The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
Nowhere, do we see where God removed His People from Earth to avoid Tribulation.

1. Noah, had to build an Ark and board the Ark, God [did not miraculously remove Noah from the Flood] but made him go through it

2. Lot, God did not Miraculously remove Him, Lot was given specific Orders he had to Obey to survive

3. God made Moses face Pharaoh and go through the Same Plagues as Egypt

4. Isaiah, did not escape being cut into half

5. Shadrach-Meshach-Abednego, did not Escape the Furnace and had to be tossed into it.

6. Daniel, had to face the Lions

7. The Apostles, did not escape torture and horrendous death [except one because he Received the Apocalypse]


So, why do us GENTILES, who are Grafted into the Fold, believe we will escape?

Denial, is why!

Apples to oranges.

Because the Bible 1611 KJV edition...says so. The rapture has two reasons....to save the born again believers from trib 's. savagery and a method to get us from this physical life body....to the spiritual life and body.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,999
4,311
113
Yes, I do know this.

And I've addressed that very thing in many past posts:

[briefly here]

1) vv.2-3 = the 70ad events (like JESUS said in the other Olivet Discourse accounts, ALSO in Matt22:7, ALSO in Lk21:12-24a [which is where the response to THIS Q (re: "these things") is RECORDED], ALSO in Luke 19:42-44-what He said on the VERY DAY that the "69 Weeks" were CONCLUDED, ON Palm Sunday, WHEN He DID the Zech9:9 thing and SAID the Lk19:42-44 thing... both covering the SUBJECT of "the city / Jerusalem"... the Subect ALSO of the "70 WEEKS" prophecy in Dan9:24-27 which is said to be [the time-prophecy] "DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel] people AND UPON thy [Daniel's] holy city"... the very thing that prophecy is about);

2) "and of thy coming" (every reference in this Olivet Discourse, TO THAT "coming," refers to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH" = "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / etc" refers to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH designation, to judge [/govern] and TO REIGN (not to "our Rapture");

3) "and of the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]"... which I pointed out was a Q BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the ANGELS will "REAP" (gather OUT all things that OFFEND... "collect ye FIRST the TARES"... which is the OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture" event!);
Jesus had already told them of "the AGE [SINGULAR] TO COME" which they CORRECTLY *understood* to be what WE NOW call the earthly MK age (1000 yrs) they'd been promised[!];
At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING re: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"...
...His Subject in and throughout His Olivet Discourse (BESIDES the 12 or so verses in Lk21:12-24a_, covering "the 70ad events," which verse 12 states must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of BPs [which are "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11" SAME EVENTS!-"the BoBPs"... but v.12 is saying the 70ad events must come BEFORE THOSE!]);



So YES, Jesus ANSWERS *THIS* question TOO...

Thus He answers ALL THREE QUESTIONS

(it is the "70ad events" [under pt. 1 above ^ ] which are RECORDED in Lk21:12-24a,b ALONE [in the Olivet Discourse, not that He doesn't cover it elsewhere ALSO, as I showed]... Everything ELSE in the Olivet Discourse is what STARTS WITH "THE BEGINNING of BIRTH PANGS" [kicking off that future time-period] which are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS, which Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c says are "things which MUST COME TO PASS IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase used in Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [noun]" and in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]"(not slated YET to have take place)... NOT unfold over the course of some 2000 years, as the "Historicits" suggest of the Book of Rev).




I've presented my case. May the readers judge.

You are free to believe as you see it.




[didn't mean to BOLD so much of this... OOPS!]
NO problem, I like your response and I appreciate it.

Thank you ,

CS1
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,983
1,261
113
You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV simply state "THE Departure"? Correct?

Yes, it is still a religious departure ie: Apostasy.

You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV are based on manuscripts that have the Greek word Apostasia which means Apostasy?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,875
2,111
113
NO problem, I like your response and I appreciate it.
Thank you ,
CS1
Thank you for your kind response. = )



____________

For the readers' sakes: I had forgotten to FINISH a SENTENCE, here:

...His Subject in and throughout His Olivet Discourse (BESIDES the 12 or so verses in Lk21:12-24a_, covering "the 70ad events," which verse 12 states must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of BPs [which are "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11" SAME EVENTS!-"the BoBPs"... but v.12 is saying the 70ad events must come BEFORE THOSE!] is ALL ABOUT His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age;
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,570
8,110
113
Considering the Translators of the KJV Bible admitted they were not familiar with Koine Greek, but Classical, they literally Hellenized the KJV New Testament. So, it pays to search the closest thing to Koine Greek Translation and I did.
Evidently, the NAB is a Roman Catholic translation. Are you a RC?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,875
2,111
113
EDIT (again... ugh): For the readers' sakes: I had forgotten to FINISH a SENTENCE, here:

...His Subject in and throughout His Olivet Discourse (BESIDES the 12 or so verses in Lk21:12-24a_, covering "the 70ad events," which verse 12 states must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of BPs [which are "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11" SAME EVENTS!-"the BoBPs"... but v.12 is saying the 70ad events must come BEFORE THOSE!] is ALL ABOUT His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age;

... and the specific, future, LIMITED time-period that LEADS UP TO that (aka the 7 TRIB yrs [SEALS / BEGINNING of BPs and what FOLLOWS those WITHIN THAT SPECIFIC TIME-PERIOD; i.e. when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Rev5:6, Isa3:13, etc) at the START of the 7 Trib yrs, by His OPENING the FIRST SEAL--yet future])
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,570
8,110
113
Yes, it is still a religious departure ie: Apostasy.

You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV are based on manuscripts that have the Greek word Apostasia which means Apostasy?
Yes and no.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,875
2,111
113

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,570
8,110
113
I disagree Matthew chapter 24 covers three things asked of Jesus by the disciples, THree.

