The doctrine of election and reprobation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
  • June 2022 Fundraiser!
    Guest if you appreciate Christian Chat can you please participate in our June 2022 Fundraiser (CLICK HERE) if you're able (all amounts appreciated!). We are totally member supported doing this by faith Your support is very helpful, very needed, and very much appreciated. Thank you!
    ~ Donate now ~
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
Yes I believe once TRULY saved always saved, but how can we know if we are truly saved. That's the worry I have
You can't be sure because your Calvinist Bible changes Hab 2:4 into "the just shall live by predestination"
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
821
113
I didn't get from what mark has said, that he doubts his salvation. I rather got that he was saying he couldn't be sure of someone elses salvation. I could be wrong but that's what I got.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
So I take it we all agree that we didn't contribute anything to our salvation.
Mark virtually everyone will agree on that statement but where it gets confused is when people say you still have to do something whether it’s the sinners pray or even a alter call. I will also tell you this that even the reformers do this to a degree they will say you have to put your faith in God and trust in God and or surrender your life to God and yet they will turn right around and say you can’t do nothing; Because you are typified as a dead corpse.
 
Dec 9, 2017
124
20
18
I believe this may be at least one of the scriptures that Peter was referring to when he said Paul said some things that are hard to understand. It indeed takes a very mature believer to figure out but know this, if what you believe about Romans 9 paints a very bad picture of God, you have it wrong.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
18,590
5,522
113
That's a very good point, I'm sure we all struggle with worldly worries and concerns and they can easily swallow us up if we don't follow Jesus closely.
We must put on the whole Armour of God every morning and take our sword, because we go into a life or death battle every day. Don't forget, we can lose our salvation if we don't preserver to the end. We must finish this race and he who endures to the end will be saved. I know this doesn't sound like Calvinism, but it is describing true believers. Those who don't make it to the end were never truly saved from the beginning.
So trust in the Lord with everything you have, give Him 100% of your heart, mind, soul and strength. If you hold back anything, you will suffer chastisement and none of us like that.

But the Bible does not teach this. Scripture says we can walk away from God's gift,we can turn away.

2 Pet. 17 -Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

James 5 - My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Col. 1:23-But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

1Cor.9-27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Luke 9-And Jesus said unto him, “No man, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God.”
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Sorry for my ignorance, but I thought taking credit was an Armenian thing and not Calvinist

no one is taking credit. that's nonsense

also, no one was a rotting stinking corpse (I know you didn't say that)

it would be true to say the heart is desperately wicked because the Bible says that

we were in sin...but if we were actually dead, it would mean we died in sin

it is important to understand what scripture actually states

God does not force people and those who understand that, do not think we take some kind of credit

again, that is nonsense
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,970
113
MATT. 24:22.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened.

MATT 24:31.
And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

LUKE 18:7.
And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?

ROMANS 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

11:5.
Even so then at this present time also there is a 'remnant' according to the election of Grace.

1PETER 1:2.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God The Father, through sanctification of The Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

11PETER 1:10.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things,
ye shall never fall:

11JOHN 1:13.
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
I didn't get from what mark has said, that he doubts his salvation. I rather got that he was saying he couldn't be sure of someone elses salvation. I could be wrong but that's what I got.
I was referring to those who Jesus described on the last day, that came to Him saying Lord, Lord thinking they were saved only to find that they have been fooling themselves all along. We are also told to renew our commitment every day, by repenting of our sins and putting on the whole Armour of God. Only those who remain faithful to the end will be saved, so we don't know who will make it. Only God knows, we would probably be shocked if we knew who they were because none of the Disciples had a clue who the unbeliever was until Jesus told them that it was Judas. There may be people in our Church who look look like model Christians but they may not be saved.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
no one is taking credit. that's nonsense

also, no one was a rotting stinking corpse (I know you didn't say that)

it would be true to say the heart is desperately wicked because the Bible says that

we were in sin...but if we were actually dead, it would mean we died in sin

it is important to understand what scripture actually states

God does not force people and those who understand that, do not think we take some kind of credit

again, that is nonsense
I still think there's a component of mystery around this question. There are some things we just can't know for sure and only God knows them and I believe this is one of them
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
But the Bible does not teach this. Scripture says we can walk away from God's gift,we can turn away.

2 Pet. 17 -Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

James 5 - My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Col. 1:23-But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

1Cor.9-27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Luke 9-And Jesus said unto him, “No man, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God.”
Great verses, but there are many others which say that one cannot lose his salvation. Only God knows who will and who won't, we may be sure of our own but we can never be sure of others. If we clearly see the fruits of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, then we can conclude that we are on the narrow path that leads to eternal life.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
I would like to know how the majority of Christians deal with this doctrine.

The Bible makes it clear that God has written the names of His elect in the book of life, before He laid the foundations of the earth. The Bible is also clear that the reprobate cannot be saved. I have found this particular doctrine hard to understand, so I would appreciate your views on this subject.
I guess I will have a different take on the "reprobates" you are speaking of... It is as simple as this:

For those that turn away from GOD in this lifetime, "reprobates";

God has made it very clear, they will not be able to turn to Him in the eternity to come.

