The False Doctrine of OSAS

[Mediate]

The problem here is the word 'faith' as used in English. In the English language it signifies simply stating in one's mind 'I believe in Christ'.

Faith, in Hebrew and Aramaic, was more than that.

Faith is actually all encompassing. To truly 'Believe upon thy name', means that the heart, mind and soul of a person is focused on the intent of Christ. Ie. 'Sharing in the will of God', or, 'knowing the mind of the spirit'.

It is a word of total servitude, commitment, intent, thought and action all focused on the 'will of God'.

It is summed up when Jesus says 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. In this, to truly cultivate love is to truly have faith upon Jesus name.

This is where there is often a distinction made in English 'faith vs works'.

But in fact, the two are inseparable.

 

[Crossfire]

Where does it say abide in the Holy Spirit? It says abide in CHRIST.
The Holy Spirit is the Helper - the guarantee. He abides in the believer, uniting them to Christ!
Will the Holy Spirit walk off the job (abandon the purchased possession) and refuse to carry out His Commission?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Was not Christ both human and divine, his flesh being human but his Spirit divine? If this is not so then why did Christ breath on His disciples and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit in the book of John?

 

[Crossfire]

Please understand, just because we may not agree on some things does not make us enemies or the other a heretic. That sort of thing is nothing but religious pride and a tool of the enemy meant to divide.

Ultimately, God is capable of defending himself. Both the biblical & historical record shows that when people attempt to defend God according to their perception of God, they usually end up doing the opposite of what God would have them do. Many people have been murdered and many wars fought in the name of God but would God approve?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't say that at all. Again you are seeing what you want to see and are making presumptions because of it.

As I stated, there are certain elements of OSAS that I would agree with and others I do not. The simple
truth is that licentiousness is every bit as active in the church as legalism and both are cancers.

Well this is where the problem lies. OSAS does not teach licentiousness. Those who believe in a licentious gospel use OSAS to support their false faith. But it is no way teaches licentiousness. This is a misinterpretation of what OSAS means.

Unlike many on these forums, I know that you do not acknowledge licentious behavior and for that I do commend you greatly. Please understand, a lot of what I have shared is not directed toward you thus none of it should be take personally. The only thing that you state that I heavily disagree is the notion that those who speak of remedy for sin are sin centered. I feel that is a cop out used by certain grace camps to justify ignoring what truly lives deep in their hearts.

I talk about the remedy for sin because I personally have witnessed people set free from the bondage of sin and have seen God use these people mightily to many save souls and deliver people. On the other hand, I have seen very little to no good fruit from the other camp. In fact, the number of bad fruit exceeds the good fruit by a landslide.

then instead of fighting OSAS. lets fight licentiousness. OSAS is from God, Licentiousness is not. You have also been here long enough that I have fought those us use OSAS in a way never intended.

Saying you disagre with licenteousness does not mean you have to disagree with eternal life being eternal. and when god said those of us who believe in him will never die, he means it. And we believe in this, we MUST believe in OSAS. for it is based on Christ and his work, and not our own ability.

 

[marianna]

I talk about the remedy for sin because I personally have witnessed people set free from the bondage of sin and have seen God use these people mightily to many save souls and deliver people.

Have you seen men made sinless? Is that what you are saying?

Men are saving men? Men are delivering men?
Crossfire, you said you were a monergist.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

I thank God He is not like so many of us who say we love the brethren but would cut them off in a moment for the very things we have in our own hearts.

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? - Matthew 18:12

 

[marianna]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Was not Christ both human and divine, his flesh being human but his Spirit divine? If this is not so then why did Christ breath on His disciples and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit in the book of John?

Because the Day of Pentecost had not come.
Perhaps I misunderstand you but you sometimes sound extremist.
Surely you do not believe you are becoming Divine?

The Holy Spirit is a seal, an anointing, a guarantee.
If you want to make it Jesus, great! So do I!

Has He made His abode in you or not?

Has He made His abode in your brothers? Then why do you judge them continually when you are not better than they, you have nothing you did not receive.

 

[Mediate]

'breathe' - speak his words

 

[marianna]

Please understand, just because we may not agree on some things does not make us enemies or the other a heretic. That sort of thing is nothing but religious pride and a tool of the enemy meant to divide.

Ultimately, God is capable of defending himself. Both the biblical & historical record shows that when people attempt to defend God according to their perception of God, they usually end up doing the opposite of what God would have them do. Many people have been murdered and many wars fought in the name of God but would God approve?

I agree with this.
No, He is angered when there are divisions.

Why do we always try to do the Holy Spirit's work for Him?

If we are faithful to attend to our spiritual food, and our fellowship even as we all still have sin, will we not be growing day by day? Will we not see victory day by day in Christ? But what if we have some claiming they have attained superiority, even sinless lives - will we not either withdraw in disgrace and discouragement or learn to lie about and to ourselves? This is not good. This is not what we are called to do.

