The Error of KJV-Onlyism

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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The preservation which is for ever is not to the people why, v.1 say even the godly cease, the faithful fail. Whan then? Only the words of God is preserved for ever. Isaiah 40:8 ...the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Okay, but the passage isn't about scripture. The words.. may be scripture..but it's not what the passage is about.

Preservation of scripture through all generations I agree with.. but that being thru the mountains of manuscript copies..not one particular translation.

Even the KJV translators themselves allowed what they wrote to be modified. And the 1611 included the apocrypha.

I only read the KJV.. and it may be the best translation in English..but I don't agree with it being perfectly preserved.
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
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Okay, but the passage isn't about scripture. The words.. may be scripture..but it's not what the passage is about.

Preservation of scripture through all generations I agree with.. but that being thru the mountains of manuscript copies..not one particular translation.

Even the KJV translators themselves allowed what they wrote to be modified. And the 1611 included the apocrypha.

I only read the KJV.. and it may be the best translation in English..but I don't agree with it being perfectly preserved.
Isaiah 34:16 says,

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read..."​

Brandon Peterson created a video connecting the dots in Scripture in how the "book of the LORD" is about the completed Bible.

I know that might sound crazy to you. But it is true.

So let's take a look at it.

In verse 1 of Isaiah 34, we see that God's Word is calling all you nations, the earth, all who are in the world.




Looking at Isaiah 34:4, we can see that it parallels Revelation 6:13-14.

#1. Isaiah 34:4 which says, the host of heaven shall be dissolved,... all their host shall fall down ---- contrasts with:​
Revelation 6:13 which says, the stars of heaven fell unto the earth.​
#2. Isaiah 34:4 which says, the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll ----- contrasts with:​
Revelation 6:14 which says, the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together.​
#3. Isaiah 34:4 which says, as a falling fig from the fig tree ---- contrasts with:​
Revelation 6:13 which says, even as a fig tree casters her untimely figs.​



Isaiah 34:10 matches up with Revelation 19:3.

Isaiah 34:10 which says, the smoke thereof shall go up for ever ----- contrasts with:
Revelation 19:3 which says, hersmoke rose up for ever and ever.




Isaiah 34:13-15 lines up with Revelation 18:2, and the unclean birds (fowl) in Leviticus 11:13-17.



Really, the video is a thousand times more informative.

 

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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fredoheaven said:
Isaiah 40:8
Okay, but the passage isn't about scripture. The words.. may be scripture..but it's not what the passage is about.
Peter references this in 1 Peter 1:23

1 Peter 1:23-25

23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.​
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:​
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."​
This is about the Communicated Word of God. It's how the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 2:2 says,

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"​
As we can see here, the context continues and talks about how are to desire the sincere milk of the Word so that we may grow thereby (Which again is the Communicated Word of God --- either the spoken Word of God or the written Word during the time of the early church).

You said:
Preservation of scripture through all generations I agree with.. but that being thru the mountains of manuscript copies..not one particular translation.
Nobody has access to these manuscript copies.
Even if they did, it take a lifetime to figure out what they said seeing these copies are in dead languages.
Plus, which Greek manuscripts? Not all of them say the same thing. Most folks here have a hard time trying to tell the difference between the KJB and Modern Bibles in English and you want them to figure it out in Koine Greek? Not possible.

Oh, and the Bible talks about many translations that are contained within its own pages.
The Bible also teaches that copies are preserved and not the original manuscripts, too.

In addition, the Bible never talks prophetically about how we are to look to a bunch of fragments and keep searching for decades trying to figure out with no end in sight.

You said:
Even the KJV translators themselves allowed what they wrote to be modified. And the 1611 included the apocrypha.
I believe Psalms 12:6-7 is prophetic in talking about the 7 Major KJB editions.
Biblical numerics even confirms this, as well. Meaning, certain numerical patterns in the Bible appear to fall into place with the later KJB editions (like the Authorized Version of 1769, and or the Pure Cambridge 1900).

I believe the removal of the Apocrypha in the 1769 in 1885 is the 6th purification of God’s Word.

You said:
I only read the KJV.. and it may be the best translation in English..but I don't agree with it being perfectly preserved.
But it is perfect. If it isn't, then how can you trust which words are true or false if you don't have a perfect Bible?
Remember, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.
Jesus talked about jots and tittles and this obviously means Jesus cares about the details of His Word.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I was re-reading the chapter several times again. The context says this:

5 “For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” (Psalms 12:5-7).

