The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

That has to be one of the worst translation suggestions I have ever read. The KJV translation is better and correct while that is nonsense that isn't even real English.

"until he be taken out of the way"

Not the word "taken"... but instead, G1096 (become / come to be);

Not the word "the way"... but instead, G3319 (midst / middle... just like is used in Rev1:13,2:1 but there it's "IN THE MIDST" not "OUT-OF [ek] THE MIDST" as it is here)




"[the One restraining AT PRESENT, will restrain] UNTIL out-of the midst he BECOME [/ COME TO BE], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED..."

(VERY SIMILAR language to that which is being communicated in Lamentations 2:3-4: "withdraw His right hand FROM BEFORE THE ENEMY...")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ran outta edit time for spelling... gonna go snooze now... g'night all!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, @Jesus_Leads (re: your Post #1858)... regarding 2Pet3:8-10 (esp the phrase "IN WHICH"), I always recommend that people read BOTH CHAPTERS of Isaiah 34-35 (and not merely the one verse 34:4) when ascertaining what all Peter is speaking of, in his passage (in question).

Hope that helps somewhat. Gotta run for now! = )

 

[ewq1938]

Not the word "taken"... but instead, G1096 (become / come to be);

That comes from someone with little or no Greek language education. Scholars with decades of real education in that language and how to translate it into English are qualified to decide what Paul said, not you. Your "translation" is horrible and isn't even recognizable English.

It is something being taken out of the way that was preventing the revealing of the man of sin. You are always willing to break any and every type of rule to force pre-trib into verses it does not appear in.

 

[Marilyn]

He

Hey everyone I believe our lord will save us before tribulation but I have a doubt with two verses which are as follows.

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonian2:3

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
2 Peter 3:10 RSV

In 1st verse antichrist has to showup before rapture and also there's a great destruction happening during rapture these two are not mentioned in other verses which explains rapture so can some one help me to understand this.

Glad you believe in the `blessed hope.`

Now the Day of the Lord (time period) comes - (Rapture) Russian war, then the peace treaty by the anti-Christ.
Later the Day of the Lord (specific day) when the Lord comes to deliver Israel and judge the nations. By then the A/c has shown up.
We need to know from scripture which DAY it is referring to - the time period or the specific day for both are mentioned.

Then as to 1 Peter he is referring to the whole time span of the Day of the Lord. Here is a diagram.

 

[Jackson123]

According this article apostasy and man of lawlessness not than

2 Thessalonians 2 - Click for Chapter
3 3361 [e]
3 mē
3 μή
3 No
3 Adv

5100 [e]
tis
τις
one
IPro-NMS

4771 [e]
hymas
ὑμᾶς
you
PPro-A2P

1818 [e]
exapatēsē
ἐξαπατήσῃ
should deceive
V-ASA-3S

2596 [e]
kata
κατὰ
in
Prep

3367 [e]
mēdena
μηδένα
not one
Adj-AMS

5158 [e]
tropon
τρόπον ,
way
N-AMS

3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
because [it is]
Conj

1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj

3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not [until]
Adv

2064 [e]
elthē
ἔλθῃ
shall have come
V-ASA-3S

3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
the
Art-NFS

646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

4412 [e]
prōton
πρῶτον ,
first
Adv-S

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

601 [e]
apokalyphthē
ἀποκαλυφθῇ
shall have been revealed
V-ASP-3S

3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS

444 [e]
anthrōpos
ἄνθρωπος
man
N-NMS

3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
-
Art-GFS

458 [e]
anomias
ἀνομίας ,
of lawlessness
N-GFS

3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Regarding Jackson123 's Post #1866, see this older post:

Post #311 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533047





[note how the "[be] revealed" is mentioned 3x in this text, regarding the man of sin... and what stands (in the text) in relation to that...]




____________

[see also Post #290 (different thread), covering basically the same point - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977 ]

 

[Jackson123]

^ Regarding Jackson123 's Post #1866, see this older post:

Post #311 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533047





[note how the "[be] revealed" is mentioned 3x in this text, regarding the man of sin... and what stands (in the text) in relation to that...]




____________

[see also Post #290 (different thread), covering basically the same point - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977 ]

I am not agree
If apostacy in this context mean rapture

Than

Concerning second coming and rapture, don't confuse
Rapture will not happen before rapture and ac

To me it doesnt make sense

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is something being taken out of the way that was preventing the revealing of [...]

