The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[kleronomos]

Everywhere throughout Scripture, when the phrases "IN THAT DAY" and "the Day of the Lord" are used in the SAME context (as they are here in chpt 1 and in chpt 2) they refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD.

Prove to me otherwise.

Why would I move forward and prove yet something else to you. You won't believe it either. NOW the pre trib rapture theory wants me to believe that 'a falling away' IS A PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH TO HEAVEN? SERIOUSLY you don't see that as adding to the words of GOD or teaching a doctrine OUT OF NOTHING WRITTEN BY GODS WORDS just conjecture on your part.

Have you ever read the OT?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^

NOW the pre trib rapture theory wants me to believe that 'a falling away' IS A PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH TO HEAVEN? SERIOUSLY you don't see that as adding to the words of GOD or teaching a doctrine OUT OF NOTHING WRITTEN BY GODS WORDS just conjecture on your part.

The Greeks had a word for "fall" [to fall - pipto]... the word in verse 3 (under present discussion) is NOT THAT WORD.

"a falling away" is not an accurate translation (and that translation leaves off "the definite article ['THE']" entirely, which IS and SHOULD BE in the text [but isn't translated], sad to say).

["THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"... "[a] standing away-from [away-from a previous standing]" aka movement (just as in 3x REPEATED elsewhere in this very context)]

In addition to what I put in that post ^ above (in this thread), here's another point on that which I'd put in a different thread:

Post #83 - https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4661711

[quoting that post]


[quoting excerpt from article by Thomas Ice]


"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy.” This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism."

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read


[end quoting; bold mine]


[end quoting that post]


__________



Again, the [Grk] text does not state "A FALLING AWAY" [Grk: pipto... no.]

 

[Evmur]

We see 2 separate comings in Mat 24.
Postribbers work hard to try and make " before the flood" into "after the flood"

Their job is a hard one.
That is why they simply omit it, as you just demonstrated.

The flood is God's righteous judgement upon the wicked, nobody believes [or should believe] that the church will be here for God's wrath.

Tribulation is not God's wrath, it is man's persecution. "In the world you will have tribulation ... "

The great tribulation is the great end - times persecution Jesus warned us about.

 

[Evmur]

Rev 19:7-9......Marriage supper.

That's right [you are getting there] between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the living and the dead unto judgement. 1, 000 years apart.

Notice that word "the LIVING and the dead" take good note.

This is the Great White Throne judgement and it is the Sheep and Goats judgement of Matthew 25.

The church simply does not figure in this judgement except Paul says God will bring us with Him. The church is neither the sheep who are rewarded nor are they the goats who go into eternal punishment. This is the point where the wise virgins seek and find entrance and the foolish are denied.

I know, I know. it goes against the grain of everything we have been told. I count myself orthodox in all doctrines, but I cannot be orthodox here. The idea that everyone who is raised in the final resurrection unto judgement will be damned just cannot be maintained in scripture. This black and white view comes from The Roman Catholics. They believed that the world was to be divided into Catholic or Barbarian. You were Catholic or you were damned.

This has been passed down through the centuries and passed over into Protestantism. The sheeps are the church, the goats are everyone else. How can it be so? The church has been reigning with Christ during the 1, 000 years they are not judged.

The clue is that the sheep are rewarded for the good deeds they have done. We are not saved by good deeds.

So who are these sheeps? they are "the meek shall inherit the earth"

 

[Absolutely]

Nope.

Even the source you originally had quoted (but left out, in a previous post here in this latter thread) has "WINER" saying:


[quoting]

"A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament: Regarded as a Sure Basis" by George Benedikt Winer (pgs 24-25):

"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"



[found on pgs 24-25]

-- https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true

[end quoting; underline mine]


He is saying that it is the SAME WORD... one earlier, the other later... but the SAME WORD.

ONE BASIC MEANING (of that ONE / SAME WORD).




You simply do not want to believe "WINER" (which states the same point that L&S-1871 ALSO says) and want to instead stick with your limited-scope "Strong's Concordance".


Believe what you wish, ewq. (INJECT "FROM THE FAITH" INTO this word if you so wish,... but it AIN'T THERE!)

Just try to stop mis-respresenting your opponents' viewpoints.

Yes
It literally says " from standing"
Or departure.
"From the faith" is added

 

[Absolutely]

The flood is God's righteous judgement upon the wicked, nobody believes [or should believe] that the church will be here for God's wrath.