In fact, He created a special place for those who wanted nothing to do with him in their lifetime on this earth (reprobates). It is called the "Lake of FIRE"

I do not see why you are having a problem with this 'doctrine' as you put it? Do you really expect GOD to give them 'One Last Chance' when they have already had a lifetime of chances?

Have a good day.

Blade
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
I was referring to those who Jesus described on the last day, that came to Him saying Lord, Lord thinking they were saved only to find that they have been fooling themselves all along. We are also told to renew our commitment every day, by repenting of our sins and putting on the whole Armour of God. Only those who remain faithful to the end will be saved, so we don't know who will make it. Only God knows, we would probably be shocked if we knew who they were because none of the Disciples had a clue who the unbeliever was until Jesus told them that it was Judas. There may be people in our Church who look look like model Christians but they may not be saved.
I believe we can be quite certain in our salvation.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Of course, a person must actually DO that (^^^). But once he does:

1 John 3:
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom 5:
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus ..

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
I believe we can be quite certain in our salvation.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Of course, a person must actually DO that (^^^). But once he does:

1 John 3:
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rom 5:
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:
1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus ..

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
I take comfort in all the promises, but the accuser still continues to put doubt into my mind. I need to keep praying and reading Scripture to keep my spirit in the faith. The flesh also accuses and casts doubt, so I have to continually renew my mind and follow Christ closely.
It's a daily struggle against the flesh and the enemy, they never rest so we can never turn our back on them
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
Great verses, but there are many others which say that one cannot lose his salvation. Only God knows who will and who won't, we may be sure of our own but we can never be sure of others. If we clearly see the fruits of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, then we can conclude that we are on the narrow path that leads to eternal life.
In Rom 8: 29-31, Jesus tells us about the foreknowledge that God knew about us. He also tells us that those who HE foresaw (those who would prior to their death (my belief)would love and believe in HIM), He predestined, etc. etc. etc.

In John 10:29..
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

A reference to those that are predestined will not be lost.

Those that are lost "reprobates", those are the ones who with their FREE-WILL has decided to Blaspheme or worse all three of the Trinity. Over and over again, their disdain is well known even unto death. Of course after death, there is no 2nd chance.

Blade
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
53
48
I take comfort in all the promises, but the accuser still continues to put doubt into my mind. I need to keep praying and reading Scripture to keep my spirit in the faith. The flesh also accuses and casts doubt, so I have to continually renew my mind and follow Christ closely.
It's a daily struggle against the flesh and the enemy, they never rest so we can never turn our back on them
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
I guess I will have a different take on the "reprobates" you are speaking of... It is as simple as this:

For those that turn away from GOD in this lifetime, "reprobates";

God has made it very clear, they will not be able to turn to Him in the eternity to come.

In fact, He created a special place for those who wanted nothing to do with him in their lifetime on this earth (reprobates). It is called the "Lake of FIRE"

I do not see why you are having a problem with this 'doctrine' as you put it? Do you really expect GOD to give them 'One Last Chance' when they have already had a lifetime of chances?

Have a good day.

Blade
Hi Blade, thanks for that. The point of contention was, how to answer a person who asks why God created people who would have no chance of salvation.
They were, strictly speaking created to be cast into ever lasting punishment and they never stood a chance of salvation. They never had the option to repent and have their sins forgiven, I need to know how to answer that accurately and Biblicaly
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
In Rom 8: 29-31, Jesus tells us about the foreknowledge that God knew about us. He also tells us that those who HE foresaw (those who would prior to their death (my belief)would love and believe in HIM), He predestined, etc. etc. etc.

In John 10:29.."My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

A reference to those that are predestined will not be lost.

Those that are lost "reprobates", those are the ones who with their FREE-WILL has decided to Blaspheme or worse all three of the Trinity. Over and over again, their disdain is well known even unto death. Of course after death, there is no 2nd chance.

Blade
So would you agree that only God knows who the reprobate are, and who the elect are and there's no way for us mortals to know for sure
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
In Rom 8: 29-31, Jesus tells us about the foreknowledge that God knew about us. He also tells us that those who HE foresaw (those who would prior to their death (my belief)would love and believe in HIM), He predestined, etc. etc. etc.

In John 10:29.."My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

A reference to those that are predestined will not be lost.

Those that are lost "reprobates", those are the ones who with their FREE-WILL has decided to Blaspheme or worse all three of the Trinity. Over and over again, their disdain is well known even unto death. Of course after death, there is no 2nd chance.

Blade
Nobody is predestined for salvation. Once they hear the gospel, anyone can freely choose to believe it. That's the reason we are to share the gospel, to give people the chance to hear, to give them the opportunity to believe.

Christianity was predestined, not individual Christians. The Father gives to Jesus all those who choose to believe.