Notice. The Lord is speaking in red in verse 5.

Verse 5 is made up of words from the LORD.

Verse 6 in context is referring to these words in verse 5.

Naturally, all of God’s words are pure.

But King David is boasting in these particular words of God in verse 5 as being so pure that it is as if they have been purified seven times in a furnace.
Um, no. There is nothing whatsoever in the text to suggest that God is emphasizing 'these particular words'. ALL of God's words are pure.

David is saying how God will keep these words in verse 5.
Again, no. God is saying He will keep the poor and needy. He has no need to "preserve" His words, because His words stand unassailable. It's ridiculous that the KJV-only crowd argues incessantly that God has preserved His words AND that they have been corrupted.

I know we don’t want the Textual Critic to have any advantage, but we also cannot sacrifice the truth of the context in the process, either.
Your battle with this anonymous "Textual Critic" is rising to the level of unhealthy obsession. Get a life.
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
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Um, no. There is nothing whatsoever in the text to suggest that God is emphasizing 'these particular words'. ALL of God's words are pure.
Verse 6 can be in reference as a lesson of how all of God’s words are pure. However, while all of God’s words are pure, the words of the LORD just spoken (verse 5) would be the immediate context of God’s words being pure as a reference. It would be the example given because God moves to protect the poor and needy as per His pure words (verse 6).

You said:
Again, no. God is saying He will keep the poor and needy. He has no need to "preserve" His words,
If preservation was not in view here, then we would not even know about these words from the time David wrote this.
Obviously we are reading the words of God’s promise here on His keeping the poor and needy in Psalms 12 and therefore preservation of God’s words on this promise are in view. If not, then you would not know about these words from God.

You said:
because His words stand unassailable. It's ridiculous that the KJV-only crowd argues incessantly that God has preserved His words AND that they have been corrupted.
You are getting tripped up over words. Even Paul said “For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 2:17). Yet, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35).

For example: Let’s say an artist created two identical copies of his first masterpiece painting that sold for millions each. Meaning, there would be three identical paintings by the same artist that are genuine. However, one day, the first original was burned up in a fire. Yet, the two copies of his first paintings He made still exist. These two remaining masterpieces are identical in appearance to the naked eye. Yet, the second extant copy or work of the artist that looks identical to the first is stolen and replaced with subtle changes by another artist. So in this case, you have both an untouched first copy that is original from the artist, and you have a second copy (which is original from the artist) that has been corrupted. For this other artist took the second copy and made by the same original artist and he corrupted it. In this sense, you can have both the original copy untouched, and another copy of that original corrupted.

So there is no contradiction.
But I am guessing you are just going to hit that “disagree button.”

You said:
Your battle with this anonymous "Textual Critic" is rising to the level of unhealthy obsession. Get a life.
Well, if Modern Scholarship is condemned in the Bible (Which I believe it is), then it is something we must preach against as a part of our faith in obedience to God’s Word. Exposing the truth by the light of God’s Word is healthy and good - IMHO.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Verse 6 can be in reference as a lesson of how all of God’s words are pure. However, while all of God’s words are pure, the words of the LORD just spoken (verse 5) would be the immediate context of God’s words being pure as a reference. It would be the example given because God moves to protect the poor and needy as per His pure words (verse 6).
Or, 88 syllables to say what could have been said in ten, and would still be irrelevant.

If preservation was not in view here, then we would not even know about these words from the time David wrote this.
Wrong. There are other passages that address God's preservation of His word through time.

You are getting tripped up over words.
Not even a little.

Well, if Modern Scholarship is condemned in the Bible (Which I believe it is), then it is something we must preach against as a part of our faith in obedience to God’s Word.
You can believe what you like, but that doesn't mean it's true. Modern scholarship is not condemned in Scripture... and I'm curious which verses or passages you think say that it is.

Exposing the truth by the light of God’s Word is healthy and good - IMHO.
We don't "expose" truth; we know the truth because we have it in God's word.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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Well textual criticism has the flaw of saying like 'this accurately represents what this community believes about the person of Jesus '.

Rather than.. Jesus actually spoke to them as it says.

It goes too much of a step back to make things relative.
 

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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Well textual criticism has the flaw of saying like 'this accurately represents what this community believes about the person of Jesus '.

Rather than.. Jesus actually spoke to them as it says.

