The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

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Jan 31, 2021
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DavidTree said:
Dead people living again is RESURRECTION - i did all caps just in case you missed it.
Except i alread showed you it says " and they lived and reigned..."
Right. And AFTER they were beheaded. Why doesn't that resonate with you?

They were martyred IN the Trib. Then, when Jesus returns at the Second Advent, these beheaded martyrs "lived".

So, how does a beheaded martyr "live and reign" unless they are resurrected??? Please explain.
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Hi!
No they are not the first dead to go to living.
Jesus the FIRSTFRUITS.
Not to mention the patriarchs that were raised from the dead when Jesus resurrected.
They were seen walking the streets.
Again another great point.....

Just by this, (although there have been other resurrection's in scripture)

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

This MUST MEAN SOMETHING different than

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Matt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

No?:)

God Bless!!!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Except i alread showed you it says " and they lived and reigned..."

It is your niv that reframed it.

And you went with it.

Your choice...not what it says
You can get off that 'dead horse' thing about the NIV.

King James Bible
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

23 English translations have this wording as well.

You are sunk.

Martyrs come to live and reign. You can't twist that any other way.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Except i alread showed you it says " and they lived and reigned..."

It is your niv that reframed it.

And you went with it.


Your choice...not what it says
They lived = WHY??? Why does the Scripture say "they lived"?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Hi!

Again another great point.....

Just by this, (although there have been other resurrection's in scripture)

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

This MUST MEAN SOMETHING different than

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Matt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

No?:)

God Bless!!!
Well they think there is a resurrection of those beheaded by the ac in rev 20.

What that does is exclude those saints from the marriage supper.

This is the crux of that issue:
1) the martyrs in heaven asked for vengence. They were kept in a chamber under the throne. And were told " untill your number is fulfilled"
2) God has a number in mind and the martyrs are kept from the general population
3) then....we see the innumerable number OF MARTYRS IN THE GENERAL POPULATION.....(innumerable)
Number fulfilled?....i think yes, because now they are in the general population
..( no longer confined under the throne).

We know, according to Jesus the wedding supper is in heaven.

NOW..those espousing a resurrection of millions/ billions os saints....the bride of Christ...are not allowed into the feast????

I think not.
Because the Jews are harvested around mid trib....AND THAT IS TO the marriage supper.


Remember the 1st miracle it is forever recorded as the first miracle. So the first miracle I was at a wedding with Jews. It was said you saved the best wine for last. Think on that. You saved the best for last. Now in the Kingdom the last is first and the first is last the Jew is the first that makes them the last they come to the feast last. Revelation 14 has that dynamic. We see the first Fruit jews , 144k,....they're in heaven at the start of Revelation 14 they are first fruits meaning they are gathered first. Then further down in the same chapter we see the main Harvest of jews by Jesus holding a sickle sitting on a cloud. This is huge. Because they are gathering last. It appears to me there is a cut off point because Jesus tells the martyrs your number will be fulfilled so there is a cut-off point I believe the Gathering of the Jews it's the last group to go to the wedding supper. It is enlightning that the first miracle is cannonised at a wedding with other components. Namely the number our dynamic of last and that it is a Jewish wedding. All this points to a wedding in heaven with different Gatherings to that wedding and the last Gathering to the wedding being the Jews.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The kingdom was in the midst them, now The kingdom in those who are His.....
Its all about Yahweh and His Christ.......
God Bless!
So are you rebuking/challenging the Apostle who said: "Through great tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God."

Are you saying the Apostle John was wrong: "I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of the Lord Jesus Christ"
Are you wiser than the LORD who says to you: " These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. "

Are you able to challenge the Apostle Paul: "the dead in Christ rise First at His Coming and NOT BEFORE His Coming

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

RAH RAH all you want around the idol of 'pre-trib' = it will never occur because it never came out of the mouth of God.

Listen to the Apostle Paul: I do not want you to be ignorant brethren
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Well they think there is a resurrection of those beheaded by the ac in rev 20.

What that does is exclude those saints from the marriage supper.

This is the crux of that issue:
1) the martyrs in heaven asked for vengence. They were kept in a chamber under the throne. And were told " untill your number is fulfilled"
2) God has a number in mind and the martyrs are kept from the general population
3) then....we see the innumerable number OF MARTYRS IN THE GENERAL POPULATION.....(innumerable)
Number fulfilled?....i think yes, because now they are in the general population
..( no longer confined under the throne).

We know, according to Jesus the wedding supper is in heaven.

NOW..those espousing a resurrection of millions/ billions os saints....the bride of Christ...are not allowed into the feast????

