The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

cv5 said:

I do 100% agree with the church being a part of the Apostasy, but for the opposite reason. They not only don't heed the 1st warning Christ gave about then end times, they also break the first commandment.

Ask yourself

1. WHY would anyone BUT THE CHURCH care if the antichrist was standing where he ought not claiming to be GOD?

2. Who but THE CHURCH could be UNFAITHFUL since it is only the church who HAS FAITH to begin with?

3. Who but the CHURCH is given the TRUTH making THEM the only group who could truly be DECEIVED?

4. Why is God telling the church any of this if they won't even be here?

5 Is the bible written for those who DO BELIEVE or for those who DON'T?

6. Who is this written to and who is the 'you'?

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

7. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

HAS GOD SET IT UP so that it is almost impossible to come to faith by REMOVING EVERYONE who has any knowledge and could share the good news? How does that help Him accomplish his wish that 'all come to repentance'? If the only ones left have never heard the words of God and there are only two men on the planet with that information, do some get lucky while others get taken in by the beast never have been given a chance? How would you feel about God if you were just in the process of coming to faith but still not quite there when everyone who could help you was gone?

8. I am sure you agree Jesus was speaking to the Apostles in Matt 24 so please ask yourself WHO is being addressed here? Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,

9 Who is being told this? Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains. Would God be giving warning to UNBELIEVERS? Why would they be reading the bible? Who would be showing them where to look?

10. Again, who is this information for? Who is Jesus talking to and what was the question being answered?
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day

11. Are Gods elect a member of the body of Christ? If yes, then if they have been raptured before this then what does this mean?
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. We know that for the pre trib theory the 'church' must be divided from the 'Jews' because they have to be punished for being born of the bloodline is the church also going to separate themselves from Gods elect?

12. So we have the church to be pre trib raptured

But we have the Jews who don't go
We have Gods elect that don't go
We have the two witnesses that don't go
We have the church of Smyrna that don't go (behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days)
This church CAN'T GO "thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate".
AND this church that can't go thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Since PRE TRIB makes it impossible to 'keepeth HIS WORKS unto the end' it also makes it impossible to receive any of the promises that follow because IF THEY DID it would void out way to many verses. Does that sit well with you?

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
27 And He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

I understand the messages go out to the churches but they all end with a PERSONAL, individual command to hear. Why do you think that is?

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Answer the questions or not, they are more for you anyhow.

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Jackson123 said:

And for me anyhow, that was very clear to see.

All you can do is put out what you believe. All the truth we have is given by GOD. It is up to Him to give the former and latter rains. We are to plant the seed. We must remember we most likely will NOT SEE a change HERE, if any change is to take place it will be when it is occurring. Hopefully it will stop someone from taking the mark of the beast. Without the seed there is nothing to water so it is important in that way.

ALSO and what is the best part of all is knowing someone is searching. If they are in prayer with the Father He will lead and guide them to HIS TRUTH. One side will make sense. One side will be confusing. One side will put forth His words. One side will put forth theirs. One side will put forth the wisdom of GOD. One side will put forth the wisdom of man.
One side will brush off the dust. One side will kick up the dust.

The one thing I love to see is someone putting forth truth while being attacked by the other side. It is always good, at least for me when I start being told I don't know anything or my belief is off or whatever wicked things are said as they judge because that is FRUIT. And fruit tells us more than anything else who is who because THEY CAN'T HELP IT. They can't stop. We, fall down sometimes because we are not perfect but we CAN crucify our flesh and get back on the path. We don't need to resort to anything but the words of God.

Ephesians 6:16 ABOVE ALL TAKING THE SHIELD OF FAITH WHERE WITH YE SHALL BE ABLE TO QUENCH ALL THE FIERY DARTS OF THE WICKED.

1 Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

cv5 said:

Church or churches is said 19 times in the first 3 chapters.

THEN without a single word, not a hint and IN CONTRAST TO everything written ABOUT THE CHURCH and about THE ELDERS, and all for the sake of 'THE DOCTRINE' the church is renamed and split into 24 elders, CORRECT? Not sure how that qualifies under 'the simplicity of Christ' but OK.

THEN in Chapter 5 the church TAKES over the place of the captivity led captive. SINCE the LAMB HAD JUST BEEN SLAIN AND ARRIVED TO OPEN THE BOOK, seems weird that the next 2000 years worth of Christians are already there, but OK.

