The false early rapture timing doctrine

[TheDivineWatermark]

The collective understanding of the church orthodox teaching is the known as the "imminence" of the Lord coming.

Right.

And the concept of "imminence" doesn't mean, as some mistakenly suppose, that 'it can happen at any time [throughout history]'; that is not what scholars mean when they speak of this idea of "imminence".

What is meant, instead, is that NO "biblically-defined SIGNS" [and the like] PRECEDE and point to/toward the Rapture event; Instead, they all FOLLOW our Rapture, and point to/toward (and lead UP TO) His Second Coming to the earth.

 

[Dave-L]

Paul's point in 2Th2 is to tell of the SEQUENCE...

WHAT must take place IN RELATION [time-wise] to what OTHER THING.



He's saying, in v.2, don't let anyone convince you that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]".

It wasn't, and Paul is explaining (to them) WHY.

However, they were not STUPID people (like the faulty interp's make them out to be ! )



They "understood" WHAT "the DOTL" is (the OT spoke of it, and Paul had mentioned it in the PREVIOUS letter)... and in fact, he had said in his previous letter that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" that it will ARRIVE like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" comes UPON a woman with child/in labor... (1Th5:2-3). [note: Jesus didn't stop with the FIRST "birth PANG" but mentioned the PLURAL ones that FOLLOW ON FROM that FIRST "birth PANG"--"birth PANGS" work that way ]



But people tend to BLUR TOGETHER (into ONE) TWO distinct issues in this passage:

--the SUBJECT of VERSE 1 is "our Rapture" (BOTH PARTS of this verse 1);

--this isn't the Subject of VERSE 2 (which is what Paul is starting out with in v.3a); the Subject of v.2 is "the Day of the Lord" (that they are NOT to be persuaded by anyone trying to convince them that it "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"...

...meaning, basically, already arrived. This is NOT "Jesus' OWN arrival" nor "our Rapture's arrival" but the arrival of "the DOTL" EARTHLY time period [with its JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth; which is consistent with their PRESENT NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES, 2Th1:4]--They understood WHAT it is, Paul is telling of the SEQUENCE--the "ONE THING" that must take place *FIRST* before it can be present to unfold upon the earth WITH its "man of sin" and all that he will DO)



CONFLATING these TWO DISTINCT ITEMS [v.1 and v.2] (as most do) has a person starting off on the wrong path, in interpreting this passage, just as you are doing with it (one issue among several, of this passage, very oft-misinterpreted). Don't skip over (or leave OUT) v.2 when ascertaining what v.3a is referring to!

It's this simple. Paul says the rapture happens after the resurrection. Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day. Scripture never mentions a "pre-trib rapture".

 

[Dave-L]

Not as good as yours. Sounds like you’ve already been made perfect.

If you are born again you can do this.

Here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)


We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is Lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's this simple. Paul says the rapture happens after the resurrection.

Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery"

This is something NOT having been theretofore, as yet, disclosed.

Paul was tasked (by our Lord) with DISCLOSING it.

"Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"--NOT to all saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints... SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [saved "in this present age [singular]"; note again Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); this is WHO Paul was addressing/tasked with addressing.

Paul specifically said (in that passage), "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (i.e. "the DEAD *IN* Christ" and the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [also *IN*Christ]--both aspects of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to whom this was addressed [recall again Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]).

Regarding the word "resurrection," I already showed in past posts:

--"[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" shows there is a SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only ONE point in time for it ('the resurrection OF LIFE' / the first of two named in that verse; whereas the other is known as 'the resurrection OF DAMNATION/JUDGMENT')

--the 2W are resurrected and ascend up into heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe" time-frame, at a DISTINCT time from when any others are resurrected... WHY IS THIS? They are humans as well. Why a different time-slot?

--Rev20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he having A PART [G3313] IN the resurrection the first"... it does not say, this is the ONLY point in time when it will have occurred... this is the last segment of its totality (b/f the MK age commences upon His "RETURN" here)

--Martha, Daniel, Job, and all OT saints already WELL-KNEW of the resurrection AT the last day [which is not "a singular 24-hr day," tho "resurrection" occurs at one point IN it, surely], this was no mystery to them, it WAS already disclosed to them; this is DISTINCT from what Paul was tasked with NOW disclosing (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [saints "in this present age [singular]"])

Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day.