It goes too much of a step back to make things relative.
Here is the problem with the Science of Textual Criticism:

The textual critic approaches the Bible as he would any other literary work of antiquity in which the original autographs are no longer available. The premise is that since the original copies have long since perished and that which has survived consists of questionable, conflicting copies, it is, therefore, impossible to have a pure Bible.

Textual criticism is then the science by which biblical scholars seek to restore or reconstruct the indefinite (lost) text of the Bible as close as possible to its original form by a detailed analysis of the various manuscripts. The standard criterion of reliability is age, assuming the older the manuscript, the closer it must be to the original. Unfortunately, this approach fails to consider that most Bible corruption took place in the first few centuries (2 Cor.2:17, 2 Peter 3:16).

As with any branch of academia, there are different schools of thought among textual critics. Disagreements abound and take many forms. Each group of scholars defends its own set of criteria and presuppositions for evaluating the superiority of one text type over another (textual disputes) or one family of manuscripts over another.

Then, there are translation disputes and disagreements over how to understand and translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts (original languages of the Bible) into English. For example, the Greek word “logismos,” found in 2 Corinthians 10:5, can mean reasoning, imagination, or thought. According to Greek, any one of these three definitions would be correct. The question then arises: how do we determine the precise word (meaning) that the Holy Spirit initially intended? Who gets to make the determination, and on what basis, by what authority?

When you consider all the complexities and variables of textual criticism, not to mention the differences between the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English languages, it should be apparent that without supernatural intervention, it would be impossible to reconstruct the original text of the Scriptures, even if it had been lost. In reality, textual criticism is no more than theoretical guesswork, an academic exercise in futility and unbelief. The Bible sums up the science of textual criticism in 2 Tim.3:7: “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

False doctrine originates with the acceptance of a false premise; deception is born out of failure to recognize truth, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die… (Gen.3:4). The beginning of the end came when Satan interjected a false thought into Eve’s mind. A bold lie that sounded logical, even though it was contrary to what God had said, but tragically, Eve accepted it. Why was Eve so easily deceived?

It has been wisely stated that the heart of every problem is a problem in the heart. Eve was beguiled because she questioned what God had said. So then, so now, And the serpent said unto the “biblical scholar,” God hath not preserved His Word. The clever lie that God’s words perished, along with the papyri or vellum on which they were written initially, has been broadly propagated and widely accepted, even though it is contrary to what God has said. Papyri and vellum are physical, material, and temporal. God’s Word is spiritual (John 6:63) and eternal (1 Peter 1:21). The students of the school of modern textual criticism have little, if any, faith in God’s ability to preserve His own words. In effect, their position accuses God of negligence.

The false doctrine of non-preservation is a doctrine that lacks any basis in the Word of God other than “Yea, hath God said…” (Gen.3:1). It is, in fact, nothing more than a theory constructed upon a flawed foundation that assumes inspiration was limited to the original autographs. A method strikingly similar to “Darwin’s theory of evolution” also founded on a lie. Textual criticism and evolution are similar in that both utilize man’s wisdom to refute God’s Word; both replace certainty with uncertainty. The common goal is the destruction of absolutes (one of the primary objectives of secular humanism).

Absolute truth is the foundation of morality that holds man accountable; therefore, his fallen nature dictates that he challenge, resist, and deny it, especially where it applies to his conduct. In a sense, evolution got rid of God, and textual criticism got rid of His words. The so-called “scholars” begin with absolute inerrancy (the original lost autographs) and end up with relative inerrancy (hundreds of “relatively pure” albeit conflicting versions of the Bible).

The crux of textual criticism concerning the Bible isn’t restoring lost truth; the real issue is the final authority. The whole process lacks any Scriptural justification and is inconsistent with the nature of God. How can we explain the Sovereignty of a God who relies on the mind of fallen man to discern, decide, and declare what is and isn’t true? The truth of God’s Word needs to be resurrected by man’s wisdom, which lacks underlying support within the Bible. When we examine the Scriptures, we find just the opposite. Jesus Himself stated, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matt. 24:35). That God’s words would be lost is contrary to His nature as revealed in Scripture; if God is pure, perfect, holy, and eternal (and He is), then it stands to reason, so must His Word be. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Heb .13:8).

Textual critics have accomplished much if uncertainty is better than certainty, if confusion is more desirable than clarity, and if impurity is superior to purity. As a direct result of the modern school of textual criticism, we have more than two hundred different versions of the Bible today, all of which disagree in one form or another (to satisfy copyright laws, among other things). As a result, Bible publishing has become a lucrative enterprise.