Tribulation is not God's wrath, it is man's persecution. "In the world you will have tribulation ... "

The great tribulation is the great end - times persecution Jesus warned us about.

Jesus used lot and noah.
Therefore in order to insert a trib vs wrath dynamic we would need to see devastation as in the 4 horsemen etc PRIOR to the flood.

No such dynamic exists.
Neither is there any component of a mark or buying/selling restricted.
We would also need mass martyrdom with a ac type figurev demanding worship.

But no....the ONLY position that fits is pretrib rapture.
Normal life
Noah and lot taken
Judgement.

Exactly like the pretrib rapture.

Act 1 is in perfect harmony also, and same harmony in the virgin parable.

 

[Absolutely]

Verse 1 say Jesus standing on mountain Zion, is Jesus standing on mountain zion? If so no gt, how ac dare kill Christian in front of Jesus?

There are 2 mt zions
One in heaven
One on the earth.
If you read it again you will see they are in heaven.

 

[Absolutely]

That is only if you don't believe that THE RANSOM WAS PAID. I do.

I believe the dead WERE RAISED and Christ was raised because if the dead don't rise, then the dead Christ didn't rise either.

If the dead WILL BE RISING IN THE FUTURE, then Christ will ALSO BE RISING IN THE FUTURE/Do you see the problem?


But since I believe the RANSOM was paid and death defeated, I also believe in INSTANT pass through death single person raptures for the saved.


John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

CAUTION I personally believe that to return, Christ has got to come back, and when Christ comes back ,He is returning. I know, silly me to use such common sense. BUT since I use that kind of reasoning, that OF COURSE makes me ALSO believe that FOLLOW ME means FOLLOW ME and to go where He went MEANS go where He went and it DOESN'T MEAN 'WAIT UNTIL HE RETURNS FOR EVERYONE ALL AT ONCE TO START RULE and REIGN ON THE EARTH'.


John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

CAUTION Again, SILLY ME, as GOES means GOES and doesn't mean RETURNS

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

CAUTION I must be stark raving mad because here again, I will come and receive you so that you can be where I am DOESN'T MEAN WAIT UNTIL THE FUTURE AND I WILL COME TO BE WHERE YOU ARE.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

WHY WOULD ANYONE NEED TO KNOW THE WAY TO A PLACE THEY AREN'T GOING?

" we which are alive and remain will be caught up TO MEET THOSE RESURRECTED in the air..."

 

[Absolutely]

YES, BUT THE JEW IS NOT ISRAEL. The Jew is of the tribe of Judah or a resident of Judea correct?

both Jesus and paul just called the hebrews " jews"

Yes, the jew is indeed israel.

 

[Absolutely]

That's right [you are getting there] between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the living and the dead unto judgement. 1, 000 years apart.

Notice that word "the LIVING and the dead" take good note.

This is the Great White Throne judgement and it is the Sheep and Goats judgement of Matthew 25.

The church simply does not figure in this judgement except Paul says God will bring us with Him. The church is neither the sheep who are rewarded nor are they the goats who go into eternal punishment. This is the point where the wise virgins seek and find entrance and the foolish are denied.

I know, I know. it goes against the grain of everything we have been told. I count myself orthodox in all doctrines, but I cannot be orthodox here. The idea that everyone who is raised in the final resurrection unto judgement will be damned just cannot be maintained in scripture. This black and white view comes from The Roman Catholics. They believed that the world was to be divided into Catholic or Barbarian. You were Catholic or you were damned.

This has been passed down through the centuries and passed over into Protestantism. The sheeps are the church, the goats are everyone else. How can it be so? The church has been reigning with Christ during the 1, 000 years they are not judged.

The clue is that the sheep are rewarded for the good deeds they have done. We are not saved by good deeds.

So who are these sheeps? they are "the meek shall inherit the earth"

"""The church is neither the sheep who are rewarded nor are they the goats who go into eternal punishment. This is the point where the wise virgins seek and find entrance and the foolish are denied."""
The wise go into the marriage and the door is shut.
Heaven.
There is no marriage at the gwtj.

 

[Absolutely]

The flood is God's righteous judgement upon the wicked, nobody believes [or should believe] that the church will be here for God's wrath.

Tribulation is not God's wrath, it is man's persecution. "In the world you will have tribulation ... "

The great tribulation is the great end - times persecution Jesus warned us about.