"The Last Day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" but a time-period of MUCH DURATION, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN it. I explained that in a previous post (where I pointed out Hosea 5:14-6:3 and also Exodus 31:13,17, etc).

So the text states "IN/AT the last day" rather than "ON" it, as though it consisted merely of "a singular 24-hr day," which it does not.
I also pointed out the DISTINCTION between John 6:39 [things] and 6:40 [persons], which is consistent in all other verses relating.

I also pointed out how the people IN HEAVEN in Rev5:9 are saying "hath redeemed US" and they are wearing "stephanos/crowns," that which Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" and "not to him ONLY" (note: not the day of his DEATH). And they are shown sitting on "24 THRONES" and this is JUST BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening SEAL 1 (parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" and which Rev1:1 says the TIME-PERIOD pertaining to THIS [and the other JUDGMENTS] is to transpire "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and THAT is NOT in the same time period as "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" but is DISTINCT FROM it.)

We are exhorted to distinguish the things that differ, and it is said to be a good and right thing to be "CORRECTLY APPORTION[-ING] the word of truth"... when we do not do this, we only make one big pile of MISH-MASH of MUSH that is inaccurate and mars the picture.

Scripture never mentions a "pre-trib rapture".

The post you quoted of mine (and other related posts in this thread) has gone into SOME of the ways that 2Th2 has been misinterpreted so that what Paul is actually conveying, cannot be seen clearly for what it says, and that is the SEQUENCE [repeated 3x here, and identical sequence to 1Th4-5] and how that ONE THING must take place *FIRST* before "the DOTL" with its JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING over time, can be present upon the earth (WITH its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of some time! IOW, he is not "revealed" the moment he is "DESTROYED"... the time-period matches OTHER PASSAGES, both OT and NT).

Paul is not saying (v.2) don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *is present [perfect indicative]*

Paul is not saying, don't let anyone convince you JESUS HIMSELF *is present [perfect indicative]*

Paul is not saying, don't let anyone convince you THE KINGDOM "age to come" *is present [perfect indicative]*

So, WHAT IS IT that Paul *IS* saying here in verse 2 ?? [bearing in mind their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they are ONGOINGLY ENDURING, per 2Th1:4... the CONTEXT and SETTING of this letter of Paul to them]

 

[Ahwatukee]

(Part 1)

The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verse 17.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I will tell you why I included verse 16 in a moment.

The catching up together of those who are alive when the Lord returns, that is the rapture.
So we see there will indeed be a rapture. The controversy with the rapture is not a matter of whether it
is real or not. The controversy is over the timing.

Unfortunately the ministers of Satan have taken simple to understand scripture and twisted it
to deceive unlearned Christians. The ministers of Satan teach that the rapture happens before the Lord
returns at the very end. They teach that Christians are getting a special get out of persecution free card to leave this world early.

First of all, it is not a "get out of persecution free card." What it is, is a "get out of the time of God's wrath free card," which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And the reason for this, is because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Therefore, since God's wrath has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. As it is written, "we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath."

"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you 'out of' the hour of trial that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

Jesus promise to keep believers "out of" the our of trial means that we will not even be exposed to it. You along with others continue to make the same mistakes, not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness in opposition to God's direct wrath upon the inhabitants of the whole earth. For example, the persecution that the apostles and the first century church suffered was not a result of God's wrath but they suffered the common trials and tribulations that the Lord said we would suffer because of our faith. You are just another who is not recognizing the difference between the two. So, believers are not getting out of persecution, but will be removed prior to God's wrath which will be against a Christ rejecting world.

"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

"But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping, meaning "you brothers will escape" that time of destruction just as Paul described in the previous chapter where the living will be changed and caught up.