The resulting confusion within the Body of Christ is yet another confirmation that the whole process is not from God ” For God is not the author of confusion…” (1 Cor. 14:33). In reality, the science of modern textual criticism has proven to be a “Pandora’s box,” a contemporary form of “Yea, hath God said…” resulting in continuous controversy and significant divisions within the Body of Christ. “As if it weren’t enough for proud men to doubt God’s Holy Word, in their folly, they imagine they could somehow resurrect it!” Humility is hardly the hallmark of supposed higher learning.


Article Source:
https://www.perfectingofthesaints.com/articles/articles-why-i-believe-the-king-james-bible-is-the-pure-word-of-god
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
1,148
113
New Zealand
Here is the problem with the Science of Textual Criticism:

The textual critic approaches the Bible as he would any other literary work of antiquity in which the original autographs are no longer available. The premise is that since the original copies have long since perished and that which has survived consists of questionable, conflicting copies, it is, therefore, impossible to have a pure Bible.

Textual criticism is then the science by which biblical scholars seek to restore or reconstruct the indefinite (lost) text of the Bible as close as possible to its original form by a detailed analysis of the various manuscripts. The standard criterion of reliability is age, assuming the older the manuscript, the closer it must be to the original. Unfortunately, this approach fails to consider that most Bible corruption took place in the first few centuries (2 Cor.2:17, 2 Peter 3:16).

As with any branch of academia, there are different schools of thought among textual critics. Disagreements abound and take many forms. Each group of scholars defends its own set of criteria and presuppositions for evaluating the superiority of one text type over another (textual disputes) or one family of manuscripts over another.

Then, there are translation disputes and disagreements over how to understand and translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts (original languages of the Bible) into English. For example, the Greek word “logismos,” found in 2 Corinthians 10:5, can mean reasoning, imagination, or thought. According to Greek, any one of these three definitions would be correct. The question then arises: how do we determine the precise word (meaning) that the Holy Spirit initially intended? Who gets to make the determination, and on what basis, by what authority?

When you consider all the complexities and variables of textual criticism, not to mention the differences between the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English languages, it should be apparent that without supernatural intervention, it would be impossible to reconstruct the original text of the Scriptures, even if it had been lost. In reality, textual criticism is no more than theoretical guesswork, an academic exercise in futility and unbelief. The Bible sums up the science of textual criticism in 2 Tim.3:7: “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

False doctrine originates with the acceptance of a false premise; deception is born out of failure to recognize truth, “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die… (Gen.3:4). The beginning of the end came when Satan interjected a false thought into Eve’s mind. A bold lie that sounded logical, even though it was contrary to what God had said, but tragically, Eve accepted it. Why was Eve so easily deceived?

It has been wisely stated that the heart of every problem is a problem in the heart. Eve was beguiled because she questioned what God had said. So then, so now, And the serpent said unto the “biblical scholar,” God hath not preserved His Word. The clever lie that God’s words perished, along with the papyri or vellum on which they were written initially, has been broadly propagated and widely accepted, even though it is contrary to what God has said. Papyri and vellum are physical, material, and temporal. God’s Word is spiritual (John 6:63) and eternal (1 Peter 1:21). The students of the school of modern textual criticism have little, if any, faith in God’s ability to preserve His own words. In effect, their position accuses God of negligence.

The false doctrine of non-preservation is a doctrine that lacks any basis in the Word of God other than “Yea, hath God said…” (Gen.3:1). It is, in fact, nothing more than a theory constructed upon a flawed foundation that assumes inspiration was limited to the original autographs. A method strikingly similar to “Darwin’s theory of evolution” also founded on a lie. Textual criticism and evolution are similar in that both utilize man’s wisdom to refute God’s Word; both replace certainty with uncertainty. The common goal is the destruction of absolutes (one of the primary objectives of secular humanism).

Absolute truth is the foundation of morality that holds man accountable; therefore, his fallen nature dictates that he challenge, resist, and deny it, especially where it applies to his conduct. In a sense, evolution got rid of God, and textual criticism got rid of His words. The so-called “scholars” begin with absolute inerrancy (the original lost autographs) and end up with relative inerrancy (hundreds of “relatively pure” albeit conflicting versions of the Bible).