QUICK re cap The church is grafted in, but isn't for any trouble, just THE rewards. Then the church is no longer the body of Christ but the elders. SO THE church is in heaven before it is on earth, again, OK. Not confusion in the least bit. Surely everyone reading the bible would see this.

Is the church is back on the earth as the 12 tribes being sealed?
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
or is the church the great multitude on the earth round the throne
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
or is the church 'the elders' in heaven again?
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

My question is how did the 'church' appropriate 'the elders'? It is used 178 times and I can't find one in which it is describing the church in heaven.

ELDERS ARE DESCRIBED AS b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches): (BACK TO A PARTIAL BODY OF CHRIST. IT IS SO HARD TO KEEP UP)

WHAT I DO NOTICE IS THE CHURCH IS ON THE EARTH AND THEN POOF, IT IS IN HEAVEN. AGAIN, AS ALWAYS, NOT A WORD FROM the words of God as to how that would have happened. JUST man and his conjecture. But hey, there are those willing to buy...

an example of what happens with 'elders'....
Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. (NOT THE CHURCH HERE EITHER as we will see)
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

cv5 said:

Non denominational. What about you?

cv5 · Jan 29, 2022

Jackson123 said:

That is your personal opinion. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of biblical teaching or precident.

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Does the Day of the Lord and the 7 years of Daniel run concurrently or consecutively?

How long is the day of the Lord? With all we are told that will be going on, we can safely go with the 1000 years.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

What did we learn? Day of the Lord will be 1000 years and will come unexpectedly. (to some) (who ever expected a thief in the night, just unknowingly sneaks into you life)

HEAVENS AND EARTH GOING THROUGH MAJOR CHANGES. PEOPLE ON EARTH GOING THROUGH MAJOR CHANGES. DEAD ON EARTH GOING THROUGH MAJOR CHANGES. THE END OF AN AGE, THE BEGINNING OF AN AGE.

HOW DOES it begin...The Lord descends from heaven along with His armies as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS

We know that Paul went to Thessalonica and then wrote a letter and a misunderstanding about the day of the Lord came about. They thought the day of the Lord was 'in effect' and so Paul wrote them another letter to clear it up.

When we get to the meat of the reason for the letter Paul is BESEECHING them or REALLY LETTING THEM KNOW THEY NEEDED TO LISTEN TO WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY AND WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY WAS CONCERING THE DAY OF THE LORD. IT WAS ABOUT HIS COMING AND OUR GATHERING TO HIM.

AND IT STARTS OUT WITH

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

beseech is to - make an earnest request, especially by someone on "special footing," i.e. in "preferred position."
by is basically - on behalf of, for the sake of, concerning

So an earnest request was being put forth to the brothers and it was concerning The LORDS DAY or the coming of the Lord and being gathered to Him
Paul didn't want anyone to be getting all stressed out or shaken up thinking the DAY was at hand and he didn't want that to take place by people talking, or by spirit NOT even by the FIRST LETTER he had sent,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul goes on to MAKE SURE AND CONVEY THE MESSAGE of 'don't be fooled by anyone at anytime who says 'the day is present' BECAUSE THAT DAY IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE GATHERED

UNTIL CERTAIN THINGS TAKE PLACE THOSE BEING

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

APOSTASY
AND
SON OF PERDITION KNOWN TO THE WORLD FOR WHO HE REALLY IS.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

WHAT WILL HE HAVE BEEN UP TO BEFORE HE IS REVEALED? SAME THING HE HAS ALWAYS WANTED.

AND PAUL CONFIRMS THESE ARE THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.
LORDS DAY IS NOT PRESENT AND WILL NOT BE PRESENT AND WE WILL NOT BE GATHERED UNITL AFTER APOSTASY AND REVEAL

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
WHAT DID WE JUST LEARN WAS HOLDING UP THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TO HIM?

SATAN BEING CAST TO THE EARTH
APOSTASY
SATAN GETTING THE WORLD TO WORSHIP HIM
STANDING IN GODS PLACE

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
THAT is the one of the worst verse translations ever

SO EASY READING IT AS PUT FORTH IN GREEK THOUGH
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only the restraining at present until out of the midst he might be gone

WHICH of course we know is
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

So either the war in heaven or Michael is the one restraining..

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH AND DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING.

9xxxx xxx, Whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

how does our salvation come? through sanctification of the Spirit and belief OF THE TRUTH

NOT THROUGH PRE TRIB RAPTURE

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

NOT THROUGH PRE TRIB RAPTURE

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every g2Thessalonians d word and work.

2Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

HOW MANY TIMES DID THE LORD DELIVER PAUL? MANY MANY

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

WHAT WAS THAT PRAYER THE LORD JESUS CHRIST MADE? NOT THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE THEM FROM THE WORLD BUT KEEP THEM FROM EVIL (CLOSE I THINK)

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

WHAT DO THEY COMMAND US? TO HOPE TO THE END. OVERCOME AND ENDURE TO THE END. THE END IS THE DAY THE LORD COMES TO RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

2065. erótaó ►
Strong's Concordance
erótaó: to ask, question
Original Word: ἐρωτάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erótaó
Phonetic Spelling: (er-o-tah'-o)
Definition: to ask, question
Usage: (a) I ask (a question), question, (b) I request, make a request to, pray.
HELPS Word-studies
2065 erōtáō (from eromai, "ask") – make an earnest request, especially by someone on "special footing," i.e. in "preferred position."

2065 /erōtáō ("to ask on special footing, intimacy") requests from a "preferred position" (E. Abbot, Johannine Grammar, 467,8). Such requesting receives special consideration because of the special relationship involved.

5228. huper
Strong's Concordance
huper: over, beyond, fig. on behalf of, for the sake of, concerning
Original Word: ὑπέρ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: huper
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-er')
Definition: over, beyond, on behalf of, for the sake of, concerning
Usage: gen: in behalf of; acc: above.
HELPS Word-studies
5228 hypér (a preposition) – properly, beyond (above); (figuratively) to extend benefit (help) that reaches beyond the present situation.

5228 /hypér ("beyond") is usually best translated "for the betterment (advantage) of," i.e. focusing on benefit. M. Vincent, "5228 (hypér) signifies something like 'in the interests of the truth . . . concerning.' J. B. Lightfoot (on Gal 1:4) . . . remarks that hypér has 'a sense of interest in,' which is wanting to peri" (WS).

[5228 (hypér) naturally expresses conferring benefit, i.e. for the sake of "betterment" (improvement, extending benefit).]

Absolutely · Jan 29, 2022

Jackson123 said:

It was revealed in 2014 trump was a candidate for the president.

Uh, was that at the end, middle or beginning of his term as president????

Listen real closely......It was pre

....pre. the AC is REVEALED at the white horse. THAT WOULD BE BEFORE HE IS SEATED.
Drumroll please........BEFFORE THE GT!!!!!!

REVEALED PREtrib
Unveiled BEFORE the trib!!!!!!

Your entire eschatology is now in need of serious overhaul.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 29, 2022

kleronomos said:

That is because Revelation is addressed TO NT believers, or the church.

Hold on a bit. Let's look at Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

This is in the LAST chapter of Revelation. So this shows that the focus throughout the book is on the church.

Marilyn · Jan 29, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

That is for the believers, the church to know the PURPOSES of God for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. All that is addressed, brought to a conclusion in Revelation.

God`s word IS NOT ALL ABOUT US!!! We are NOT the centre of the universe, JESUS IS!

Jackson123 · Jan 29, 2022

Absolutely said:

I don't understand what is your believe

1 how do you know trump is ac
2 you believe after trump being reveal ? He known long before as rich man
3 you believe rapture after a man of sin being reveal but not GT yet
4 or you believe as soon as MSN of sin being reveal sit on the holy temple, and Gt in the same time

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Daniel 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel 9:12 And He hath confirmed His words, which He spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us for the LORD our God is righteous in all His works which He doeth for we obeyed not His voice.

THE CHURCHES WERE GRADED AND TOLD WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE. WOULD HE REALLY TAKE THEM TO HEAVEN NOT KNOWING IF THEY HAD DONE AS COMMANDED? IS THAT HOW GOD WORKS? IS IT FAIR OR JUST TO TREAT ONE GENERATION DIFFERENT THAN THE NEXT?

Daniel 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought Thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Daniel 9:16 O Lord, according to all Thy righteousness, I beseech Thee, let thine anger and Thy fury be turned away from Thy city Jerusalem, Thy holy mountain because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

please GOD turn your fury away because not just US but also Jerusalem have become a reproach a 'tisk tisk what a shame' to EVERYONE ELSE

Daniel 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

Daniel 9:18 O my God, incline Thine ear, and hear; open Thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by Thy name for we do not present our supplications before Thee for our righteousnesses, but for Thy great mercies.