And secondly, you also don't understand that the resurrection and the gathering of the church is a separate event in opposition to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age which takes place after God's wrath

Let's look at the verses again and see if they can give us any information regarding the timing of the rapture.
In verse 16 we see the Lord returns and at that time the dead in Christ shall rise first. This is important.
The dead in Christ rise first. Then going directly to the next words in verse 17 it says "then". Then meaning
after what just preceded. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

What does this mean?
This tells us the resurrection happens first and THEN the rapture happens.
Why is this important?
Because if we can figure out when the resurrection happens then we can know
exactly when the rapture happens because it takes place right after.

Thankfully God is not the author of confusion and has not left us without sound doctrine so that
we are not left in the dark concerning these things.
The Bible tells us 5 different times in the gospel of John when the resurrection takes place.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY.
Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

Wrong again!

Just fyi, the first resurrection is made up of stages or phases:

* Jesus the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Cor.15:22)

* The church at his coming including the gathering of those still alive (1 Thess.4:13-18)

* The Male Child aka the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints and OT saints (Rev.20:6-8)

So you see, there are different stages to the first resurrection, with the church being next. After that and during the middle of the seven years, the Male Child which is a collective name representing the 144,000 will be caught up to God's throne. Then during that same time the two witnesses will be resurrected and ascend into heaven. After the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the great tribulation saints who will have died during that time, will be resurrected, as well as the OT saints.

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. By the way, the term "last day" is not referring to a specific day, but is referring to the last day time period. There is no way that all of the groups mentioned above can be resurrected at the same time. The "first resurrection" is in direct opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, which consists of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.

(Continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

(Part 2)

The reason that Satan's ministers have decided to teach this false timing rapture doctrine is because
scripture tells us the Antichrist must first come before the end.
If you are expecting the true messiah Jesus Christ to return before the very end to save
you from the persecution of the Antichrist and his wicked followers then you are actually going to get
the false messiah/Antichrist who comes to deceive the world into believing that he is God.

Once again, we are not escaping from persecution, but are being removed from the earth before the Lord begins to pour out His wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer it. There's a big difference between the trials and tribulations that come because of our faith vs. God's direct unprecedented wrath which will be poured out upon an unbelieving, Christ rejecting world. This is what you are not taking into consideration and why your claim is false. You're making your claim half-cocked, i.e. not having all of the scriptural information.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The first thing that needs to be established from the scripture above is what "that day" is referring to? Below is the first part of the scripture which you left out:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

So, Paul starts off with "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him." Then in verse 2 he refers to "the day of the Lord," also referred to in verse 3 as "that day."

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, is in reference to His promise in John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:16-17 & 1 Cor.15:51-53 when the living in Christ are changed and caught up. This is a blessed event when believers will be removed from the earth. In opposition The Day of the Lord (that day), will be a day of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. The first one is a blessed event and the other a time of punishment which will continue right up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It is not until after the 7th bowl judgment is poured out that Christ returns to the earth.

That said, it is 'the Day of the Lord' which Paul is saying will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed and not the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.

The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him takes place just prior to the Day of the Lord. Once the church has been gathered, then the first seal rider on the white horse will be opened, which symbolically represents the antichrist. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which includes the beasts/antichrists reign, is all apart of God's wrath.

Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years since Christ came.
They are being martyred now, even openly in eastern countries. And we will continue to be martyred until the very end.
Few will survive to take part in the rapture. Nobody is getting an escape card in these last days.

Yes you are correct, "Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years. However, as I have already made known to you, the coming wrath of God is not the same as the trials and tribulations that the church has been experiencing for the last 2000 years and should not be considered as such. This time of unprecedented wrath, is a set time period when God will pour out His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, including the plagues that the two witnesses will bring. By the time Christ returns, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantle.

Everything that God does is a legal process. That said, since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Those who have believed have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Jesus also fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law, satisfying it completely and that on behalf of every believer. Therefore the believer is no longer under the Law, but follows Christ and are led by the Spirit. Likewise, the requirement for sin is death, which Jesus also satisfied and that on behalf of every believer. Therefore, believers no longer owe the debt of death.