The crux of textual criticism concerning the Bible isn’t restoring lost truth; the real issue is the final authority. The whole process lacks any Scriptural justification and is inconsistent with the nature of God. How can we explain the Sovereignty of a God who relies on the mind of fallen man to discern, decide, and declare what is and isn’t true? The truth of God’s Word needs to be resurrected by man’s wisdom, which lacks underlying support within the Bible. When we examine the Scriptures, we find just the opposite. Jesus Himself stated, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matt. 24:35). That God’s words would be lost is contrary to His nature as revealed in Scripture; if God is pure, perfect, holy, and eternal (and He is), then it stands to reason, so must His Word be. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Heb .13:8).

Textual critics have accomplished much if uncertainty is better than certainty, if confusion is more desirable than clarity, and if impurity is superior to purity. As a direct result of the modern school of textual criticism, we have more than two hundred different versions of the Bible today, all of which disagree in one form or another (to satisfy copyright laws, among other things). As a result, Bible publishing has become a lucrative enterprise.

The resulting confusion within the Body of Christ is yet another confirmation that the whole process is not from God ” For God is not the author of confusion…” (1 Cor. 14:33). In reality, the science of modern textual criticism has proven to be a “Pandora’s box,” a contemporary form of “Yea, hath God said…” resulting in continuous controversy and significant divisions within the Body of Christ. “As if it weren’t enough for proud men to doubt God’s Holy Word, in their folly, they imagine they could somehow resurrect it!” Humility is hardly the hallmark of supposed higher learning.


Article Source:
https://www.perfectingofthesaints.com/articles/articles-why-i-believe-the-king-james-bible-is-the-pure-word-of-god
The preservation I thought would be in the originals autographs.. that has been preserved through the mountains of copies. Then the KJV and other reputable translations that have preserved it. I don't get why it has to be the KJV only. I will have a read of some the links you have posted though to get more of an idea. Like I say.. I use only the KJV.. but I'd be happy to use a concordance and other translations to really go in depth.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
I don't get why it has to be the KJV only.
Just read the misleading prefaces of the modern bible versions. They will try to fool you into thinking that they are translating from "the oldest" and "the best" manuscripts. Which is a complete lie. The oldest are IN FACT the most corrupt.

FROM THE PREFACE OF THE 1972 NASB
Greek Text: In revising the ASV, consideration was given to the latest available manuscripts with a view to determining the best Greek text. In most instances the 23rd edition of the Nestle Greek New Testament was followed. And Nestle's text was merely that of Westcott & Hort. And the text of W&H was primarily based on the two MOST CORRUPT manuscripts -- Codex Vaticanus (B) and codex Sinaiticus (Aleph).

For the Old Testament they used the corrupt Biblia Hebraica edited by Rudolf Kittel:
Hebrew Text: In the present translation the latest edition of Rudolph Kittel’s BIBLIA HEBRAICA has been employed together with the most recent light from lexicography, cognate languages, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

WHO WERE BEHIND THE CORRUPTION?
Brook Foss Westcott
(1825-1901) and John Anthony Hort (1828-1892), described the KJB as ‘vile’ and ‘villainous,’ seeking to re-write God’s Holy Word in their own image. These men also exhibited a keen interest in occult spirit-ism. Heck, these scoundrels weren’t even saved! These so called, ‘scholars’ sought the counsel of seducing spirits by forging occultic groups, such as the Hermes Club (1845), the Ghostly Guild (1851) and the Apostles (1851). They believed the scriptures were fallible, kept Roman Catholic sacraments and venerated the Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix.
https://carljosephministries.com/which-bible-should-i-read/?

The key point is that all modern versions since 1881 continue to depend on the critical Greek text of Westcott & Hort. For 1 Timothy 3:16 here is what they have:

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] [Nestle-Aland variants]
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ

But the Received Text has "God" (Theos), which is supported by almost all Greek manuscripts.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ
Theos is also found in the RP Byzantine Majority Text (2005) and The Greek Orthodox Church Text (1904).

So if you read the King James Bible this is what you will see:
King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

But if you read the NASB, this is what you will see:
New American Standard Bible
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. [Note: there is a huge difference between "And without controversy" and "By common confession"]

But Ὃς (Hos) is not "He who". It is simply "who". So now doctrinally "who" could even mean an angel, since it does not specifically say "God". Do you see the doctrinal impact? Was it GOD who took human form to become Jesus of Nazareth? Then why is "God" absent from all the modern versions? And this is just one of hundreds of such changes in modern versions which affect the "doctrine of Christ". The antichrists denied that Jesus Christ had "come in the flesh", and this change supports the antichrists mentioned by the apostle John.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.(1 John 4:2,3)
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
2,086
339
83
The preservation I thought would be in the originals autographs.. that has been preserved through the mountains of copies. Then the KJV and other reputable translations that have preserved it. I don't get why it has to be the KJV only. I will have a read of some the links you have posted though to get more of an idea. Like I say.. I use only the KJV.. but I'd be happy to use a concordance and other translations to really go in depth.
There are two lines of manuscripts in primary use today involving the Bible.