If my Pastor or my brothers and sisters were continually claiming to be able to see into everyone else's lives and hearts, allegorically dragging always the other before the LORD saying "See! This woman was caught in adultery" what would He say to them?

As for this ongoing issue with licentiousness:


Gnosticism
(nŏs´tĭsĭzm) , dualistic religious and philosophical movement of the late Hellenistic and early Christian eras. The term designates a wide assortment of sects, numerous by the 2d cent. ; they all promised salvation through an occult knowledge that they claimed was revealed to them alone. .....

Some Gnostics taught that the world is ruled by evil archons, among them the deity of the Old Testament, who hold captive the spirit of humanity. The heavenly pleroma was the center of the divine life, and Jesus was interpreted as an intermediary eternal being, or aeon, sent from the pleroma to restore the lost knowledge of humanity's divine origin. Gnostics held secret formulas, which they believed would free them at death from the evil archons and restore them to their heavenly abode. See Valentinus for typical Gnostic teaching on the pleroma.

Gnosticism held that human beings consist of flesh, soul, and spirit (the divine spark), and that humanity is divided into classes representing each of these elements. The purely corporeal (hylic) lacked spirit and could never be saved; the Gnostics proper (pneumatic) bore knowingly the divine spark and their salvation was certain; and those, like the Christians, who stood in between (psychic), might attain a lesser salvation through faith. Such a doctrine may have inspired extreme asceticism (as in the Valentinian school) or extreme licentiousness (as in the sect of Caprocrates and the Ophites).

God Bless
marianna

 

[marianna]

The problem here is the word 'faith' as used in English. In the English language it signifies simply stating in one's mind 'I believe in Christ'.

Faith, in Hebrew and Aramaic, was more than that.

Faith is actually all encompassing. To truly 'Believe upon thy name', means that the heart, mind and soul of a person is focused on the intent of Christ. Ie. 'Sharing in the will of God', or, 'knowing the mind of the spirit'.

It is a word of total servitude, commitment, intent, thought and action all focused on the 'will of God'.

It is summed up when Jesus says 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. In this, to truly cultivate love is to truly have faith upon Jesus name.

This is where there is often a distinction made in English 'faith vs works'.

But in fact, the two are inseparable.

This is true.
But Who made this happen?

What did God say here concerning the Coming of Pentecost?:

25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.


Look carefully:

27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

 

[cfultz3]

It is used to control others. It is used to promote oneself higher then another. It's used by Satan to make weak Christians in doubt their faith and the work of Christ. In other cases it's a genuine belief among genuine believers. The only one that should be concerned about whether or not your in the faith is you (not you in particular), Paul says to examine yourself. There are many well respected scholars who embrace OSAS, and some who don't...Why do you continually hound the one's who believe it? This is not edifying the Church, for some ungodly reason you guys feel it necessary to force your doctrine down our throats.

Neither were they who said they were Jews and were found not to be and were thrown out of the church. Or the antichrists who were not sent by the Apostles. My poiont: just because people accept a doctrine which is contrary to Scripture does mean that those who see Scripture which contradicts that particular doctrine has to be silent because they who accept it agree to it. Are we not told to be a light to the world? Do you suppose that those who remained silent but knew the Truth will be dealth with any less harshely then those who misled by being misled?

 

[cfultz3]

wow, you just further took the reliability of this thread down. Not only are you false advertizing a false truth about us, But I answered this question and you did not even respond to it. In fact that particular post had no response at all. I wonder why? You could not refute it?[/quote]
To that question you responded:

The whole new testament teaches us what we have to do to enter his rest. It is a lifelong process, and there are many things we have to do before we can even start to enter his rest. I still have along way to go myself. And I would never think I made it, because when we do think this this is when satan comes in in our false thinking that we have made it and takes us out.


Ok.

If the New Testament tells us what to do - then that is an action. And if we do not do it, that is still an action. Now, if we do do it but later turn away from it, then we must agree that one can lose their salvation for the simply fact that God Himself, the One we claim to be our Father, said, 'When a righteous person does turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity and I (note the 'I') place a stumblingblock before him (so that he can fall off the path I am leading on), he WILL die. All the righteousness he has done shall NOT be mentioned, but in his trepasses which he has trespassed, and in that sin which he sinned in, in those things he SHALL DIE'. Come Eternally Grateful, take God for His word.

 

[cfultz3]

wow, you just further took the reliability of this thread down. Not only are you false advertizing a false truth about us, But I answered this question and you did not even respond to it. In fact that particular post had no response at all. I wonder why? You could not refute it?

You are a poster too. You know it is hard to answer everything. Simple, if you have a post which is not answered, take that in consideration and remind the person of that post and if they then do not respond then your reply as above would be most approbiate to tell the world you have won.