You are quite wrong regarding your post

 

[BlessedCreator]

The original post makes it very easy to understand, the resurrection happens on the last day, then afterwards the rapture happens. God is not the author of confusion. This is a very simple doctrine if you do not have itching ears.

 

[Dave-L]

Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery"

This is something NOT having been theretofore, as yet, disclosed.

Paul was tasked (by our Lord) with DISCLOSING it.

"Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"--NOT to all saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints... SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [saved "in this present age [singular]"; note again Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); this is WHO Paul was addressing/tasked with addressing.

Paul specifically said (in that passage), "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (i.e. "the DEAD *IN* Christ" and the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [also *IN*Christ]--both aspects of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to whom this was addressed [recall again Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]).

Regarding the word "resurrection," I already showed in past posts:

--"[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" shows there is a SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only ONE point in time for it ('the resurrection OF LIFE' / the first of two named in that verse; whereas the other is known as 'the resurrection OF DAMNATION/JUDGMENT')

--the 2W are resurrected and ascend up into heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe" time-frame, at a DISTINCT time from when any others are resurrected... WHY IS THIS? They are humans as well. Why a different time-slot?

--Rev20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he having A PART [G3313] IN the resurrection the first"... it does not say, this is the ONLY point in time when it will have occurred... this is the last segment of its totality (b/f the MK age commences upon His "RETURN" here)

--Martha, Daniel, Job, and all OT saints already WELL-KNEW of the resurrection AT the last day [which is not "a singular 24-hr day," tho "resurrection" occurs at one point IN it, surely], this was no mystery to them, it WAS already disclosed to them; this is DISTINCT from what Paul was tasked with NOW disclosing (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [saints "in this present age [singular]"])



"The Last Day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" but a time-period of MUCH DURATION, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN it. I explained that in a previous post (where I pointed out Hosea 5:14-6:3 and also Exodus 31:13,17, etc).

So the text states "IN/AT the last day" rather than "ON" it, as though it consisted merely of "a singular 24-hr day," which it does not.
I also pointed out the DISTINCTION between John 6:39 [things] and 6:40 [persons], which is consistent in all other verses relating.

I also pointed out how the people IN HEAVEN in Rev5:9 are saying "hath redeemed US" and they are wearing "stephanos/crowns," that which Paul said he would be "awarded IN THAT DAY" and "not to him ONLY" (note: not the day of his DEATH). And they are shown sitting on "24 THRONES" and this is JUST BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening SEAL 1 (parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" and which Rev1:1 says the TIME-PERIOD pertaining to THIS [and the other JUDGMENTS] is to transpire "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and THAT is NOT in the same time period as "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" but is DISTINCT FROM it.)

We are exhorted to distinguish the things that differ, and it is said to be a good and right thing to be "CORRECTLY APPORTION[-ING] the word of truth"... when we do not do this, we only make one big pile of MISH-MASH of MUSH that is inaccurate and mars the picture.



The post you quoted of mine (and other related posts in this thread) has gone into SOME of the ways that 2Th2 has been misinterpreted so that what Paul is actually conveying, cannot be seen clearly for what it says, and that is the SEQUENCE [repeated 3x here, and identical sequence to 1Th4-5] and how that ONE THING must take place *FIRST* before "the DOTL" with its JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING over time, can be present upon the earth (WITH its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of some time! IOW, he is not "revealed" the moment he is "DESTROYED"... the time-period matches OTHER PASSAGES, both OT and NT).

Paul is not saying (v.2) don't let anyone convince you THE RAPTURE *is present [perfect indicative]*

Paul is not saying, don't let anyone convince you JESUS HIMSELF *is present [perfect indicative]*

Paul is not saying, don't let anyone convince you THE KINGDOM "age to come" *is present [perfect indicative]*

So, WHAT IS IT that Paul *IS* saying here in verse 2 ?? [bearing in mind their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they are ONGOINGLY ENDURING, per 2Th1:4... the CONTEXT and SETTING of this letter of Paul to them]

What makes you think the "rapture is the mystery" when he only mentions the one at the end of the world?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The original post makes it very easy to understand, the resurrection happens on the last day, then afterwards the rapture happens. God is not the author of confusion. This is a very simple doctrine if you do not have itching ears.

