The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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cv5

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What verse in 2 tes 2 say pre trib?
My friend it is far more than a matter of "what verse". You have to look at the flow the structure the context of the passage. You need to study the original Greek. And then you need to concatenate these passages with the whole counsel of God.

Nevertheless it is true that 2 Thes 2:3 "the departure" G646 (apostasia) has you covered in this case.

The departure/rapture comes first THEN He who restrains is taken out of the way THEN the man of sin is revealed. Which is the first birth pang. Which is also the first seal being opened. Which is the sign that the DOTL has indeed begun.
 

cv5

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Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

SOME OF THE BRANCHES BROKEN OFF

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

SOME OF THE GENTILES GRAFTED IN

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off,

IF SOME OF JACOB BE BROKEN OFF

and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


AND THE GENTILES GRAFTED INTO JACOB BECOMING HEIRS AND PARTAKERS WITH JACOB

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

THE GENTILES BECOME PARTAKERS AKA JACOB

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

DON'T EVER THINK WE ARE DIFFERENT OR SEPARATE OR BETTER THAN JACOB

YOU ARE JACOB/ISRAEL

WHO IS GODS INHERITANCE? ISRAEL.



Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The gentiles become the seed of Abraham, the circumcision is of the heart

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

DOES IT SOUND LIKE PRE TRIB IS IN ANYWAY BEING THOUGHT OF FOR THOSE GRAFTED IN WITH THOSE TO WHOM THE PROMISES WERE GIVEN? OR DOES IT SOUND LIKE THEY HAVE BECOME FELLOW HEIRS?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,

IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS


OTHERWISE THOU SHALT BE CUT OFF

WHEN JESUS WAS GIVING A RUN DOWN ON HOW THE 'CHURCH' WAS DOING DID IT SOUND MORE LIKE A BODY TO BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE WORK AT HAND WAS COMPLETED OR DID IT SOUND LIKE MORE LIKE A BODY TO BE CUT OFF?

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CHURCH AND HOW HE MIGHT TAKE CARE OF IT?

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

AND WHO ARE THE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE? ABRAHAMS SEED - ISAAC AND JACOB/ISRAEL

IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN YOU ARE JACOB - GET READY FOR JACOBS TRIBULATION


Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.



Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

"THE CHURCH' IS JACOB the seed of Abraham




Galatians 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Rom 11:25. Whoops.....:oops:
 
Dec 29, 2021
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Read rev 14:14.

It is neither the rapture or the second coming

Very disingenuous of postribs to reframe rev 14:14

What do you guys do with it???
Pssssst...you must reframe it or jettison your deal.

It is the final nail in postribber doctrines coffin.

Decisively refutes it.
It CANNOT work in your model.
Must be reframed

....AND NO RED FLAGS ABOUT IT????
SMH
So, this Verse:
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Cannot mean the Gathering of the First Fruits, the wheat, the Elect [all the Same just different terminology like we see in other Biblical examples]?

Revelation 14:14 still reads Matthew 24 Second Coming to me and leading into Armageddon.

Having the CROWN of Gold is very much like the Verses describing LORD of lords and KING of kings!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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My friend it is far more than a matter of "what verse". You have to look at the flow the structure the context of the passage. You need to study the original Greek. And then you need to concatenate these passages with the whole counsel of God.

Nevertheless it is true that 2 Thes 2:3 "the departure" G646 (apostasia) has you covered in this case.

The departure/rapture comes first THEN He who restrains is taken out of the way THEN the man of sin is revealed. Which is the first birth pang. Which is also the first seal being opened. Which is the sign that the DOTL has indeed begun.
Apostasia means a departure from the faith. That’s common knowledge in any Greek lexicon.
 

cv5

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Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

SOME OF THE BRANCHES BROKEN OFF

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

SOME OF THE GENTILES GRAFTED IN

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off,

IF SOME OF JACOB BE BROKEN OFF

and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


AND THE GENTILES GRAFTED INTO JACOB BECOMING HEIRS AND PARTAKERS WITH JACOB

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

THE GENTILES BECOME PARTAKERS AKA JACOB

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

DON'T EVER THINK WE ARE DIFFERENT OR SEPARATE OR BETTER THAN JACOB

YOU ARE JACOB/ISRAEL

WHO IS GODS INHERITANCE? ISRAEL.



Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The gentiles become the seed of Abraham, the circumcision is of the heart

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

DOES IT SOUND LIKE PRE TRIB IS IN ANYWAY BEING THOUGHT OF FOR THOSE GRAFTED IN WITH THOSE TO WHOM THE PROMISES WERE GIVEN? OR DOES IT SOUND LIKE THEY HAVE BECOME FELLOW HEIRS?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,

IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS


OTHERWISE THOU SHALT BE CUT OFF

WHEN JESUS WAS GIVING A RUN DOWN ON HOW THE 'CHURCH' WAS DOING DID IT SOUND MORE LIKE A BODY TO BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE WORK AT HAND WAS COMPLETED OR DID IT SOUND LIKE MORE LIKE A BODY TO BE CUT OFF?

