The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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Jul 23, 2018
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You crossed the line by claiming that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.
Uh, no, i did not call you "one sad mess", or call Noahs ark a spaceship.
But lack of context in quoting me brings into those false dynamics where you just attack for no reason at all

Please try and stay within reason.

Try and post something relevant

But i can see where believers going to heaven unravels you.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Great question. I read Rev 20 very carefully and know that there will be a literal 1,000 year Millennial reign by the King of kings, at the end of which, will be the final battle of Gog and Magog, since Satan will be loosened at the end to deceive the nations again. Every unbleliever will be killed. And then raised to life to attend the GWT judgment. After which they all will be cast into the LoF. So ends the Millennial reign on the present earth. Ch 21 opens with the present heaven and earth "passing away" and there will be a new heaven and earth. This would be what is called the eternal state. iow, your Timex won't work. Time won't exist.

Speaking of the Millennium, who do you think populates the earth during that time?
""" Every unbleliever will be killed."""

Verse?

We need a verse that says " no living stood before God at the gwtj"
 
Feb 26, 2022
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Great verses, however it certainly is not Calvin's sovereignty described. God will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. God sets the parameters not man. If man wants mercy from God, man has to get it God's way.
Your comment doesnt make sense.
 
Feb 26, 2022
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All words have a context. Please don't kid yourself.
You have been invited to show why when Jesus says the resurrection will come at the last day , 4 times in John 6 , His audience then, and now should NOT take Him at face value.
You dont seem to be in much of a hurry to get that done.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Do you know it was that high in Noah's time ?
Prove it was not.
You are going there?

Really?
That is material that the evolutionist used.

Lol
They have found seashells in the tops of mountains, testifying that the waters covered the mountains.
 
Feb 26, 2022
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Tired of your 'cat and mouse' games. JUST TELL me the timing that Jesus gave, since you think I have ignored it. Then I will respond.

If I have ignored it, I will acknowledge that.


Who would argue with this?

I said:
I see. Jesus refuted all of my posts, all of which have verses that support what I believe.

Why are you so dense? I've already given examples of different 'last days". Was I unclear or something?

The last day in which the resurrection occurs is when Jesus Christ comes at the Second Advent, which has been already proven over and over. So, what's the problem?
You have been invited to show why when Jesus says the resurrection will come at the last day , 4 times in John 6 , His audience then, and now should NOT take Him at face value.
You dont seem to be in much of a hurry to get that done.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Your comment doesnt make sense.
Calvin states that everything that occurs has been ordained by a sovereign God. That's hogwash. God reigns supreme over his creation, but has left man responsible for his own actions.

God has provided the means to receive his mercy...through Jesus Christ. Man cannot will it or run it any other way. If man wants God's mercy, then man better call upon the Lord Jesus.
 
Feb 26, 2022
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Calvin states that everything that occurs has been ordained by a sovereign God. That's hogwash. God reigns supreme over his creation, but has left man responsible for his own actions.

God has provided the means to receive his mercy...through Jesus Christ. Man cannot will it or run it any other way. If man wants God's mercy, then man better call upon the Lord Jesus.
Quote Calvin saying a man is NOT responsible for his own actions.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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It just dawned on me.

There are members here, that no doubt believe, the flood was local.

That could why they are so unhinged that the waters were over 3 miles deep with the ark floating on them so high into the heavens.

Error spawning error.
Unhinged is the claim that the Great Flood has anything to do with a pretrib trip to heaven!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, what an opportunity!!!

If you are not "posting lies", then PROVE your claim that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven. With a verse.
Anybody can get in the folly with you.
Show me a verse that specifically says they don't.
Just amazing. You CAN'T prove your own claim so you have to defect to silliness.

So easy to do what you do.
What is real easy to do is pointing out that there are NO verses that have Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Proves zero.
Proves everything. You have NO evidence.

Show me a verse that says horses breath in heaven
Show me one where it says the elders wear sandals.
Show me one where it says Jesus scaled his fish before cooking them.
Show me the verse where it says Jesus cleaned his teeth.
Show me a verse that has Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That's the issue. Not your silliness.

Your deal is a dog and pony show.
No, I quote verses that SAY what I believe, unlike yourself.

" prove a negative"
"prove a negative"
" prove a negative"
" prove a negative"
" nowhere on the tree does it say "tree"...see, it ain't a tree"
How come you can't "prove a positive".

btw, you really are having a difficult time understanding the issue here. I've never asked you to prove a negative.

I HAVE asked you to "prove a positive". iow, If Jesus will be taking glorified believers to heaven, then prove it clearly. With Scripture.

Pure folly.
That would be your own theory. Totally unsupported by Scripture.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
You crossed the line by claiming that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven.
Uh, no, i did not call you "one sad mess", or call Noahs ark a spaceship.
I never said you did. Why do you insist on these total distractions?

But lack of context in quoting me brings into those false dynamics where you just attack for no reason at all

Please try and stay within reason.
I'm full of reason. I have verses that SAY what I believe. Why don't you JOIN ME with reason? All you've done is make up a bunch of stuff.

Try and post something relevant
Since most of my posts are full of verses, I guess you view the Bible is irrelevant.