In my post above, I had put:

""The Last Day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" but a time-period of MUCH DURATION, with MUCH transpiring WITHIN it. I explained that in a previous post (where I pointed out Hosea 5:14-6:3 and also Exodus 31:13,17, etc)."


Have you considered the passage in Hosea 5:14 - 6:3 ?

What do the phrases "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" refer to (considering the POINT of REFERENCE that vv.14-15 supply, in that context)?

 

[azamzimtoti]

The original post makes it very easy to understand, the resurrection happens on the last day, then afterwards the rapture happens. God is not the author of confusion. This is a very simple doctrine if you do not have itching ears.

Nope. The resurrection and "rapture" are simultaneous.

(1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed)

(1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)

(1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What makes you think the "rapture is the mystery" when he only mentions the one at the end of the world?

Paul DOESN'T say [what he's referring to here] it is at the "end of the WORLD"... he doesn't say that at all, and is not even referring to the point in time that DANIEL [OT saint] will be resurrected, which is "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [the DAYS referred to in THAT context; i.e. the END of the trib years... aka "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" that JESUS spoke of in both Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 AND [His response in 2 CHPTS] to their "follow-up Q" of Him [LATER] regarding same, in Matt24:3... NOT "the end of the WORLD" which idea they would not even have thunk to ASK).

IOW, OT saints were NOT promised "RAPTURE" (it does NOT apply to them, and in no way pertains to them).

They were promised "resurrection ['to stand again on the earth']" and this is what will take place "AT/IN the Last Day" (i.e. FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK age)

 

[Dave-L]

Paul DOESN'T say [what he's referring to here] it is at the "end of the WORLD"... he doesn't say that at all, and is not even referring to the point in time that DANIEL [OT saint] will be resurrected, which is "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [the DAYS referred to in THAT context; i.e. the END of the trib years... aka "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" that JESUS spoke of in both Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 AND [His response in 2 CHPTS] to their "follow-up Q" of Him [LATER] regarding same, in Matt24:3... NOT "the end of the WORLD" which idea they would not even have thunk to ASK).

IOW, OT saints were NOT promised "RAPTURE" (it does NOT apply to them, and in no way pertains to them).

They were promised "resurrection ['to stand again on the earth']" and this is what will take place "AT/IN the Last Day" (i.e. FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK age)

Jesus places the rapture at the end of the world. Here it is spelled out.

The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/rapture-top-dogs-admit-no-proof-exists.190008/

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

The word "man" in this verse, is like saying "mankind" (those born naturally... not "saints"/"believers"/"the saved"/"the righteous"/"born-again"... but "man / mankind"...). It is connected with v.1, but not connected with what Job says (of himself) later in the same chpt, and later in chpt 19, verses 25-27 (about the SAVED / SAINTS).

So, for "man / mankind" [natural 'born-the-first-time' humans] this is true... unless they are "born again [/from above]" i.e. made righteous. So, apart from God... this is referring to "mankind" (as unsaved... ALL "the DEAD [/unsaved of all times]" who will stand before the GWTj, Rev20:11-15, the final carrying out of the sentence [i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22(23)], for those APART from Him).

IOW, they will NOT be "resurrected" to ENTER, ENJOY and EXIST in the [future] earthly MK age, as the "BLESSED" will be present to enjoy!

 

[Dave-L]

The word "man" in this verse, is like saying "mankind" (those born naturally... not "saints"/"believers"/"the saved"/"the righteous"/"born-again"... but "man / mankind"...). It is connected with v.1, but not connected with what Job says (of himself) later in the same chpt, and later in chpt 19, verses 25-27 (about the SAVED / SAINTS).

So, for "man / mankind" [natural 'born-the-first-time' humans] this is true... unless they are "born again [/from above]" i.e. made righteous. So, apart from God... this is referring to "mankind" (as unsaved... ALL "the DEAD [/unsaved of all times]" who will stand before the GWTj, Rev20:11-15, the final carrying out of the sentence [i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22(23)], for those APART from Him).