Bible Manuscripts Line #1.

The Textus Receptus (NT Greek) line of manuscripts (Erasmus) leads to the King James Bible.​
This was the line that was persecuted by the Catholic Church. William Tyndale and John Rogers who were both Textus Receptus Bible translations were martyred by Catholics. Even the King James Bible, King James, and their translators were almost destroyed by a super bomb by Catholics (a.k.a. The gunpowder plot).​

Bible Manuscripts Line #2.

Nestle and Aland Critical Text based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts first used by Westcott and Hort with their 1881 NT Greek text (Which differs little from the Nestle and Aland). Westcott and Hort were supposed to do an update to the KJV, but they snuck in different manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus). They did not primarily follow the KJV. If you read the preface of the Revised Version (RV) which is supposed to be their English translation of their Vaticanus and Sinaiticus Greek text, you will see that they falsely claim it as "Being the version set forth A.D. 1611." Here is a screenshot of the half-page from Archive.org.​

IMG_2970.jpeg
Source:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029309717/mode/2up

While Westcott and Hort were not Catholic loyalists, we know that they favored certain Catholic practices. Westcott clearly made a statement that showed he believed in the Communion of the saints or connecting with departed spirits that have not moved on to the next realm. In fact, we can see 5 changes that favor the Catholic Church in the Revised Version. The Good News for Modern Man (now the Good News Bible) has 13 changes that favor the Catholic Church. The NIV has 14 changes that favor the Catholic Church. By 1993, we learn that the Vatican supervised the Nestle and Aland (27th edition). A Catholic cardinal Carolo Martini worked on the text. The Vaticanus comes from the Vatican Library. So if you believe the ESV, NAS95, and CSB are rebuttable Bibles, then you would be mistaken. These would be Bibles that were influenced by the Vatican. So when you read about eliminations in your Bible and it says that certain verse(s) are not in the oldest manuscripts with a footnote, they are referring to the VATICANus and Sinaiticus manuscripts.

The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other in 3000 places.
They disagree more than they agree. This is not the case for the Traditional Majority Text (5,800 manuscripts) that supports TR and the KJV. Plus, Textual Critics that create these so-called reputable Modern Bibles do not always faithfully follow the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts and they make changes that differ from even the TR or the KJV while doing so.

Nothing has been compiled of the 5,800 Greek NT manuscripts. You cannot read them. They are not all available to the public.

Most want to go with the Vaticanus that was held up in the Catholic Church who killed reformation Christians. They cannot spiritually discern the problem here. They will still see the Catholic Church as the ones who gave us the more precise words of God despite them slaughtering those silly Christians who had the less accurate texts.
 

Bible_Highlighter

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The preservation I thought would be in the originals autographs.. that has been preserved through the mountains of copies. Then the KJV and other reputable translations that have preserved it. I don't get why it has to be the KJV only. I will have a read of some the links you have posted though to get more of an idea. Like I say.. I use only the KJV.. but I'd be happy to use a concordance and other translations to really go in depth.
Some try to say that the Modern Bibles are not based on the Westcott and Hort text. Some will say this because our Modern Bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland New Testament Greek text.

But Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp believes the Nestle and Alan text is barely different than the Westcott and Hort text.

Here is a quote from Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp:

“The thing to see is that the text of 100 years ago (i.e., in 1980, the text of 1881, Hort’s compilation) is barely different from the text being published as the 28th edition of Novum Testamentum Graece. To offer up-to-date evidence of this point, I have made a fresh comparison of the 1881 compilation and the current edition of the Nestle-Aland compilation,…”​

You can find out Eldon Jay Epp’s compilation study here:

Source:
https://www.thetextofthegospels.com/2018/05/n-in-2018-and-w-h-in-1881-how-similar.html

But let's just say the Nestle and Aland are not based on the Westcott and Hort text (Which does not match the evidence we have), the Nestle and Aland text says right in the 27th edition that it was supervised by the Vatican.





So I am not sure how this helps a person defending the Modern Translations (Which was based on the Nestle and Aland supervised by Rome).

The Modern Bibles have been corrupted by Rome.

