The doctrine of election and reprobation

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Jan 6, 2018
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My understanding is, we were chosen for salvation before the earth was made but we are still born into the world sinners like everyone else. God chooses a time when He calls us out of the world, we don't chose that time and we have anything to do with that timing.
He calls and enables everyone Jn 1:9 to seek Him not only an elect few.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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I've heard some good sermons describing salvation as a completely passive experience. I was shown Bible passages which state that we are born dead in our sin, when it says "DEAD" we believe it means dead. A dead person can do?, that's right nothing. Now you agree that it is entirely passive
Before regeneration our spirits are dead because they are separated from the life of GOD. But man's spirit is not actually dead and yearns to be free from bondage to eternal death. It is written that all who learn of the father come to Christ. So it is evident that before regeneration man's spirit does hear and respond to the holy spirit, and when the time comes GOD illuminates the heart with the knowledge of Christ and a person believes with the heart into righteousness.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Before regeneration our spirits are dead because they are separated from the life of GOD. But man's spirit is not dead per se and yearns to be free from bondage to eternal death. It is written that all who learn of the father come to Christ. So it is evident that before regeneration man's spirit does hear and respond to the holy spirit, and when the time comes GOD illuminates the heart with the knowledge of Christ and a person believes with the heart into righteousness.
Yes, everybody gets that illumination:


The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1:9 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.9.NLT
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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I can assure of this! The older I get? The less tolerant I seem to be with the those who have (supposedly) confessed Christ before men? Yet, are unable, or unwilling (which really burns my arse...like a candle about "that" high :)) in "picking up their cross", and going through Christ unto Our Father! Just as Jesus has His "priests!" So has Our Father in Heaven! There are many reasons why, I suppose. Refusing to allow oneself to be vetted by the Lord of the Harvest, to allow oneself to be "spanked constantly" with the "winnowing forks", but, rather believe that these "events" don't occur, until the end of the age, and so are regarded as when one's flesh body, is looking at the bottom side of a lawnmower? Constitutes, in these eyes, anyway, one being "willingly ignorant!" Having said that? I can more fully understand Our Heavenly Father's "wrath" in forcing some Sheeple, to believe a lie!

(sighs) "Buy 'em books, and send 'em to school?" "What do they do?" "Jump on their desks, and chew on the covers!"

As far as going through my other post? Ask God, in the Son, to help you make less the "void", in the/those "mansions of abidance" (meno, in the greek), you are currently in, "Caused" by (the) traditions of man. And, you may "see", a lessor number of "birdy's", that swoop down, and gobble the Word! You may feel, a deepening of "spiritual" roots! Roots that eventually, encircle the "stone", and crush it! You may see, as it seems you already have, and do, a "rising" up in the "way", or hard-packed ground, in spite of it! Or, another analogy, the more one "grows?" The more the Word of God, that is "thrown" at ya? The more of it, that "sticks!" Also called spiritual discernment.

I may be preaching to the choir, as far as your concerned. And, offer my apologies, if I have done so. But, at this point in time, and my own spiritual growth. It is (a) platform that I have and use, in my efforts of "enlargening" the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light! In spite of, and "in the face" of Nimrod's digital "tower of babel!"
Our Pastor said on Sunday that the Christian life is very hard and the non believers live easier lives in general. They enjoy this world and they strive to get the most out of this world, while the Christian is striving for the next world.
So I would encourage you to tolerate weaker brothers as much as you can, we don't know if they are genuine or not so we must give them the benefit of the doubt.
I have been taken advantage of by false believers, it's a very unpleasant experience. It's not as bad when a worldly man takes advantage but it hurts much more when a so called brother does.
Remember, your reward will be great in heaven. This is not our home, we are aliens here so keep your eyes on the prize.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I would love to do this. but, when folks just yank verses out of context, misrepresent what others say, and will not answer questions, it seems to me it is a battle of trying to prove someone wrong, instead of having a discussion.

this format works well if done in q and a, but when lecturing takes over, egos ( in guys ) come out.
It's always possible to just ignore those who you see aren't listening or reading the posts carefully, or who have an agenda of self-promotion. We could try it. If you try to explain why you see something a bit differently and they can't even follow the steps and verses you took to get there (whether the two of you agree or not), then conversation isn't really possible until they learn to listen at least as much as they speak.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I appreciate folks putting their honest views across, it helps me having the opportunity to gain wisdom
I think that's the way it's supposed to work. That He gives everyone something to add to the pot and their little piece to add is another line or bit or verse that makes up the entire balance. To discuss with each other should bring us all closer to agreement in an oh, yeah, I forgot that verse in my equation kind of way.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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Before regeneration our spirits are dead because they are separated from the life of GOD. But man's spirit is not actually dead and yearns to be free from bondage to eternal death. It is written that all who learn of the father come to Christ. So it is evident that before regeneration man's spirit does hear and respond to the holy spirit, and when the time comes GOD illuminates the heart with the knowledge of Christ and a person believes with the heart into righteousness.
I honestly couldn't articulate the chronological order of salvation. I can't remember what the sequence of events were leading to trusting in the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins. Even as a saved person, I know that the battle against the flesh will continue until I die. Only then will I receive the glorified sinless, incorruptible body.
I know that none of us will ever have the slightest little thing to boast about, it's all by Him, for Him and for His glory. Nothing at all to do with us
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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let me add my experience this- I grew up in church, I was a " believer " in the basics. one God, heaven , hell, virgin birth, resurrection , etc... but, it did not mean anything to me. I walked away from church, believed these things, and lived however I wanted.