IOW, they will NOT be "resurrected" to ENTER, ENJOY and EXIST in the [future] earthly MK age, as the "BLESSED" will be present to enjoy!

Job spoke of his own resurrection on the last day. “And though after my skin worms destroy this body, Yet in my flesh shall I see God:” Job 19:26 (KJV 1900)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 Verse 17.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I will tell you why I included verse 16 in a moment.

The catching up together of those who are alive when the Lord returns, that is the rapture.
So we see there will indeed be a rapture. The controversy with the rapture is not a matter of whether it
is real or not. The controversy is over the timing.

Unfortunately the ministers of Satan have taken simple to understand scripture and twisted it
to deceive unlearned Christians. The ministers of Satan teach that the rapture happens before the Lord
returns at the very end.
They teach that Christians are getting a special get out of persecution free card to leave this world early.
This is completely wrong and I will show you why it is such a dangerous doctrine to believe.

Let's look at the verses again and see if they can give us any information regarding the timing of the rapture.
In verse 16 we see the Lord returns and at that time the dead in Christ shall rise first. This is important.
The dead in Christ rise first. Then going directly to the next words in verse 17 it says "then". Then meaning
after what just preceded. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

What does this mean?
This tells us the resurrection happens first and THEN the rapture happens.
Why is this important?
Because if we can figure out when the resurrection happens then we can know
exactly when the rapture happens because it takes place right after.

Thankfully God is not the author of confusion and has not left us without sound doctrine so that
we are not left in the dark concerning these things.
The Bible tells us 5 different times in the gospel of John when the resurrection takes place.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY.
Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

The reason that Satan's ministers have decided to teach this false timing rapture doctrine is because
scripture tells us the Antichrist must first come before the end.
If you are expecting the true messiah Jesus Christ to return before the very end to save
you from the persecution of the Antichrist and his wicked followers then you are actually going to get
the false messiah/Antichrist who comes to deceive the world into believing that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years since Christ came.
They are being martyred now, even openly in eastern countries. And we will continue to be martyred until the very end.
Few will survive to take part in the rapture. Nobody is getting an escape card in these last days.

Look, I agree with you about the rapture/resurrection timing.
But can you PLEASE dispense with the "The ministers of Satan" routine?

You've made it nearly impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

 

[Dino246]

Look, I agree with you about the rapture/resurrection timing.
But can you PLEASE dispense with the "The ministers of Satan" routine?

You've made it nearly impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

Fixed it for you.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Job spoke of his own resurrection on the last day. “And though after my skin worms destroy this body, Yet in my flesh shall I see God:” Job 19:26 (KJV 1900)

I already mentioned that... when I stated that Martha, Daniel and Job already WELL-KNEW of that "resurrection"; and Job says (in that reference I listed) that he [Job] knew that his Redeemer would stand on the earth at the end/hindermost/last day... but again, I've been saying that this is not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day"... and that Paul was not referring to that "already-well-known-[to-ALL-OT-saints]" fact, when he said, "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and then spoke specifically about "THIS corruptible" (the DEAD *IN* Christ) and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [those STILL-ALIVE, also *IN* Christ--the "ONE BODY"]) who will [both aspects/parts/segments] be changed in an instant and then be "caught UP/AWAY" [together at the same time] to the meeting of the Lord "IN THE AIR" ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" there, that is, "IN THE AIR")--this was NOT disclosed to OT saints because it does not pertain to them (read again Dan12:13 "and STAND IN THY LOT at the END of the DAYS [the days referred to in that context, i.e. the END of the trib--Daniel [OT saints] NOT promised "RAPTURE"... it/the RAPTURE is for a DISTINCT PURPOSE, to/for/about a DISTINCT *BODY*, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ONLY [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; see again Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence) ]).

So, I already stated that Job will stand again on the earth (i.e. be "resurrected") at the time when Jesus will "RETURN" to the earth (His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19) FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [READ AGAIN Job 19:25--and HE WILL!]