 

[Red33]

wow, you just further took the reliability of this thread down. Not only are you false advertizing a false truth about us, But I answered this question and you did not even respond to it. In fact that particular post had no response at all. I wonder why? You could not refute it?

To that question you responded:

The whole new testament teaches us what we have to do to enter his rest. It is a lifelong process, and there are many things we have to do before we can even start to enter his rest. I still have along way to go myself. And I would never think I made it, because when we do think this this is when satan comes in in our false thinking that we have made it and takes us out.


Ok.

If the New Testament tells us what to do - then that is an action. And if we do not do it, that is still an action. Now, if we do do it but later turn away from it, then we must agree that one can lose their salvation for the simply fact that God Himself, the One we claim to be our Father, said, 'When a righteous person does turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity and I (note the 'I') place a stumblingblock before him (so that he can fall off the path I am leading on), he WILL die. All the righteousness he has done shall NOT be mentioned, but in his trepasses which he has trespassed, and in that sin which he sinned in, in those things he SHALL DIE'. Come Eternally Grateful, take God for His word.
[/quote]

You are a very misled man who has never learned God's faith-rest which is not accomplished through any special form of repentance or in keeping the commandments. The faith-rest that we are given by the Lord the moment we believe is the eternal rest and quiet resting place of God's righteousness imputed unto us by faith (Is 32:17,18, Mt 11:28-30, Rom 4:5,6, 21-24, 10:10, Jm 2:23, ).

 

[Trax]

So, if you have nothing else to do, then the OSAS doctrine teaches that we are at rest. Scripture teaches us that we are to love and if we do not love then we have neither the Father nor the Son. So you see, love is a commandment and is therefore something we must do to maintain the fellowship we have with both. Jesus spoke Truth when He said, "If you love me, then keep my commandemnts."

Hmmm, hi EG. I think I have been replying.

What have I said that is not based on Scriptural facts?

Well, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and He is our guarantee. Since God sees the end from the
beginning, whatever debt that will be run up, by the sinner, is paid for. We get the Holy Spirit
as a seal and guarantee. If you don't feel as if you have been sealed and given a guarantee, then
what did Jesus pay for? Did He leave you with a debt, that must be paid? If so, you are working
for yourself. You can't serve two masters. And if anyone isn't sealed with the Holy Spirit and given
the guarantee, they aren't part of Jesus.

 

[GreenNnice]

The problem here is the word 'faith' as used in English. In the English language it signifies simply stating in one's mind 'I believe in Christ'.

Faith, in Hebrew and Aramaic, was more than that.

Faith is actually all encompassing. To truly 'Believe upon thy name', means that the heart, mind and soul of a person is focused on the intent of Christ. Ie. 'Sharing in the will of God', or, 'knowing the mind of the spirit'.

It is a word of total servitude, commitment, intent, thought and action all focused on the 'will of God'.

It is summed up when Jesus says 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. In this, to truly cultivate love is to truly have faith upon Jesus name.

This is where there is often a distinction made in English 'faith vs works'.

But in fact, the two are inseparable.

The Holy Spirit puts faith in action, mediation, as He leads, again, it's a personal relationship Christ seeks most from His sheep , one where they know His voice, and, He does know there's.

Have you seen men made sinless? Is that what you are saying?

Men are saving men? Men are delivering men?
Crossfire, you said you were a monergist.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

I thank God He is not like so many of us who say we love the brethren but would cut them off in a moment for the very things we have in our own hearts.

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? - Matthew 18:12

We are to abide in Him, this is the Holy Spirit, mari, we are to walk with Him, this, too, is the Holy Spirit in us.

We are to live our life following His Way, that WILL lead us to Truth and Life understanding to the fullest which ALL believers WILL want to seek unto, finally, being given, as they obey, His rest.

Also, not bringing up post, mari, but you said we abide in Jesus, this is Truth but we abide in Him, too, Who is our Helper,cas you did say correctly.
The Holy Spirit is Who Jesus gave us, to be with us, Who IS of Jesus, IS of God , but Who is the Holy Spirit Who IS to abide in us and walk with us.

So, no, to your thinking we abide in Jesus, we ABIDE in 'Him.'

Jesus now sits at the right hand of God.

 

[GreenNnice]

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? - Matthew 18:12

God will NOT force His sheep back, they know His voice, why would He?

They KNOW His voice and IF His sheep choose to stray, yes, He will go look for them and find them but will they come back to the flock is a question He knows but that is because Christ knows all, He still will jot force His hand on them to bring them back. The Helper will counsel, advocate lead, but our following Him back, like the prodigal son, is up to we sheep

 

[cfultz3]

To that question you responded:

The whole new testament teaches us what we have to do to enter his rest. It is a lifelong process, and there are many things we have to do before we can even start to enter his rest. I still have along way to go myself. And I would never think I made it, because when we do think this this is when satan comes in in our false thinking that we have made it and takes us out.