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CHURCH AND HOW HE MIGHT TAKE CARE OF IT?

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

AND WHO ARE THE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE? ABRAHAMS SEED - ISAAC AND JACOB/ISRAEL

IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN YOU ARE JACOB - GET READY FOR JACOBS TRIBULATION


Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.



Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

"THE CHURCH' IS JACOB the seed of Abraham




Galatians 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
BTW......those verses in no way CHANGE the identity of the Gentiles TO BECOME ethnic Jacob. Not even a little bit. The Church is one body, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Also take note the only time the name Jacob is used in this chapter is in Rom 11:26. AFTER THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES of Rom 11:25.....which marks the end of the Church age. Rom 11:26 of course pertaining to the prophecies of the deliverance of ETHNIC Israel which ONLY comes during of the 70th week of Daniel.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I sure wish I was attending the Bible studies you're attending......:D
Well, one version puts it like this:

Wycliffe -

"John 8:51 (WYC) Truly, truly, I say to you, if any man keep my word, he shall not taste death without end. [Truly, truly, I say to you, if any man shall keep my word, he shall not see, or taste, death into without end.]"



...and another, like this:

"Verily, verily, I say to you, If anyone keep My word, death he shall in no wise behold for ever [G1519 G165]"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Apostasia means a departure from the faith. That’s common knowledge in any Greek lexicon.
Let the readers check out Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871), page 93 (far right column):

-- https://archive.org/details/lexiconabridgedf00liddrich/page/92/mode/2up - 12th entry down from TOP... where it states "later form for apostasis" (then see THAT one, two entries down from that... because this is saying that it's the SAME WORD [one an older version, one a newer version]... just like also "Winer's Grammar" says, which link I've provided in the past)
 

cv5

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Apostasia means a departure from the faith. That’s common knowledge in any Greek lexicon.
False teaching. This error crept into the lexicons. Fully 7 versions of the Bible predating the 1611 KJV ALL used the clear straightforward term "the departure".

There is no legitimate reason for inserting "falling"......or "faith" into that Greek term.
In terms of the text there is only "THE departure".


I have studied the reasons why this deviation occurred. I suggest you do the same.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Rom 11:25. Whoops.....:oops:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Does this verse make the gentiles any less the seed of Abraham? Does this verse make the seed of Abraham any less Jacob?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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because this is saying that it's the SAME WORD [one an older version, one a newer version]... just like also "Winer's Grammar" says, which link I've provided in the past)
ah, yes... HERE:

[quoting old post]

.... AS WELL AS according to the following Greek Grammar (source):

[quoting]

"A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament: Regarded as a Sure Basis" by George Benedikt Winer (pgs 24-25):

"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"

[found on pgs 24-25]

-- https:/ /books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true


[end quoting]


____________

So to say, "[...] That’s common knowledge in any Greek lexicon" is not entirely accurate. ;)




Most recent ones leave off the definition (at Liddell and Scott's 1871) under "apostasis" (which is the SAME WORD) - "2. DEPARTURE or REMOVAL FROM"

[and the text in 2Th2:3 has the DEFINITE ARTICLE ("THE") with it, meaning a DEFINITE ONE / "THE Departure [FIRST]"!]
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Let the readers check out Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871), page 93 (far right column):

-- https://archive.org/details/lexiconabridgedf00liddrich/page/92/mode/2up - 12th entry down from TOP... where it states "later form for apostasis" (then see THAT one, two entries down from that... because this is saying that it's the SAME WORD [one an older version, one a newer version]... just like also "Winer's Grammar" says, which link I've provided in the past)
No. A cherry-picked source on page 93 from the year 1871, isolated from all scholarly agreement, is not a valid source.

Furthermore, it doesn't match the unanimously agreed upon definition of apostasia, doesn't match the context of the chapter, and creates numerous contradictions and theological errors common among dispensational premillennialists and pre-tribbers of all walks.

You need to look at all evidence to the contrary rather than just the small selection of sources that confirm your bias.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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False teaching. This error crept into the lexicons. Fully 7 versions of the Bible predating the 1611 KJV ALL used the clear straightforward term "the departure".

There is no legitimate reason for inserting "falling"......or "faith" into that Greek term.
In terms of the text there is only "THE departure".


I have studied the reasons why this deviation occurred. I suggest you do the same.
I could probably cite a few dozen sources that say apostasia means a departure or falling away from the faith.
 

cv5

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Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Does this verse make the gentiles any less the seed of Abraham? Does this verse make the seed of Abraham any less Jacob?
Oh yes the Church is the spiritual seed of Abraham.....by grace thru faith. And thereby receive the promises.