(at just the same time-slot that Hosea 5:14-6:3's "IN the THIRD DAY" is referring to... and Exodus 31:13,17's "seventh day" ['SIGN'] is referring to, and Hebrew 4:9's "sabbatismos" is referring to, etc, etc, and which ONE THING Peter said we should not be "ignorant of" [when we compare his 2Pet3:10-12 with BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35, rather than extracting ONLY verse 34:4 from its entire CONTEXT, when ascertaining what Peter is speaking of there]. These are not references that speak of "our RAPTURE" but of His "RETURN" to the earth, see. But the time-period which leads UP TO and PRECEDES that point in time [His "RETURN" to the earth] will be filled with "JUDGMENTS" [from the point when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL way back at the BEGINNING of the "future" section of Rev ("future"=Rev4:1/1:19c thru Rev19), which Rev1:1 says will come to pass "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--not transpire over the course of the some-2000 yrs, as the Historicist viewpoint has it; nor "immediately [adverb]" as the Preterist viewpoint has it])

 

[Ceviche]

I would like to encourage everybody to read the Bible without the pre rap or post rap mindset, but to read all passages in it's context.
Bible and Bible alone. Then it will become more clear the difference between Tribulation, Great Tribulation and wrath. And please, we should be respectful of every opinion, if we are defensive that's mean we are not open to learn, but just to win.

 

[cv5]

(Part 1)



First of all, it is not a "get out of persecution free card." What it is, is a "get out of the time of God's wrath free card," which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And the reason for this, is because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Therefore, since God's wrath has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. As it is written, "we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath."

"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you 'out of' the hour of trial that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

Jesus promise to keep believers "out of" the our of trial means that we will not even be exposed to it. You along with others continue to make the same mistakes, not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness in opposition to God's direct wrath upon the inhabitants of the whole earth. For example, the persecution that the apostles and the first century church suffered was not a result of God's wrath but they suffered the common trials and tribulations that the Lord said we would suffer because of our faith. You are just another who is not recognizing the difference between the two. So, believers are not getting out of persecution, but will be removed prior to God's wrath which will be against a Christ rejecting world.

"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

"But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping, meaning "you brothers will escape" that time of destruction just as Paul described in the previous chapter where the living will be changed and caught up.

And secondly, you also don't understand that the resurrection and the gathering of the church is a separate event in opposition to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age which takes place after God's wrath



Wrong again!

Just fyi, the first resurrection is made up of stages or phases:

* Jesus the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Cor.15:22)

* The church at his coming including the gathering of those still alive (1 Thess.4:13-18)

* The Male Child aka the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints and OT saints (Rev.20:6-8)

So you see, there are different stages to the first resurrection, with the church being next. After that and during the middle of the seven years, the Male Child which is a collective name representing the 144,000 will be caught up to God's throne. Then during that same time the two witnesses will be resurrected and ascend into heaven. After the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the great tribulation saints who will have died during that time, will be resurrected, as well as the OT saints.

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. By the way, the term "last day" is not referring to a specific day, but is referring to the last day time period. There is no way that all of the groups mentioned above can be resurrected at the same time. The "first resurrection" is in direct opposition to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, which consists of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.

(Continued)

Also there are Matt 27:52 early risers! Many resurrection phases, at various times.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Also there are Matt 27:52 early risers! Many resurrection phases, at various times.

Hello CV5!

Yes, they were a group that was Resurrected after Jesus resurrection. However, my personal belief is that they did not resurrect immortal and glorified, but were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus, i.e. brought back from the dead only to die again. The resurrection that I was referring to in the previous post is regarding to those who rise in their immortal and glorified bodies of which the church is next. The reason I say that they were resurrected in their mortal bodies and then died again, is because of the following scripture:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Christ is being used as an example of the first fruits of the those who are resurrected and His resurrection was immortal and glorified. Therefore I believe that the resurrection in question will be those who will also be resurrected immortal and glorified. Also, since the Lord hasn't appeared yet, the scripture couldn't have been referring to those OT saints who came out of their graves and therefore must be referring to the church. I believe that just as Lazarus was raised in his mortal body and died again, so also those OT saints who came out of their graves did so in their same immortal bodies and also died again.