WE AREN'T DOING IT RIGHT OR WELL BUT I AM ASKING FOR YOU TO RISE ABOVE AND GIVE THE KIND OF MERCY ONLY A GOD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER COULD

Daniel 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for Thine own sake, O my God for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

NOT SO MUCH FOR US BUT FOR YOU NAME AND GLORY PLEASE I BEG YOU DON'T LET THE WORLD LOOK UPON YOU CITY AND YOUR PEOPLE ANY LONGER WHILE UNDER YOUR FURY.

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks
shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

THE END OF THE WAR. SOLDIERS OF CHRIST. GOSPEL ARMOR. WITHSTAND FIERY DARTS. STAND. SHOUT OUT A WARNING.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week
SATAN IS GOING TO DECEIVE THE CHURCH at the end, THERE IS NOT ANOTHER PEOPLE BUT GODS PEOPLE TO COVENANT WITH AS FAR AS WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO GOD. GOD ISN'T GOING TO CARE IF SATAN HAS A COVENANT WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE OR THOSE WHO DON'T CARE WHO THEY ARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. THERE IS ONLY ONE PEOPLE IN WHICH GOD WOULD BE CONCERNED WITH. THAT IS CALLED 'THE CHURCH' ISRAEL/JACOB.
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
THE LOVE THAT HAS BEEN GOING TO GOD IS NOW GOING TO SATAN AND THE IMAGE HE HAS SET UP TO WORSHIP. THERE IS NO OTHER GROUP TO WHICH THIS COULD APPLY. THERE WILL BE NO TIME TO FORM A GROUP TO WHICH THIS COULD APPLY. THERE IS ONLY ONE PEOPLE, GODS PEOPLE TO WHOM THIS COULD APPLY OR TO WHICH GOD WOULD CARE ABOUT.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
HE MAKES THE CHURCH DESOLATE, HE DECEIVES THE CHURCH INTO BELIEVING HIS LIES
even until the consummation,
ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL THE VERY END AND THEN WE WILL SEE THE LORD GOD COMING IN THE CLOUDS
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
AND THIS IS WHEN GREAT TRIBULATION SUCH AS THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN IS DUMPED OUT UPON THE WORLD OF THE WICKED. THIS IS THE WRATH OF GOD. THIS IS THE CUP POURED OUT. THESE ARE THE BOWLS OF HIS FURY DUMPED UPON THEM. NOT UPON US

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Marilyn said:

Who is Israel of the NT?

Justice Josh put together a team to take to the World Series

To be a part of his team you had to agree to abide by the rules. If everyone didn't, then at the end of the season the team would have to strip, wax and buff the floors of the locker room.

Turns out all the rules were a bit to hard to follow so some got kicked off the team. New and better rules were set up and new team mates joined.

At the end of the season, they won the series but even though the rules had been changed mid way, the original agreement stood and so the team had to strip wax and buff the floors.

JUST BECAUSE SOME OF THE TEAM MEMBERS CAME IN UNDER THE NEW RULES, DOESN'T NEGATE THE FACT THAT THEY BECAME A PART OF AN ALREADY EXISTING TEAM. SO WHEN THE TEAM HAS GOT TO 'PAY UP' The new members don't get to claim they didn't sign the original, THEY JOINED A TEAM ALREADY IN PROGRESS AND SO THEY DON'T MAKE UP THE RULES, THEY FOLLOW THE RULES.

GRAFTED IN, WITH THE NEW RULES, NOT SEPARATE WITH THEIR OWN RULES.

AT LEAST THAT IS HOW I READ IT

Marilyn · Jan 29, 2022

kleronomos said:

Who is Israel of the NT?

Justice Josh put together a team to take to the World Series

To be a part of his team you had to agree to abide by the rules. If everyone didn't, then at the end of the season the team would have to strip, wax and buff the floors of the locker room.

Turns out all the rules were a bit to hard to follow so some got kicked off the team. New and better rules were set up and new team mates joined.

At the end of the season, they won the series but even though the rules had been changed mid way, the original agreement stood and so the team had to strip wax and buff the floors.

JUST BECAUSE SOME OF THE TEAM MEMBERS CAME IN UNDER THE NEW RULES, DOESN'T NEGATE THE FACT THAT THEY BECAME A PART OF AN ALREADY EXISTING TEAM. SO WHEN THE TEAM HAS GOT TO 'PAY UP' The new members don't get to claim they didn't sign the original, THEY JOINED A TEAM ALREADY IN PROGRESS AND SO THEY DON'T MAKE UP THE RULES, THEY FOLLOW THE RULES.