You can check out page 21 here of the 14 changes in Modern Bibles that favor the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.keithpiper.org/storage/books/NIV-Omissions-Cimatu-7July2018-pdf.pdf
 

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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There are two lines of manuscripts in primary use today involving the Bible.

Bible Manuscripts Line #1.

The Textus Receptus (NT Greek) line of manuscripts (Erasmus) leads to the King James Bible.​
This was the line that was persecuted by the Catholic Church. William Tyndale and John Rogers who were both Textus Receptus Bible translations were martyred by Catholics. Even the King James Bible, King James, and their translators were almost destroyed by a super bomb by Catholics (a.k.a. The gunpowder plot).​

Bible Manuscripts Line #2.

Nestle and Aland Critical Text based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts first used by Westcott and Hort with their 1881 NT Greek text (Which differs little from the Nestle and Aland). Westcott and Hort were supposed to do an update to the KJV, but they snuck in different manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus). They did not primarily follow the KJV. If you read the preface of the Revised Version (RV) which is supposed to be their English translation of their Vaticanus and Sinaiticus Greek text, you will see that they falsely claim it as "Being the version set forth A.D. 1611." Here is a screenshot of the half-page from Archive.org.​

View attachment 260358
Source:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029309717/mode/2up

While Westcott and Hort were not Catholic loyalists, we know that they favored certain Catholic practices. Westcott clearly made a statement that showed he believed in the Communion of the saints or connecting with departed spirits that have not moved on to the next realm. In fact, we can see 5 changes that favor the Catholic Church in the Revised Version. The Good News for Modern Man (now the Good News Bible) has 13 changes that favor the Catholic Church. The NIV has 14 changes that favor the Catholic Church. By 1993, we learn that the Vatican supervised the Nestle and Aland (27th edition). A Catholic cardinal Carolo Martini worked on the text. The Vaticanus comes from the Vatican Library. So if you believe the ESV, NAS95, and CSB are rebuttable Bibles, then you would be mistaken. These would be Bibles that were influenced by the Vatican. So when you read about eliminations in your Bible and it says that certain verse(s) are not in the oldest manuscripts with a footnote, they are referring to the VATICANus and Sinaiticus manuscripts.

The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other in 3000 places.
They disagree more than they agree. This is not the case for the Traditional Majority Text (5,800 manuscripts) that supports TR and the KJV. Plus, Textual Critics that create these so-called reputable Modern Bibles do not always faithfully follow the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts and they make changes that differ from even the TR or the KJV while doing so.

Nothing has been compiled of the 5,800 Greek NT manuscripts. You cannot read them. They are not all available to the public.

Most want to go with the Vaticanus that was held up in the Catholic Church who killed reformation Christians. They cannot spiritually discern the problem here. They will still see the Catholic Church as the ones who gave us the more precise words of God despite them slaughtering those silly Christians who had the less accurate texts.
Oy vey. Auto correct was really bad last night. I was trying to say that William Tyndale and John Rogers were both Textus Receptus Bible TRANSLATORS, and not translations.
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
2,086
339
83
There are two lines of manuscripts in primary use today involving the Bible.

Bible Manuscripts Line #1.

The Textus Receptus (NT Greek) line of manuscripts (Erasmus) leads to the King James Bible.​
This was the line that was persecuted by the Catholic Church. William Tyndale and John Rogers who were both Textus Receptus Bible translations were martyred by Catholics. Even the King James Bible, King James, and their translators were almost destroyed by a super bomb by Catholics (a.k.a. The gunpowder plot).​

Bible Manuscripts Line #2.

Nestle and Aland Critical Text based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts first used by Westcott and Hort with their 1881 NT Greek text (Which differs little from the Nestle and Aland). Westcott and Hort were supposed to do an update to the KJV, but they snuck in different manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus). They did not primarily follow the KJV. If you read the preface of the Revised Version (RV) which is supposed to be their English translation of their Vaticanus and Sinaiticus Greek text, you will see that they falsely claim it as "Being the version set forth A.D. 1611." Here is a screenshot of the half-page from Archive.org.​

View attachment 260358
Source:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029309717/mode/2up

While Westcott and Hort were not Catholic loyalists, we know that they favored certain Catholic practices. Westcott clearly made a statement that showed he believed in the Communion of the saints or connecting with departed spirits that have not moved on to the next realm. In fact, we can see 5 changes that favor the Catholic Church in the Revised Version. The Good News for Modern Man (now the Good News Bible) has 13 changes that favor the Catholic Church. The NIV has 14 changes that favor the Catholic Church. By 1993, we learn that the Vatican supervised the Nestle and Aland (27th edition). A Catholic cardinal Carolo Martini worked on the text. The Vaticanus comes from the Vatican Library. So if you believe the ESV, NAS95, and CSB are rebuttable Bibles, then you would be mistaken. These would be Bibles that were influenced by the Vatican. So when you read about eliminations in your Bible and it says that certain verse(s) are not in the oldest manuscripts with a footnote, they are referring to the VATICANus and Sinaiticus manuscripts.