but, when I was 26, after my mom gently prompting me, I began to read the Bible. seriously . then I came to Christ.

so, yes, I was a " believer " , but until it became personal belief , life changing belief, it was worthless.

just wanted to add a real life experience to the conversation.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I honestly couldn't articulate the chronological order of salvation. I can't remember what the sequence of events were leading to trusting in the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins. Even as a saved person, I know that the battle against the flesh will continue until I die. Only then will I receive the glorified sinless, incorruptible body.
I know that none of us will ever have the slightest little thing to boast about, it's all by Him, for Him and for His glory. Nothing at all to do with us
I have heard you say many good things and I have watched you say those things with peaceableness, humbleness, calm and respect.
And you are doing so without a list of doctrinal talking points in front of you. You speak to engage with other men and you have no wile in you. This shouldn't be such an amazement to me. It should be the norm. But instead I am amazed when I run across a man like you. It's encouraging and gladmaking!
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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let me add my experience this- I grew up in church, I was a " believer " in the basics. one God, heaven , hell, virgin birth, resurrection , etc... but, it did not mean anything to me. I walked away from church, believed these things, and lived however I wanted.

but, when I was 26, after my mom gently prompting me, I began to read the Bible. seriously . then I came to Christ.

so, yes, I was a " believer " , but until it became personal belief , life changing belief, it was worthless.

just wanted to add a real life experience to the conversation.
Some people remember a particular moment in time when they had a miraculous awakening and powerful humbling experience, while others like yourself had a gradual conversion. So it's not like we all need to have the same experience, it's the end result that matters and not so much how long the journey took.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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I have heard you say many good things and I have watched you say those things with peaceableness, humbleness, calm and respect.
And you are doing so without a list of doctrinal talking points in front of you. You speak to engage with other men and you have no wile in you. This shouldn't be such an amazement to me. It should be the norm. But instead I am amazed when I run across a man like you. It's encouraging and gladmaking!
I'm surprised and saddened to hear you say that, I thought Christians have each others best interests at heart. I guess I'm a bit naive, but I don't take offence if someone disagrees. Everyone is on a different section of our journeys, we need to allow folks to learn and grow in their own time. We don't know how hard Gods job of sanctification is, I'm just glad it's His job and not mine
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I do believe there is something we could be said to "contribute" - not to our being drawn, called, healed of blindness, and saving - but after that. We make choices everyday to either side with the world or refuse the worlds wisdom and to side with and stand firm in faith.

We may hear some wordly wisdom and begin to sink into worry, about how we don't have a huge retirement stored up. And He catches us as we start to slip in trust and we can refuse the wordly wisdom and say: no, I am commanded not to worry about these things as the gentiles do. He knows what I have need of and He is my security, not a stockpile that could be blown away in seconds on a whim of "The Marketplace."
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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If you don't contribute anything, you won't keep what you were given. We don't contribute anything to our justification.
I believe the only thing we contribute after we are saved is obedience, and only because the Lord gave us the grace to obey so it comes back to His grace again. It doesn't matter how hard I try to add something to the finished work of Christ, it just doesn't fit. Christ finished the job completely, ours is to just receive the prize
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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LOL I am not interested in your version of calvinism, but in the truth.
If you are interested in the truth, then you should also be interested in why Five Point Calvinism is a lie.

So why don't you explain the meaning of John 3:16,17 in the light of Calvinism. How can Calvinism say that God elects some for salvation when the Bible plainly says that all men should be saved, and could be saved -- that the WORLD through Christ might be saved.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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So Yes! "Predestination" is supported, by scripture! But, alas, is Spiritually Discerned! But, as yet? Unrecognized by Sheeple!
You have not shown anything from Scripture to support this preposterous idea. Just your own rambling opinion.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I believe the only thing we contribute after we are saved is obedience, and only because the Lord gave us the grace to obey so it comes back to His grace again. It doesn't matter how hard I try to add something to the finished work of Christ, it just doesn't fit. Christ finished the job completely, ours is to just receive the prize
I agree wholeheartedly! That obedience we "contribute" is the obedience of faith, and that obedience is learned and it grows.
We learn the obedience of faith (trust) by the things we suffer and experience and the situations and circumstances He places us in.