But that would surely make sense because of what you believe, which the Bible doesn't say anything about.

But i can see where believers going to heaven unravels you.
I'm not unravelled by anything you or anyone else posts. Why would I be bothered by what you make up/believe? I'm not responsible for you or your thoughts. Only you are.

All I can do is quote verses that SAY what I believe, which I've done, over and over.
 
Feb 26, 2022
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Calvin states that everything that occurs has been ordained by a sovereign God. That's hogwash. God reigns supreme over his creation, but has left man responsible for his own actions.

God has provided the means to receive his mercy...through Jesus Christ. Man cannot will it or run it any other way. If man wants God's mercy, then man better call upon the Lord Jesus.
'It is not sufficient for us to be once called by the Lord unless we live as new creatures.'

Sounds like personal responsibilty to me.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Quote Calvin saying a man is NOT responsible for his own actions.
The Roman Catholic writes:

John Calvin writes: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” (Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121, emphasis mine)

John Calvin explains: “God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.20, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the salvation or the destruction of men depends on His free election.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, p.203, emphasis mine)
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Great question. I read Rev 20 very carefully and know that there will be a literal 1,000 year Millennial reign by the King of kings, at the end of which, will be the final battle of Gog and Magog, since Satan will be loosened at the end to deceive the nations again. Every unbleliever will be killed. And then raised to life to attend the GWT judgment. After which they all will be cast into the LoF. So ends the Millennial reign on the present earth. Ch 21 opens with the present heaven and earth "passing away" and there will be a new heaven and earth. This would be what is called the eternal state. iow, your Timex won't work. Time won't exist.

Speaking of the Millennium, who do you think populates the earth during that time?
""" Every unbleliever will be killed."""

Verse?
Sure. Since you seem very unfamiliar with Rev 20 and have even denied what v.5 says very clearly.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

v.8 shows that "the nations" will be deceived. Just what I had posted. It doesn't say "most of the nations" or "some of the nations". It says "the nations". Most reasonable and rational people would easily understand this as the whole world. And we know that Satan has already "deceived the whole world" anyway. So this is another opportunity to do so again. Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

If you have a disagreement with this, then please explain how and why I am wrong.

v.9 shows who will be burned up: "them". That refers back to v.8 and "the nations".

So, what happens after v.10? The GWT judgment. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand who will be at the GWT judgment.

We need a verse that says " no living stood before God at the gwtj"
Why do you think such childish thoughts?

We HAVE verses that clearly teach that all the dead unbelievers will be in a resurrection, only this time in their mortal bodies, because they won't get glorified bodies.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

We know WHEN the resurrection of the saved will occur. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us "when He comes". So, when do you think the resurrection of the unsaved will occur?

Keep in mind Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection.

So, since there will be TWO resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, and the saved will be resurrected first, when do you think the unsaved will be resurrected?

Rev 20-
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

v.12 and 13 show that all the unbelieving dead are gathered before the GWT. And "standing", no less. So we KNOW they risen from the dead. Dead people cannot "stand". They can only lie down.

v.14 shows where all these unsaved will end up; the LoF.

Question: do you know why the LoF is described as the "second death"?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think that making up words, as you have done, and forcing them into Scripture is somehow different?
In EVERY post where you claim there will be a pretrib rapture, with trip to heaven.

You made the accusation.
Because you MADE UP the claim.

Post it or apologize
Why apologize for telling the truth?

I will absolutely apologize for making a mistake in any claims I lodge towards you.

But, so far, I haven't made any mistake. I've pointed out your errors about what is called the "rapture".

All it is, from 1 Thess 4 is when living believers receive their glorified bodies, and thereafter "will be with the Lord forever".

Nothing about a trip to heaven. Anywhere in Scripture.
 
Feb 26, 2022
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The Roman Catholic writes:

John Calvin writes: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” (Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121, emphasis mine)

John Calvin explains: “God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.20, emphasis mine)

Calvin writes: “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the salvation or the destruction of men depends on His free election.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, p.203, emphasis mine)
But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance. For our minds are always prurient, and a doubt often creeps in, why he does not come sooner. But when we hear that the Lord, in delaying, shews a concern for our salvation, and that he defers the time because he has a care for us, there is no reason why we should any longer complain of tardiness. He is tardy who allows an occasion to pass by through slothfulness: there is nothing like this in God, who in the best manner regulates time to promote our salvation. And as to the duration of the whole world, we must think exactly the same as of the life of every individual; for God by prolonging time to each, sustains him that he may repent. In the like manner he does not hasten the end of the world, in order to give to all time to repent.

This is a very necessary admonition, so that we may learn to employ time aright, as we shall otherwise suffer a just punishment for our idleness.


Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.
But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.


Calvin on II Pete 3
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You have been invited to show why when Jesus says the resurrection will come at the last day , 4 times in John 6 , His audience then, and now should NOT take Him at face value.
You dont seem to be in much of a hurry to get that done.
Obviously you don't read my posts, or read them carefully.

i've already addressed that silly question.

I SAID that everything Jesus said should be taken at face value. Which shows that your question is nutty.
 
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