The doctrine of election and reprobation

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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#62
Jan 6, 2018
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#62
Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't agree. I think "that" refers back to the total verse. We can't boast of our saving in any way. We can't take credit for the kindness OR the faith. We can't take credit for being the author or finisher in any way, shape or fashion.
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Read Robertson on ep 2:8. He is a Greek grammarian:

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#63
Jun 13, 2018
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#63
NayborBear said:
Ahhh! But, it is! But, for whatever reason? Either in Calvin's interpretation of predestination, or, traditions of men, watering down predestination, or, the combination, of (how can I say) "Sheeples" not wanting to accept (a) predestination aspect of How/What our Heavenly Father does, in His going about His business, or, in (a) Sheeples mindset of "Because predestination is not good enough, us?" It's not good enough for anybody!" Never ever realizing that they are the one's that our Father has Given His Only Begotten! And, that is well enough! Seems, there are 2 kinds of "election!" The elect of Christ, and, the elect, of the Father! Might even call the elect of the Father, (the) Very Elect! Tis the very elect, being of "The Remnant" That are/were "predestined" form the foundations of the earth (heaven too). Our Heavenly Father in His Eternal wisdom, seen fit, and according to His Good Pleasure, in "sprinkling" (if you will), during this earth age "His" remnant, from every generation, since Adam!

So? Is this to say that those given unto the Son, cannot be "rewarded" with very elect status? GOD Forbid! This should be our "life's mission" in these flesh bodies, having invested our "talents", to be given even more!
Even now, their are "predestined remnant" walking around this earth (and heaven too). All who are, are even aware of God's "protective bubble", if you will, and even seen, in most cases, by those who have been given in Christ's Hands, as enemies!

So Yes! "Predestination" is supported, by scripture! But, alas, is Spiritually Discerned! But, as yet? Unrecognized by Sheeple!
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That was a very deep summary, it sounds good on the surface but I'll have to come back to it and go over it with a fine tooth comb
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#65
Jun 13, 2018
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#65
DevotiontoBible said:
Read Robertson on ep 2:8. He is a Greek grammarian:

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.
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Talk about being thrown in at the deep end, it's great though. I have a lot to learn, the locusts have stripped me bare over the years.
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#66
Dec 6, 2015
2,626
774
113
A deplorable! (so you know, what "state" I'm in!)
#66
7seasrekeyed said:
not much in the way of actual intelligent exchange here

just a bunch of my opinion is better than yours

Calvinism has been well argued in this forum, as well as opposing views

I am not a Calvinist nor am I Arminian; but I do get weary of Calvinists acting superior or seeming to believe those who do not hold to their view are somehow stupid or vapid
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Human "frailties", oft times, misconstrued as "acting superior", or thinking some people are "stupid" or "vapid (whatever that word means)", comes from a constant frustration of like trying to herd "kittens!" :)
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#67
Jun 13, 2018
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#67
DevotiontoBible said:
Of course it isn't because as a Calvinist you think you have new life without faith.
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Sir, with all due respect I was given faith at the point of my conversion. It came to me as a gift, just as Paul received it. I can't say I knew what I was looking for, I was lost and I had no idea what to expect. All I know is I was blind and now I see
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#68
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#68
DevotiontoBible said:
Read Robertson on ep 2:8. He is a Greek grammarian:

For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.
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:poop:
No man has sowed the seed in himself. How then can he claim credit for the faith?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#69
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#69
MarkWilliams said:
Sir, with all due respect I was given faith at the point of my conversion. It came to me as a gift, just as Paul received it. I can't say I knew what I was looking for, I was lost and I had no idea what to expect. All I know is I was blind and now I see
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We want to always take some of the credit, some of the glory. Just sneak a little for ourselves. That is just how we are.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#70
Jun 13, 2018
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#70
NayborBear said:
Human "frailties", oft times, misconstrued as "acting superior", or thinking some people are "stupid" or "vapid (whatever that word means)", comes from a constant frustration of like trying to herd "kittens!" :)
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I hear you, and it sounds like you're carrying a bit of a burden. I'm sure your a patient and mature Christian who tolerates more than your fair share, but let me encourage you to continue your good work
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#71
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
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#71
MarkWilliams said:
Sir, with all due respect I was given faith at the point of my conversion. It came to me as a gift, just as Paul received it. I can't say I knew what I was looking for, I was lost and I had no idea what to expect. All I know is I was blind and now I see
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With all due respect, you need to hold the Bible over Calvinism. Your new birth is a result of your faith in Christ. Your faith in Christ is not a result of your new birth.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#73
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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#73
DevotiontoBible said:
With all due respect, you need to hold the Bible over Calvinism. Your new birth is a result of your faith in Christ. Your faith in Christ is not a result of your new birth.
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Whatever the motivation was, I dropped to my knees and asked Jesus to save me from my sins. God obviously gave me the faith to ask Him so I still say it was all His work, He drew me to Himself.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#74
#74
MarkWilliams said:
Sir, with all due respect I was given faith at the point of my conversion. It came to me as a gift, just as Paul received it. I can't say I knew what I was looking for, I was lost and I had no idea what to expect. All I know is I was blind and now I see
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The BDF is doing its usual work I see,arguing. smh Brother please be careful of what doctrine you accept. This has been a well argued subject here and gets very ugly very fast. No,not you Ugly.:) Study the word for yourself. Do not simply take anything for granted.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#76
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#76
Stunnedbygrace said:
:poop:
No man has sowed the seed in himself. How then can he claim credit for the faith?
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Nobody claims credit that is why faith is contrasted to works in the Bible. Believing in Christ's works is nothing to boast in. You have a messed up Calvinist idea about faith.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#77
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#77
DevotiontoBible said:
It isn't taking credit to trust. That is a messed up Calvinist idea.
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I think it IS taking credit.
I would never have had, and continue to have, the opportunity to trust and to continue to trust, unless He had restored my ability to see and hear, then been pleased to show me His Son, then sowed that small seed, then watered it, then grown it. And all the while protecting me from many pitfalls and dangers that would have choked out that small seed He planted in me.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#78
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#78
kaylagrl said:
The BDF is doing its usual work I see,arguing. smh Brother please be careful of what doctrine you accept. This has been a well argued subject here and gets very ugly very fast. No,not you Ugly.:) Study the word for yourself. Do not simply take anything for granted.
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I want to learn as quickly as I can, the locusts have eaten up the best years of my life. I'm trying to claim some back
 
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gb9

Senior Member
#79
Jan 18, 2011
11,707
6,307
113
#79
kaylagrl said:
The BDF is doing its usual work I see,arguing. smh Brother please be careful of what doctrine you accept. This has been a well argued subject here and gets very ugly very fast. No,not you Ugly.:) Study the word for yourself. Do not simply take anything for granted.
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yep, same thing. mostly us guys throwing our egos around.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#80
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#80
Well let's not throw our egos around then. Let's walk well with each other while we try to understand how each of us sees and processes what we read. :)
 
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