The False Church

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Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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#41
yep when we come to that point that we realize that the church is a body of believers connect the the holy spirit, its not a building a denomination nor a certain non denominational I believe that the church is made up of a ramnad from all the denominations and non denominations. God knows the heart and those that love Him. As long as we stay close to Him He will lead us in the right way.
Could you describe how we can stay close to the Lord please
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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#42
Actually works-based religion is man-made. That is why the Gospel of Grace had to be clearly spelled out.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:4,5)
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. James 2 states faith without works is dead. The issue therfore about works is that without works there is no faith. Works doesn't save but is evidence of faith. Jesus stated by their fruits (works) you shall know them.

Too many people on this forum reject James 2 trying to say it doesn't mean what it says.

"Faith without works is dead."
Works doesn't save but proves the faith is real!!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#43
Such a warped theology has led to this ludicrous teaching by SDA's in regards to Sunday worship. :eek:

http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
I don't see how you can come up with the opinion that scripture gives a warped theology. Also, that if you believe scripture it would lead you to one list of doctrines in any of our churches. Following Christ is not following a certain church's teaching, it is following what God tells us in scripture.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,560
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#44
Could you describe how we can stay close to the Lord please
Read and study the scripture. Psalm 119 is full of admonitions and shows the benefits of meditating upon the scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,362
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#45
I don't see how you can come up with the opinion that scripture gives a warped theology. Also, that if you believe scripture it would lead you to one list of doctrines in any of our churches. Following Christ is not following a certain church's teaching, it is following what God tells us in scripture.
I did not say that Scripture gives a warped theology.

The warped theology in regards to Sunday worship and the mark of the beast as taught by the SDA church can be found in the link below.

http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
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#46
I did not say that Scripture gives a warped theology.

The warped theology in regards to Sunday worship and the mark of the beast as taught by the SDA church can be found in the link below.

http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
Scripture tells us the Sabbath is on the seventh day. The seventh day is Saturday. You say that it is warped theology to say that we are to worship on Saturday. And where this SDA comes in is sort of from left field. We are speaking of you saying what scripture tells us is warped theology, not a certain church.

If scripture tells us that Saturday is the day for rest and worship and you say that is warped theology, I am repeating your words. Now it isn't?
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
1,936
538
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#48
Could you describe how we can stay close to the Lord please
The same way we stay close to anyone; spend time with Him. It is said you most resemble a collective of the five people you spend the most time with. Reading about somebody is very different than talking to them. God wants a relationship with us not just lip service.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,059
627
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#49
Here's what I find with regard to the "sabbath/sabbaths" and "worship" (perhaps someone else can find other verses pertaining to the two [?]):

Isaiah 66:23

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 46:3

Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons.


[I see both of the above verses as "future," per contexts]


Colossians 2

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are [present tense; plural] a shadow [singular] of things to come [things coming (i.e. future); plural]; but the body is of Christ.

Exodus 31

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Hebrews 4

8 For if Jesus [Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest [sabbatismos] to the people of God. [see Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11, referring specifically to Israel (in their future)]

10 For he that is entered [having entered in - aorist] into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
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#50
Read and study the scripture. Psalm 119 is full of admonitions and shows the benefits of meditating upon the scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Thanks Roger, Psalm 119 is certainly rich with instruction. I need inspiration to stay close to the Lord, it's so easy to stray.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,362
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#51
Scripture tells us the Sabbath is on the seventh day. The seventh day is Saturday. You say that it is warped theology to say that we are to worship on Saturday. And where this SDA comes in is sort of from left field. We are speaking of you saying what scripture tells us is warped theology, not a certain church.

If scripture tells us that Saturday is the day for rest and worship and you say that is warped theology, I am repeating your words. Now it isn't?
No need for straw man arguments. I never said the Sabbath was not on the seventh day, which is Saturday. I'm not calling that warped theology. The teaching of SDA's that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday is warped theology! - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

It sounds to me like you may be having a hard time making the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
501
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#52
The same way we stay close to anyone; spend time with Him. It is said you most resemble a collective of the five people you spend the most time with. Reading about somebody is very different than talking to them. God wants a relationship with us not just lip service.
God is our God, very special to us. God is companion, helper, holy, soon to be our bridegroom. God wants obedience and purity from us through Christ.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
501
113
#53
No need for straw man arguments. I never said the Sabbath was not on the seventh day, which is Saturday. I'm not calling that warped theology. The teaching of SDA's that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday is warped theology! - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

It sounds to me like you may be having a hard time making the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.
We are a long ways apart in how we understand what the Lord is telling us.