You seem to be having this word in the "passive" (being taken), but what I see written is a word in the "MIDDLE" voice INSTEAD (represented by the "M" in the "V-ASM-3S" showing in the far right-hand column, here at link--the far right column in the row with the G1096 word - "γένηται. genētai " [which Strong's number and word is in far left column and second column]): https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm


Your "be taken [passive] [out of the way]" idea is what we see written in, say, Luke 17:34 ("[taken] passive" represented by the "P" in the "V-FIP-3S" showing in far right column - https://biblehub.com/text/luke/17-34.htm ), but that's not what (nor how) the word is here written in our present text of 2Th2:7 (under present discussion).


But believe what you will, ewq...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Concerning second coming and rapture,
don't confuse
Rapture will not happen before rapture and ac

You're leaving out entirely the "false claim" (Paul's telling about) in verse 2, "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present / is already here"...

...Paul had already made clear that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]"... of the MANY of THOSE VERY THINGS that Jesus had said would come / unfold upon the earth (Matt24:4-8+ / Mk13:5-8+ / Lk21:8-11,[25-28])... But you do not believe Him, apparently (because those BPs do NOT *arrive* at the point of His Second Coming (they PRECEDE it and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth); however, that's what you'd have the readers believe Paul was telling them the "false claim" consisted of [in verse 2]. It didn't.)

 

[Absolutely]

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shallm appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after tribulation....second coming...gather together/ rapture

So second coming and rapture is imedietely after trib not before

No rapture there ,only a gathering in heaven by angels.
Not Jesus gathering on earth.

Rapture is pretrib as the pretrib verses you guys COMPLETELY omit declare.

Your doctrine exists via omission

Not a good testimony.
We have the high ground.

 

[Absolutely]

I think it's high time to end all this silliness about this verse. It says nothing about a rapture.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Strong's Concordance for the word translated "rebellion"
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

.


English Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.


" second coming" is not in any postrib "verses".

Using your logic, there is no second coming.

 

[Absolutely]

You're leaving out entirely the "false claim" (Paul's telling about) in verse 2, "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present / is already here"...

...Paul had already made clear that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]"... of the MANY of THOSE VERY THINGS that Jesus had said would come / unfold upon the earth (Matt24:4-8+ / Mk13:5-8+ / Lk21:8-11,[25-28])... But you do not believe Him, apparently (because those BPs do NOT *arrive* at the point of His Second Coming (they PRECEDE it and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth); however, that's what you'd have the readers believe Paul was telling them the "false claim" consisted of [in verse 2]. It didn't.)

Good point.

Birth pangs.

So postribbers can calculate the day they think the rapture will happen.

Yet another dead end for their hypothesis.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I think it's high time to end all this silliness about this verse. It says nothing about a rapture.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Strong's Concordance for the word translated "rebellion"
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

.
English Standard Version
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Sure. When you have no defense or ammo, you just ignore the evidence presented and change the subject by quoting a verse that is NOT relevant to the discussion.

" second coming" is not in any postrib "verses".

To be clear, the words "second coming" does not occur in the Bible; just like the word "Trinity".

Using your logic, there is no second coming.

I guess you don't comprehend much here. Of couse there is a second coming. Why in the world would you make such a ridiculous conclusion like that?

Please explain how you came to this weird conclusion from what I have posted. It will give me a glimpse of how your mind works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Birth pangs.

So postribbers can calculate the day they think the rapture will happen.

This is another ridiculous conclusion.

What Jesus actually said was that "no man knows the DAY or HOUR. Not even the Son of Man."

Since the beginning of the Trib is so vague, in terms of a starting point (Rev 6 and the horsemen), the best anyone will be able to do is know the YEAR. But even that isn't clear, since the appearance of the 4 sequential horsemen of Rev 6 isn't specific enough.

Yet another dead end for their hypothesis.

Actually, what constitutes a "dead end" is having NO VERSES that show what you believe, as you have done.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Good point.
Birth pangs.
So postribbers can calculate the day they think the rapture will happen.
Yet another dead end for their hypothesis.

You and I have differing views on what Matthew 24:36 [and parallels] is saying.

I see it like this:

--the CONTEXT is with regard to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" time-slot);

--"no man KNOWS [PERFECT indicative]" (not even Jesus) is NOT saying, "no man CAN EVER KNOW / WILL EVER KNOW [/ is FORBIDDEN FROM EVER KNOWING (as some suggest)] / etc". It's NOT SAYING that;

--after Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation, He NOW KNOWS and some 60+ years later disclosed FURTHER INFORMATION on *THAT SUBJECT* in "[The] Revelation OF Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to SHOW UNTO..." (and the rest of that Book unfolds like a CALENDAR, with time-stamps throughout [some being more readily discernible than others] which spells out the "7 years / 2520 days" mapped out (as I said, just like a calendar);

--...which means that the "NO MAN KNOWS [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" is no longer applicable (since Jesus now knows and has further disclosed the INFO [in 95ad] on that very SUBJECT--re: His Second Coming to the earth and the time-period which LEADS UP TO that [i.e. the "7 years / 2520 days" / the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period [1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c] involving the "SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS"... commonly called the tribulation period)

 

[cv5]

This is another ridiculous conclusion.