I think not.
Because the Jews are harvested around mid trib....AND THAT IS TO the marriage supper.


Remember the 1st miracle it is forever recorded as the first miracle. So the first miracle I was at a wedding with Jews. It was said you saved the best wine for last. Think on that. You saved the best for last. Now in the Kingdom the last is first and the first is last the Jew is the first that makes them the last they come to the feast last. Revelation 14 has that dynamic. We see the first Fruit jews , 144k,....they're in heaven at the start of Revelation 14 they are first fruits meaning they are gathered first. Then further down in the same chapter we see the main Harvest of jews by Jesus holding a sickle sitting on a cloud. This is huge. Because they are gathering last. It appears to me there is a cut off point because Jesus tells the martyrs your number will be fulfilled so there is a cut-off point I believe the Gathering of the Jews it's the last group to go to the wedding supper. It is enlightning that the first miracle is cannonised at a wedding with other components. Namely the number our dynamic of last and that it is a Jewish wedding. All this points to a wedding in heaven with different Gatherings to that wedding and the last Gathering to the wedding being the Jews.
Brother, you are not an Apostle - you cannot "add to and take away from God's words"

Apostle Paul: "the dead in Christ RISE FIRST at HIS COMING"

i know all about the Wedding = you and the others are confused = NO rapture until HE COMES and the FIRST Resurrection.

the more you try shuffling scripture around, the worse it gets = you cannot override what is "written" = 1 Thess 4
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Hi!
So are you rebuking/challenging the Apostle who said: "Through great tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God."
God's people have their trials, is the kingdom not in you?
Are you saying the Apostle John was wrong: "I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of the Lord Jesus Christ"
Are you wiser than the LORD who says to you: " These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. "
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Are you able to challenge the Apostle Paul: "the dead in Christ rise First at His Coming and NOT BEFORE His Coming
Who disputed this, why do you make up accusations...?
Its ALL about GOD and HIS Christ.....
 
Nov 17, 2017
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RAH RAH all you want around the idol of 'pre-trib' = it will never occur because it never came out of the mouth of God.

Listen to the Apostle Paul: I do not want you to be ignorant brethren
Are you disputing what The Christ said?
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Hi!

God's people have their trials, is the kingdom not in you?


Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


Who disputed this, why do you make up accusations...?
Its ALL about GOD and HIS Christ.....
Where is pre-trib rapture in any of these scriptures you quoted?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Are you disputing what The Christ said?
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
No pre-trib rapture with Noah = only delieverance from the wrath that was to come

HELLO = "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

We are waiting for HIS COMING and the RESURRECTION which delivers us from the wrath of God = the wrath of the Lamb.

1.) HIS COMING = 2.) Resurrection = 3.) Deliverance from His wrath

No Resurrection = No rapture
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Hi!
Where is pre-trib rapture in any of these scriptures you quoted?
TYPOLOGY
Like Moses was a type of The Christ.
The Flood God removing the righteous from destruction,
Sodom and Gomorah, The Exodus, .....all types/ picture/examples
IN ALL God showing unmerited favor and holding back what was deserved, removing the righteous from
whatever if He did it for them, By faith we should have the same expectaTIONS......and even if HE doesnt lift a finger, He is still God.....
SO NOW being clothed in Christ's righteousness..
Ill stick with the Word of God, looking for the coming of our King......

God Bless
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
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It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Human opinion alone on this important subject is not valid - Please confirm one way or the other with Scripture.

I make this Challenge for TRUTH = Prove it by the word of Two or Three Authoritative Witnesses = Matthew 18:16
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God which is in the middle of the 7 years period.

God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast and then He will put the world down.

The reason the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God is because repentance and salvation are still available for the first three and one half years and as long as salvation is available to the world the resurrection will not happen.

The falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which they stopped the preaching of the Gospel and nothing can be taught contrary to the new age movement interpretation of religion and reality.

After this goes on for three and one half years it is the falling away because the nations came together and stopped the Gospel from being preached which allows the man of sin to rule over them.

Islam rebels against the world which is the 6th trumpet and the world does not turn to God and repent of their sins so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

Islam rebelled because they stopped them from preaching their religion and the belief in a personal God.
 
Nov 17, 2017
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No pre-trib rapture with Noah = only delieverance from the wrath that was to come

HELLO = "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

We are waiting for HIS COMING and the RESURRECTION which delivers us from the wrath of God = the wrath of the Lamb.

1.) HIS COMING = 2.) Resurrection = 3.) Deliverance from His wrath

No Resurrection = No rapture
Also, the peace the world has NOW(they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage ) is not going to be like the "false" peace of the antichrist, the first 3.5 before "Jacobs Trouble"