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with being the ethnic seed or becoming the ethnic seed. Gentiles will never ever become the ethnic seed of Abraham or Jacob.
 

cv5

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No. A cherry-picked source on page 93 from the year 1871, isolated from all scholarly agreement, is not a valid source.

Furthermore, it doesn't match the unanimously agreed upon definition of apostasia, doesn't match the context of the chapter, and creates numerous contradictions and theological errors common among dispensational premillennialists and pre-tribbers of all walks.

You need to look at all evidence to the contrary rather than just the small selection of sources that confirm your bias.
Unanimously? Hardly. I don't agree with those faulty lexicons at all.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Let the readers check out Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871), page 93 (far right column):

-- https://archive.org/details/lexiconabridgedf00liddrich/page/92/mode/2up - 12th entry down from TOP... where it states "later form for apostasis" (then see THAT one, two entries down from that... because this is saying that it's the SAME WORD [one an older version, one a newer version]... just like also "Winer's Grammar" says, which link I've provided in the past)
BUT with the Feminine version meaning

647. apostasion ►
Strong's Concordance
apostasion: a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce
Original Word: ἀποστάσιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: apostasion
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas'-ee-on)
Definition: a forsaking, (bill of) divorce
Usage: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.

The only FALLING AWAY GOD would be concerned with would be those FALLING AWAY from HIM OR as you like DEPARTING FROM HIM.



2Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

SUBJECT - the coming of Christ AND when He will be gathering us. SIMPLE.

THE WARNING - that day is not present don't be troubled

WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK OUT FOR -

it is either going to be a departing from faith

or

a departing from the earth

What would this verse most likely be saying? What OTHER clues are there?

The OVERCOMER sent to overcome will be revealed. The man of sin. The one who tempted Adam and Eve and Christ. The one the whole world will worship after.

depart from faith? or depart from the earth?

We are told BOTH OF THOSE THINGS MUST TAKE PLACE BEFORE CHRIST COMES AND GATHERS.

departing from the faith because of lying signs and wonders (so good at the deception the time had to be shortened)

or

departing from the earth WITHOUT BEING GATHERED AND WITHOUT THE LORD COMING

because the Lord coming and our being gathered comes AFTER so it can't come before. OR ELSE THE COMING AFTER AND GATHERING IS MADE INTO A LIE.


WHO WOULD TRY AND MAKE THE WORDS OF GOD IT INTO A LIE?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Let the readers check out Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1871), page 93 (far right column):

-- https://archive.org/details/lexiconabridgedf00liddrich/page/92/mode/2up - 12th entry down from TOP... where it states "later form for apostasis" (then see THAT one, two entries down from that... because this is saying that it's the SAME WORD [one an older version, one a newer version]... just like also "Winer's Grammar" says, which link I've provided in the past)
I'll actually use your source because it debunks you.

I found this in there:

ἀποστασία
Capture1.JPG

Guess what? It matches the Strong's. That's the Greek word used in 2 Thess. 2:3 and does not mean rapture at all. Rapture is an entirely different word.

G646. apostasia
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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They ARENT DEAD. THEY ARE SAVED. THEY HAVE RECEIVED ETERNAL LIFE. NOT ETERNAL LIFE WITH A NAP INBETWEEN. MAN ADDS THE NAP NOT GOD
To be clear, I wasn't talking about "SOUL sleep"...

... I was referencing their BODIES that will be "RESURRECTED ['to stand AGAIN' (on the earth)]"--"shall RISE first"--which is "THIS corruptible must PUT ON incorruption" (<--speaking of "the DEAD IN Christ" here... THEIR BODIES that have DIED)--"WE shall ALL be CHANGED in a moment..."--before the "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP [TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME with them]" thing happens
(FOR the "UNIONed-WITH [G4862] Him" thing ["the DEAD IN CHRIST," now RESURRECTED, INCLUDED!!])...

...which must occur in order for the "SHALL God BRING 'UNIONed-WITH [G4862]' HIM [/Jesus]" thing [i.e. at His (subsequent) "RETURN" to the earth Rev19],

IOW, THEY will NOT be LEFT OUT [simply because they DIED prior to!! (tho certainly "present / at home with the Lord" while "ABSENT from the BODY"!)]

THIS is what Paul is addressing in 1Th4... not "what happens when we die?" NO, that's NOT the question / issue he's addressing here!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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647. apostasion ►
Strong's Concordance
apostasion: a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce

G647 - apostasion -

certificate of divorce
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of aphistemi; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce -- (writing of) divorcement.

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/647.htm


____________



[which is ALSO a "DEPARTURE" (and in the case of "apostasia / apostasis"...context determining "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE")]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I'll actually use your source because it debunks you.
I found this in there:
ἀποστασία
View attachment 235585

You are completely overlooking the phrase: "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"
(at the LINK I provided, in previous post)



[why do people do this?? I can only guess why!!]



your source because it debunks you.

No, it does not.



IGNORE "apostasis" if you wish, though!! o_O:censored::sneaky:
 
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