GRAFTED IN, WITH THE NEW RULES, NOT SEPARATE WITH THEIR OWN RULES.

AT LEAST THAT IS HOW I READ IT

mmmm where is God`s word? Scriptures? Only see your opinion.

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Absolutely said:

YES, THAT WOULD BE THE WHITE HORSE CARRYING THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS DESCENDING FROM HEAVEN TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM HERE ON EARTH

IT IS ONLY THE BRIGHTNESS OF CHRISTS' RETURN THAT REVEALS WHO SATAN IS.

HE WOULDN'T BE STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT IF REVEALED BEFORE THEN.

THE WORLD WOULD NOT BE WORSHIPPING HIM IF THEY KNEW HE WAS THE DEVIL.

THAT IS WHAT THE DECEPTION IS ALL ABOUT. HE IS NOT CHRIST RETURNED HE IS THE

INSTEAD OF CHRIST. SENT ON THE FIRST WHITE HORSE WHO A CROWN THAT WAS GIVEN TO HIM. WHO DO YOU THINK GAVE HIM THE CROWN? HE WAS SENT TO OVERCOME.

WE ARE TOLD TO OVERCOME.

I WONDER WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO OVERCOME.

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Thessalonians 2:9 whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

kleronomos · Jan 29, 2022

Marilyn said:

STILL COULD ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED FIRST

cv5 · Jan 29, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Absolutely positively wrong. A woefully erroneus conclusion on your part. This error due to your ignorance of typical Greek letter writing structure.

cv5 · Jan 29, 2022

kleronomos said:

Church or churches is said 19 times in the first 3 chapters.

THEN without a single word, not a hint and IN CONTRAST TO everything written ABOUT THE CHURCH and about THE ELDERS, and all for the sake of 'THE DOCTRINE' the church is renamed and split into 24 elders, CORRECT? Not sure how that qualifies under 'the simplicity of Christ' but OK.

THEN in Chapter 5 the church TAKES over the place of the captivity led captive. SINCE the LAMB HAD JUST BEEN SLAIN AND ARRIVED TO OPEN THE BOOK, seems weird that the next 2000 years worth of Christians are already there, but OK.

QUICK re cap The church is grafted in, but isn't for any trouble, just THE rewards. Then the church is no longer the body of Christ but the elders. SO THE church is in heaven before it is on earth, again, OK. Not confusion in the least bit. Surely everyone reading the bible would see this.

Is the church is back on the earth as the 12 tribes being sealed?
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
or is the church the great multitude on the earth round the throne
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
or is the church 'the elders' in heaven again?
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Luke 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

My question is how did the 'church' appropriate 'the elders'? It is used 178 times and I can't find one in which it is describing the church in heaven.

ELDERS ARE DESCRIBED AS b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches): (BACK TO A PARTIAL BODY OF CHRIST. IT IS SO HARD TO KEEP UP)

WHAT I DO NOTICE IS THE CHURCH IS ON THE EARTH AND THEN POOF, IT IS IN HEAVEN. AGAIN, AS ALWAYS, NOT A WORD FROM the words of God as to how that would have happened. JUST man and his conjecture. But hey, there are those willing to buy...

an example of what happens with 'elders'....
Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. (NOT THE CHURCH HERE EITHER as we will see)
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And the Church is NEVER mentioned anyhere from chapters 6 through 18. The reasons are obvious if you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

Absolutely · Jan 29, 2022

Jackson123 said:

I used trump as a SEATED power example.
Revealed BEFORE he was seated in power.

Same with the ac.
In fact it is declared 3 times.
Something removed
ac REVEALED.
SOLID pretrib rapture dynamic.

Absolutely · Jan 29, 2022

kleronomos said:

It says power was given the ac to OVERCOME the saints.

But for us we are overcomers in that we also overcome the world, the flesh and the devil, (Basically overcome sin),
It also says all take the mark or get beheaded.
So,yet another brick wall for the postrib rapture doctrine.

Absolutely · Jan 29, 2022

kleronomos said:

IT IS ONLY THE BRIGHTNESS OF CHRISTS' RETURN THAT REVEALS WHO SATAN IS.

Click to expand...

It is implied we will know who he is. (pretrib in fact)

and no, i have been in demonic environments. I could sense the devil big time and it was not the second coming.

The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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