What Jesus actually said was that "no man knows the DAY or HOUR. Not even the Son of Man."

(Rev 6 and the horsemen), the best anyone will be able to do is know the YEAR. But even that isn't clear, since the appearance of the 4 sequential horsemen of Rev 6 isn't specific enough.


Actually, what constitutes a "dead end" is having NO VERSES that show what you believe, as you have done.

"Since the beginning of the Trib is so vague, in terms of a starting point"

Wrong again. Far from being vague, the start of the 70th wk of Daniel tribulation is exceedingly specific and abrupt. It begins with a person/event that the entire planet will witness. This person/event is emphasized by Paul three times in 2Thessalonians alone. And the Bible is loaded with indications of this person/event in many other passages as well.

In fact the revealing/beginning of this person/event is THE key, seminal point of reference for all end-time eschatology.

Furthermore, I would ask you: is the pre-tribulation, pre man of sin rapture an exceeding abrupt, specific event? I sure would think so. It's part of the package my friend. A shocking event that no one left upon the earth could possibly deny.

 

[cv5]

You and I have differing views on what Matthew 24:36 [and parallels] is saying.

I see it like this:

--the CONTEXT is with regard to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" time-slot);

--"no man KNOWS [PERFECT indicative]" (not even Jesus) is NOT saying, "no man CAN EVER KNOW / WILL EVER KNOW [/ is FORBIDDEN FROM EVER KNOWING (as some suggest)] / etc". It's NOT SAYING that;

--after Jesus' resurrection / ascension / exaltation, He NOW KNOWS and some 60+ years later disclosed FURTHER INFORMATION on *THAT SUBJECT* in "[The] Revelation OF Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM to SHOW UNTO..." (and the rest of that Book unfolds like a CALENDAR, with time-stamps throughout [some being more readily discernible than others] which spells out the "7 years / 2520 days" mapped out (as I said, just like a calendar);

--...which means that the "NO MAN KNOWS [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" is no longer applicable (since Jesus now knows and has further disclosed the INFO [in 95ad] on that very SUBJECT--re: His Second Coming to the earth and the time-period which LEADS UP TO that [i.e. the "7 years / 2520 days" / the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period [1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c] involving the "SEALS / TRUMPETS / VIALS"... commonly called the tribulation period)

No one knows precisely when "the head of the year"/sighting of the new moon/the beginning of the feast of trumpets begins. They needed to set a watch and observe intently.

But everyone knew, from the King to the beggar, that the new year was coming.

This line of thinking is lost on many Christians today. Understandably.

 

[Omegatime]

No one knows precisely when "the head of the year"/sighting of the new moon/the beginning of the feast of trumpets begins. They needed to set a watch and observe intently.

But everyone knew, from the King to the beggar, that the new year was coming.

This line of thinking is lost on many Christians today. Understandably.

Head of the year is certainly not at the feast of trumpets. Since man may choose a civil calendar God would not---He would use the sacred calendar established at creation and retold in Exodus 12.

12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month shall be for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for you. 3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month they shall take every man a lamb according to their fathers’ houses, a lamb for a household; 4 and if the household is too small for a lamb, then a man and his neighbor next to his house shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old; you shall take it from the sheep or from the goats; 6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening.

 

[cv5]

Head of the year is certainly not at the feast of trumpets. Since man may choose a civil calendar God would not---He would use the sacred calendar established at creation and retold in Exodus 12.

12 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month shall be for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for you. 3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month they shall take every man a lamb according to their fathers’ houses, a lamb for a household; 4 and if the household is too small for a lamb, then a man and his neighbor next to his house shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old; you shall take it from the sheep or from the goats; 6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening.

Of course I am very well aware of that passage.

You may not understand that there two calendars in Israel. The religious calendar and the "agricultural" calendar.

The Leviticus 23 prescribed feasts of Moses are all geared to the agricultural/secular calendar.

The head of the year aka new year is in the FALL. After all the harvests have been completed, and the planting of the barley harvest begins.

Great study you should check into it.

Is also very good reason to believe that the feast of trumpets is related to our rapture.