation is postrib(she believed that the church needed the gt for cleansing and purification)
So she believed the church goes through the gt.
Postrib confusion. She seemed to have it.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#75
Great verse, what's your point? Inheritance in the kingdom of God?
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Kingdom of God/heaven is the same thing.
Iow at the last of acts we find your doctrine debunked.

Your welcome.
I knew you were not going to investigate it.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#76
Eph 5;5 is a bonus.
We see the kingdom of Christ/God/heaven all the same thing
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,294
7,235
113
#77
What was the name of the Hymn? I have a book, the Dictionary of Early Chruch Beliefs by David Bercot and the Pre-Tribulation doctrine didn't exist in the early church before 300 AD.
The Apostle Paul was the originator. Clearly. I really don't know why all the debate.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,320
12,851
113
#78
The letter from Ms. Margaret MacDonald is real
Regardless of whether that letter was from Margaret McDonald, Old McDonald, or Ronald McDonald, Christians should simply focus on what is actually in the pages of Scripture, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and spiritually discerning what God and Christ have revealed.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#79
Regardless of whether that letter was from Margaret McDonald, Old McDonald, or Ronald McDonald, Christians should simply focus on what is actually in the pages of Scripture, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and spiritually discerning what God and Christ have revealed.
I never said the Letter from Margaret MacDonald was accurate because it is not, which is why the Pre-Trib doctrine is a false teaching.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,597
3,526
113
#80
Eph 5;5 is a bonus.
We see the kingdom of Christ/God/heaven all the same thing
Does the word God and heaven mean the same thing? Nope. God is a spirit, heaven is a place. Then the kingdom of God is not the same as the kingdom of heaven. Pretty simple.