Mathre 24:3

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
  1. “Tell us, when will these things be? And
  2. what will be the sign of Your coming,
  3. and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered them all and you must also take what Jesus said in Mark and Luke on this topic too. I am not going to go into it again as I am not trying to have you agree with me I can careless. Just know insulting those you disagree with or calling them false will not help your cause. I'm sure you did not know Jesus was asked this three qestion in Matthew chapter 24, because if you did then you would know the context of all that he said. Jesus spoke of the present, the soon coming, and the future event leading to the end of the age.
I am done with you too :). Please continue to scoff :)
The Church is no longer on the earth by Rev 4:1.....

"Come up here....."
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,999
4,311
113
1thess 4:13 -18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep,(dead saints) lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1cor 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep,(suffer physical death) but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Now THe issue is why is the Lord going to raise the righteous dead FIRST to have them be taken up to wait for us to be taken after them to meet the Lord in the air, after the Great Tribulation to only come right back?

Those who hold to no pretrib Rapture have not answered about those who were dead prior to the coming of the Lord. Paul is doing just that. in 1Thess chapter 4 & 1cor 15:50-58
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,983
1,261
113
The Church is no longer on the earth by Rev 4:1.....

"Come up here....."

That was said to John only, no one else and it was in the first century. The church is found all through Revelation before, during and after the Great Tribulation parts of the book.
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Those who hold to no pretrib Rapture have not answered about those who were dead prior to the coming of the Lord. Paul is doing just that. in 1Thess chapter 4 & 1cor 15:50-58
What's to Answer?

Christ explained in Matthew 24, [after] Tribulation, He Returns and Gathers [there is NOTHING that states the Gathering does not include both Dead and Alive].

Paul in 2nd Thess, explains the process of how Both Dead and Alive are Rapture'd


Christ lays the outline.
Paul fills in the Specifics.

The Second Coming is the Rapture!

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
^
Nowhere does is mention these are all Alive Elect, it just states Gather His Elect [that could mean both Dead and Alive]
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,983
1,261
113
The Church is no longer on the earth by Rev 4:1.....

"Come up here....."

So you think the rapture is for only one person named John and that rapture took place in the first century? The pre-trib doctrine is pretty terrible, but this takes the cake for sure.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Heaven_Bound, post:

Prove me Wrong!

1. Had Lot looked back and disobeyed, he would be like his wife and not Saved. So, he was Saved by Obedience, not by being removed by the Power of God.

2. Noah would not had survived had he not Obeyed God and built the Ark and then entered the Ark. But he STILL HAD TO GO THROUGH THE RAIN, THE EFFECTS OF THE RAIN AND POWER OF THE WATER, AND HE HAD TO REMAIN INSIDE THE ARK UNTIL LAND APPEARED. Had he not Obeyed, he would have died.

Both Examples God [[did not Remove them from Destruction]], they had to OBEY GOD to survive.

If God made both Lot and Noah OBEY Specific Orders and [DID NOT] Miraculously remove them from harms way, why would there be a Secret, NON BIBLICAL Coming, before the Second Coming?

Then obey God and keep your oil vessel filled.
Or miss it as you pointed out.

However, you are oblivious that we are talking about the rapture being pretrib, which for unknown reasons you oppose.

If you reject noah and lot as being prejudgement removal dynamics, that MEANS you automatically hold to them being a postjudgement removal.
( as you are unsuccessfully showing us).
By dodging and diverting, you are stuck in circular reasoning.

Are you hoping for some abstract agreement of " oh wow, you are right. How silly of me to think lot and noah were not delivered postjudgement"

Remember you accused me falsely of a depraved mind , or some such thing?

We can all see the karma is on you.

Lol
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I changed nothing, that is the actual Translation.
Ok. Play it out.
Postribs position is the rapture at the white horses.

Psssst....they never see heaven.

You know, where your " superior translation" places them.

Too funny!!!!!
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
You and i have already discussed this.

1. Had Lot looked back and disobeyed, he would be like his wife and not Saved. So, he was Saved by Obedience, not by being removed by the Power of God.

2. Noah would not had survived had he not Obeyed God and built the Ark. But he STILL HAD TO GO THROUGH THE RAIN, THE EFFECTS OF THE RAIN AND POWER OF THE WATER, AND HE HAD TO REMAIN INSIDE THE ARK UNTIL LAND APPEARED. Had he not Obeyed, he would have died.

Both Examples God [[did not Remove them from Destruction]], they had to OBEY GOD to survive.
...yes we " discussed" it.

All the facts i previously pointed out, are of course, omitted.

You keep doing that.

Very dishonest.
Sad actually.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Ok. Play it out.
Postribs position is the rapture at the white horses.

Psssst....they never see heaven.

You know, where your " superior translation" places them.

Too funny!!!!!
YOU POSTRIBBERS CAN NOT SEE THAT?????
You really believe that we never see heaven.
You bring that ridiculous assertion to the debate??????
 
Dec 29, 2021
1,317
314
83
Christ explained in Matthew 24, [after] Tribulation, He Returns and Gathers [there is NOTHING that states the Gathering does not include both Dead and Alive].

Paul in 2nd Thess, explains the process of how Both Dead and Alive are Rapture'd


Christ lays the outline.
Paul fills in the Specifics.

The Second Coming is the Rapture!

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
^
Nowhere does it mention these are all Alive Elect, it just states Gather His Elect [that could mean both Dead and Alive]



SHOW ME WHERE CHRIST IN MATTHEW 24 SPEAKS OF HIS SECOND COMING THAT THE ELECT HE GATHERS IS 100% ALIVE, AND NOT THE RAPTURE, WHERE HE GATHERS HIS ELECT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.