"""The great tribulation is the great end - times persecution Jesus warned us about."""

Complete with the wrath of the 4 horsemen sent from heaven.
They are not "mans persecution"

 

[Absolutely]

What do we notice? THAT EVIL is running rampant AND THEN comes judgment. Teachers don't give the out the grades BEFORE the test is given.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;

THAT THEY MIGHT GO AND FALL BACKWARD AND BE BROKEN AND TAKEN.




AS A THIEF in the night MEANING DARKNESS is already abounding upon the planet when Christ returns. THE FIRST ONE TAKEN IS TAKEN IN THE NIGHT.

When Christ RETURNS IT IS BRIGHTNESS so bright the sun seems dim.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING

9 Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


The coming of the Lord is AFTER the workings of Satan, AFTER the falling away, AFTER the man of sin revealed.



IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE FOR CHRIST TO COME BACK AND IT NOT TO BE A 'RETURN' OR TO 'RETURN' AND IT NOT BE BY COMING?


WHO would put forth such confusion? What would it take to make anyone believe such a thing IF IT WEREN'T ABOUT THE WORDS OF GOD?



NO MENTION OF ANYONE TAKEN POST JUDGMENT? How can this be put forth?

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


THE LORD coming/returning to the earth for the day of vengeance, to set up the kingdom that was rejected the first time He came.


......................................and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

That entire post is on the assumption of a postrib rapture while omitting the pretrib rapture verses.

 

[kleronomos]

Nope.

It was also known (in that same era) to be used in "the departing of a fever" or "the departure of a boat from a dock" (i.e. physical / geographical "departures").

I believe I made a post about how it was used in a writing of Josephus (along these same lines).



[Paul was not an ignoramus ]




"apostasia / apostasis" at its most basic definition MEANS "departure" (and CONTEXT determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant; the "definite article" used with it in THIS context points BACK to something PREVIOUSLY STATED in the text... and a definte one ALREADY KNOWN unto the recipients of the letter)

apostasia

both Jesus and paul just called the hebrews " jews"

Yes, the jew is indeed israel.

There was no Israel at the time, they were under Roman rule and had BEEN ALLOWED to return to build the temple. Israel had those of the tribe of Judah come out of captivity to build it. So it was the Jews of the tribe of Judah (with Ben and Levi) but it wasn't Israel anymore.

 

[kleronomos]

" we which are alive and remain will be caught up TO MEET THOSE RESURRECTED in the air..."

If by 'resurrected' you mean what is written then I agree.

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[kleronomos]

^





In addition to what I put in that post ^ above (in this thread), here's another point on that which I'd put in a different thread:

Post #83 - https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4661711

[quoting that post]


[quoting excerpt from article by Thomas Ice]


"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy.” This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism."

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read


[end quoting; bold mine]


[end quoting that post]


__________



Again, the [Grk] text does not state "A FALLING AWAY" [Grk: pipto... no.]

SO NOW YOUR NEW POSITION IS PAUL WAS CORRECTING THE FIRST LETTER ABOUT GATHERING TO THE LORD BY WRITING THE NEXT LETTER TO SAY


Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there FIRST come A GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

IS THIS IDEA REALLY BEING CONSIDERED TO BE TRUTH? WHEN DID THIS COME ABOUT?

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


1 Peter 4
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
WELL, except for the pre trib raptured church

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
WELL, except for the pre trib raptured church

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, HAPPY ARE YE FOR THE SPIRIT OF GLORY AND OF GOD resteth upon you on their part He is evil spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.

But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed but let him glorify God on this behalf.

(WELL, except for the pre trib raptured church, no picking up the cross and following Christ for them, THERE WILL BE NO PROVING OF THE CHURCHES and no judgement they say, because they say that is for the Jew only part of Gods people).

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[kleronomos]

DOESN'T ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN PRE TRIB RAPTURE SEE A NEED FOR ANY OF THESE TO BE PROVED BEFORE BEING BROUGHT TO THE CONSUMING FIRE?



Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

SHOULDN'T THIS BE TESTED? PROVED? OR SHOULD IT JUST GO TO HEAVEN AS IS? IS THIS WHAT THE 'BRIDE OF CHRIST' SHOULD LOOK LIKE? JUST ASKING WHY THIS ISN'T BEING ASKED

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

AND HERE I THOUGHT HE WAS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

SHOULDN'T THIS BE TESTED? PROVED? OR SHOULD IT JUST GO TO HEAVEN AS IS? IS THIS WHAT THE 'BRIDE OF CHRIST' SHOULD LOOK LIKE? JUST ASKING WHY THIS ISN'T BEING ASKED


Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

SHOULDN'T THIS BE TESTED? PROVED? OR SHOULD IT JUST GO TO HEAVEN AS IS? IS THIS WHAT THE 'BRIDE OF CHRIST' SHOULD LOOK LIKE? JUST ASKING WHY THIS ISN'T BEING ASKED


Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THIS SHOULD GO TO HEAVEN WITHOUT SOME SORT OF TEST TO SEE IF IT HAS BEEN REMEDIED

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

SHOULDN'T THIS BE TESTED? PROVED? OR SHOULD IT JUST GO TO HEAVEN AS IS? IS THIS WHAT THE 'BRIDE OF CHRIST' SHOULD LOOK LIKE? JUST ASKING WHY THIS ISN'T BEING ASKED


Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

SHOULDN'T THIS BE TESTED? PROVED? OR SHOULD IT JUST GO TO HEAVEN AS IS? IS THIS WHAT THE 'BRIDE OF CHRIST' SHOULD LOOK LIKE? JUST ASKING WHY THIS ISN'T BEING ASKED



Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[cv5]

That's right [you are getting there] between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the living and the dead unto judgement. 1, 000 years apart.

Notice that word "the LIVING and the dead" take good note.

This is the Great White Throne judgement and it is the Sheep and Goats judgement of Matthew 25.

The church simply does not figure in this judgement except Paul says God will bring us with Him. The church is neither the sheep who are rewarded nor are they the goats who go into eternal punishment. This is the point where the wise virgins seek and find entrance and the foolish are denied.

I know, I know. it goes against the grain of everything we have been told. I count myself orthodox in all doctrines, but I cannot be orthodox here. The idea that everyone who is raised in the final resurrection unto judgement will be damned just cannot be maintained in scripture. This black and white view comes from The Roman Catholics. They believed that the world was to be divided into Catholic or Barbarian. You were Catholic or you were damned.

This has been passed down through the centuries and passed over into Protestantism. The sheeps are the church, the goats are everyone else. How can it be so? The church has been reigning with Christ during the 1, 000 years they are not judged.

The clue is that the sheep are rewarded for the good deeds they have done. We are not saved by good deeds.

So who are these sheeps? they are "the meek shall inherit the earth"

"who are these sheeps"
Matt 25:34-40.....these sheep are they which supported and provided for God's preachers and proclaimers (probably the 144,000 and their entourage), and persecuted fleeing Israelites (My brethren), during the time of the Tribulation/Great Tribulation.

 

[cv5]

The flood is God's righteous judgement upon the wicked, nobody believes [or should believe] that the church will be here for God's wrath.

Tribulation is not God's wrath, it is man's persecution. "In the world you will have tribulation ... "

The great tribulation is the great end - times persecution Jesus warned us about.

In the book of Revelation, 11 times it is stated that Daniels 70th week aka the tribulation/great tribulation is specified as God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

SO NOW YOUR NEW POSITION IS PAUL WAS CORRECTING THE FIRST LETTER ABOUT GATHERING TO THE LORD BY WRITING THE NEXT LETTER TO SAY
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ["as that the DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"]
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there FIRST come A GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM , and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

[changed the colors to show what you SKIPPED BACK OVER and PAST!!]

Verse 3a's "that day" refers back to VERSE 2's Subject (in RED)... NOT back to [Paul's] VERSE 1's Subject






Paul's two letters are IN PERFECT AGREEMENT with each other (recall, I said in 1Th5:2-3 Paul says "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL--Jesus had already SPOKEN OF THOSE VERY "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which by the way are EQUIVALENT the SEALS which take place at the START of the "7 yrs" [not commencing at their END!!]; Matt24:4/Mk13:5's "A CERTAIN ONE" [bringing deception] = Rev6:2 = 2Th2:9a[8a] "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT...")

 

[cv5]

apostasia



There was no Israel at the time, they were under Roman rule and had BEEN ALLOWED to return to build the temple. Israel had those of the tribe of Judah come out of captivity to build it. So it was the Jews of the tribe of Judah (with Ben and Levi) but it wasn't Israel anymore.

Where in the world are you getting these crazy ideas from?