The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other in 3000 places.
They disagree more than they agree. This is not the case for the Traditional Majority Text (5,800 manuscripts) that supports TR and the KJV. Plus, Textual Critics that create these so-called reputable Modern Bibles do not always faithfully follow the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts and they make changes that differ from even the TR or the KJV while doing so.

Nothing has been compiled of the 5,800 Greek NT manuscripts. You cannot read them. They are not all available to the public.

Most want to go with the Vaticanus that was held up in the Catholic Church who killed reformation Christians. They cannot spiritually discern the problem here. They will still see the Catholic Church as the ones who gave us the more precise words of God despite them slaughtering those silly Christians who had the less accurate texts.
Auto correct is at again, I was trying to say if you believe the ESV, NAS95, and CSB are REPUTABLE Bibles, and not rebuttable Bibles.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Oy vey. Auto correct was really bad last night. I was trying to say that William Tyndale and John Rogers were both Textus Receptus Bible TRANSLATORS, and not translations.
That's misleading. They worked with what they had, and as such, it's anachronistic and heavily biased to imply that they preferred the TR.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Auto correct is at again, I was trying to say if you believe the ESV, NAS95, and CSB are REPUTABLE Bibles, and not rebuttable Bibles.
Your argument is a genetic fallacy. Just because the Vaticanus was found in the Vatican library is no proof of its corruption. Similarly, the involvement of a Catholic on a modern translation committee is not proof that translation is corrupt. Reason to investigate? Sure, but not proof in and of itself.
 

Bible_Highlighter

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That's misleading. They worked with what they had, and as such, it's anachronistic and heavily biased to imply that they preferred the TR.
What? Do you not believe all things work together for good to those who love God?
Think. God is sovereign and in control over all things. Why would God allow faithful Christians who were slaughtered by the Catholics to have the less accurate texts, while their killers had the more correct ones? This is a lack of spiritual discernment on your part. In this view: God would have to align with the whore of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 to bring us a more accurate and better Bible. That's just crazy talk but you can believe silly things if you like.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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What? Do you not believe all things work together for good to those who love God?
Think. God is sovereign and in control over all things. Why would God allow faithful Christians who were slaughtered by the Catholics to have the less accurate texts, while their killers had the more correct ones? This is a lack of spiritual discernment on your part.
In this view: God would have to align with the whore of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 to bring us a more accurate and better Bible. That's just crazy talk but you can believe silly things if you like.
Don't be asinine. God is indeed sovereign, and has promised trouble in this world for His followers. God allowed the Catholic "church" to have enormous power while they kept the word of God from their followers. Like it or not, God's ways are higher than your self-righteous understanding.
 

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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Your argument is a genetic fallacy.
Just talk normally. There is a need for all the high and mighty fancy talk here.
There are no scholars here.

You said:
Just because the Vaticanus was found in the Vatican library is no proof of its corruption.
It is if that text radically differs from the text of the reformation Christians who were being killed by the Catholic Church.
It is if that text teaches many false doctrines including Catholic ideas.

You said:
Similarly, the involvement of a Catholic on a modern translation committee is not proof that translation is corrupt. Reason to investigate? Sure, but not proof in and of itself.
Fourteen changes in Modern Bibles that favor the Catholic Church have been found before he joined the committee. However, it wouldn’t surprise me that there were more by his joining the team. Even if that was not the case, I wouldn't want a Catholic cardinal working on behalf of the Vatican to create a Bible for me. Modern Bibles today have been influenced in some way by Catholics. This is a fact. I wouldn't want a Mormon to translate my Bible. So why would I want the Vatican supervising my Bible? I wouldn't because they are the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. We are not talking about Erasmus who rejected certain Catholic practices and created a text that the Catholic Church wanted to destroy. We are talking about the higher-ups in the Catholic Church creating a Critical Text that is the basis for all Modern Bibles.