For example, I don't find anything in scripture that tells me that God took back any promise He made, so the old covenant still stands. It is obsolete that we are to use the blood of animals to represent Christ, we are to use Christ when we ask forgiveness. In Hebrews it speaks of this, and our church today is throwing out the covenant from the Lord based on this. If it was so that we are to throw it out then the word covenant would have to be changed to describe this. A covenant spells out a relationship and can't be changed.

There are many kinds of law. There is natural law we are born with, the law of Moses that God gave us, and traditional law that is part of the culture of the Jewish people, and the law as declared in Acts 15 that allowed gentiles to enter the synagogue to learn of the Lord. We are not required to obey the traditional law of the Jews. The order to kill people who did not honor the Sabbath is under Jewish tradition, not the law of Moses.

Our church today has as part of their theology much that is God's orders, listing it as traditional law
when scripture tells us it is from God to be obeyed forever such as the feasts and Sabbath.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#54
We are a long ways apart in how we understand what the Lord is telling us.

For example, I don't find anything in scripture that tells me that God took back any promise He made, so the old covenant still stands. It is obsolete that we are to use the blood of animals to represent Christ, we are to use Christ when we ask forgiveness. In Hebrews it speaks of this, and our church today is throwing out the covenant from the Lord based on this. If it was so that we are to throw it out then the word covenant would have to be changed to describe this. A covenant spells out a relationship and can't be changed.

There are many kinds of law. There is natural law we are born with, the law of Moses that God gave us, and traditional law that is part of the culture of the Jewish people, and the law as declared in Acts 15 that allowed gentiles to enter the synagogue to learn of the Lord. We are not required to obey the traditional law of the Jews. The order to kill people who did not honor the Sabbath is under Jewish tradition, not the law of Moses.

Our church today has as part of their theology much that is God's orders, listing it as traditional law
when scripture tells us it is from God to be obeyed forever such as the feasts and Sabbath.
The old covenant has been made obsolete to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

More exhaustive list:

Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22,23,24; 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23; 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
501
113
#55
The old covenant has been made obsolete to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

More exhaustive list:

Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22,23,24; 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23; 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14
You are understanding that the new covenant, the covenant that is all of Christ giving His blood for us, is better than the old covenant is telling you that because it is better it cancels all the old covenant tells us. In my understanding there is no cancellation because it is better. It is better in addition to all the old.

Parts of the old are obsolete, we don't need the blood of animals. Christ's blood is better in many ways.

God is still an awesome God, a blessing and to be worshipped, Christ is to be followed. When we tell ourselves there has been a cancellation it brings on the idea that God is not to be obeyed and worshipped.

When Christ taught us to pray He did not say pray to me. Christ is the Son, given power by His Father. Christ said to pray to our heavenly Father, hallowed be His name. The prayer Christ gave us is a condensation of the prayer that all Jews in Christ's time prayed daily, the standing prayer. It was given to us 400 years before Christ, it is not quoted in scripture, but even today the Jews pray this prayer. The prayer Christ gave us is so like a condensed version of this prayer that we can know Christ prayed these words. This prayer does not just say hallowed be His name, it lists the attributes of the Father. We are not to shuffle God to one side as "old covenant".
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,362
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#56
You are understanding that the new covenant, the covenant that is all of Christ giving His blood for us, is better than the old covenant is telling you that because it is better it cancels all the old covenant tells us. In my understanding there is no cancellation because it is better. It is better in addition to all the old.

Parts of the old are obsolete, we don't need the blood of animals. Christ's blood is better in many ways.
It sounds to me like you are having a difficult time making the transition from the old covenant into the new covenant.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#57
The order to kill people who did not honor the Sabbath is under Jewish tradition, not the law of Moses.
From the law of Moses:

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,362
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#58
The order to kill people who did not honor the Sabbath is under Jewish tradition, not the law of Moses.
Is Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36 Jewish tradition or Scripture?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,725
501
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#59
Is Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36 Jewish tradition or Scripture?
Frankly, I don't know. I know that it is a sin to kill. I know that the Lord proclaimed Saturday our day of est. I know that sin kills, not the body as we live here but in the afterlife. Other than these things that I know, I just do not understand the order to kill those who disobey the Lord. There are many safeguard for people accused so carrying out a death sentence was difficult for them. Perhaps the answer lies here.

I do not believe God wants us to disregard what God did at creation because we don't understand these passages.
 

Dem

Member
Mar 7, 2018
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#60
Could you describe how we can stay close to the Lord please
wow not sure what you mean by this question. is it a sarcastic one or a sincere one .