Ok.

If the New Testament tells us what to do - then that is an action. And if we do not do it, that is still an action. Now, if we do do it but later turn away from it, then we must agree that one can lose their salvation for the simply fact that God Himself, the One we claim to be our Father, said, 'When a righteous person does turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity and I (note the 'I') place a stumblingblock before him (so that he can fall off the path I am leading on), he WILL die. All the righteousness he has done shall NOT be mentioned, but in his trepasses which he has trespassed, and in that sin which he sinned in, in those things he SHALL DIE'. Come Eternally Grateful, take God for His word.

You are a very misled man who has never learned God's faith-rest which is not accomplished through any special form of repentance or in keeping the commandments. The faith-rest that we are given by the Lord the moment we believe is the eternal rest and quiet resting place of God's righteousness imputed unto us by faith (Is 32:17,18, Mt 11:28-30, Rom 4:5,6, 21-24, 10:10, Jm 2:23, ).[/quote]


What say you of God's very own words?

 

[cfultz3]

Trax,

Well, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and He is our guarantee. -- Yes He is. But, freewill?

Since God sees the end from the beginning, whatever debt that will be run up, by the sinner, is paid for. Except?

We get the Holy Spirit as a seal and guarantee. If you don't feel as if you have been sealed and given a guarantee, -- I point others to the need of having God's Spirit to guide us home, yet you have not seen me speak of this more times than there are numbers?

then what did Jesus pay for? -- He paid for my sins. He has given me everlasting life. He has given me of His Spirit so that I may be led to His rest. There is no doubt in my mind that God is my Savior. But then again, IF I TURN from my righteousness, what will happen to my righteousness? So, all the more, I depend on Him in His wisdom to lead me.

Did He leave you with a debt, that must be paid? -- He left me hope, He left me with the Spirit of Hope. But then again, have I not said this abundently in other posts? The only thing left for me to do to enter my sabbatical rest is to hearken to His leading me to that rest. (the answer to the question)

If so, you are working for yourself. -- My salvation is assured in the same way you have mentioned. Obedinece to Him is not work, it is common sense, seeing that He and He along knows the way home. So, if I concur with that, that is work?

You can't serve two masters. --So I will obey Him in His leading Love you!!!

And if anyone isn't sealed with the Holy Spirit and given the guarantee, they aren't part of Jesus. -- My point exactely. If one refuses God's Spirit, that one is fatherless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

wow, you just further took the reliability of this thread down. Not only are you false advertizing a false truth about us, But I answered this question and you did not even respond to it. In fact that particular post had no response at all. I wonder why? You could not refute it?
To that question you responded:

The whole new testament teaches us what we have to do to enter his rest. It is a lifelong process, and there are many things we have to do before we can even start to enter his rest. I still have along way to go myself. And I would never think I made it, because when we do think this this is when satan comes in in our false thinking that we have made it and takes us out.


Ok.

If the New Testament tells us what to do - then that is an action. And if we do not do it, that is still an action. Now, if we do do it but later turn away from it, then we must agree that one can lose their salvation for the simply fact that God Himself, the One we claim to be our Father, said, 'When a righteous person does turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity and I (note the 'I') place a stumblingblock before him (so that he can fall off the path I am leading on), he WILL die. All the righteousness he has done shall NOT be mentioned, but in his trepasses which he has trespassed, and in that sin which he sinned in, in those things he SHALL DIE'. Come Eternally Grateful, take God for His word.

lol. you keep going off on side streets.

No I do not have to agree with you because salvation is not based on whether or not we enter his rest or not. Faith rest is where we trust God with everything, even during tribulation and suffering, it is not where we stop sin. Stopping sin comes from trusting God and his commands. And even this we can not do perfectly. which I just showed. This is not a response to what I said, this is your opinion of what you are tying to make true.

I have no clue where you got that thing you claim Jesus said. But eternal life is eternal. The thief on the cross was saved because he had faith, before he did one good deed. He did not enter Gods rest,

Not to mention. you forget rom 3. for ALL have sinned. There is non righteous. You seem to think you can be righteous? While at the same time you place us under law. because through the law only can we know who does what is good and who does not do. As paul said, I would not know coveting was sin if the law did not say so.

 

[cfultz3]

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? - Matthew 18:12

God will NOT force His sheep back, they know His voice, why would He?

They KNOW His voice and IF His sheep choose to stray, yes, He will go look for them and find them but will they come back to the flock is a question He knows but that is because Christ knows all, He still will jot force His hand on them to bring them back. The Helper will counsel, advocate lead, but our following Him back, like the prodigal son, is up to we sheep

Did not the prodigal son make up his own mind to return (rhetorical)