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K
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Doesn't look too good for the rich man
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Doesn't look too good for the rich man
K
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
and on and on and on.........universal salvation is a lie.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
and on and on and on.........universal salvation is a lie.
C
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"...if one died for all, then they all were dead. And He died for all so that they who are living would no longer live for themselves, but rather, for the one having died for them and rose again." (2Co 5:14-15)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Knowing that Christ, having been risen from the dead, no longer dies, death no longer has dominion over Him. Seeing that He died for sin, He died once, but that He lives, He lives for God. (Rom 6:9-10)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First, allow me to clarify that nowheres does it mention, "that ALL might live in Christ eternally". But, on the other hand, you are correct to say, "He died for ALL". But, as to not all hearing Him, it is said, "...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they who hear, shall live[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]" (Joh 5:25) So, I ask, what of those who do not hear? Shall they live? Allow me to continue, "...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he who believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]." (Joh 11:25) If we know that they who are the children of God walk not according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, then who do the children of disobedience follow, if not Satan? Are they not naturally the children of wrath? (Eph 2:2-3) And whose wrath is being spoken about here, if not the wrath of God during the Judgment against Satan, his hord, and the wicked? And whose children are they, if not the children of Lucifer, the Father of the lie?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for, "...He died for sin, He died once...", using your deductive reason, then there is no more sin to be accounted for, and thus, there is no reason for the wrath of God, for the judgment of condemnation on the wicked, for proclaiming the good news of the Gospel. As a matter of fact, according to Universal Salvation, there is no need to follow the comamndments of Jesus to love God and others. So, am I, therefore, priviledged to do as I please? But yet, we are told, "...the friendship of the world is enmity with God...whosoever, therefore, will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God". (Jas 4:4) Indeed, "...The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him. But His power and WRATH is against all those who forske Him. (Ezr 8:22) Who is the enemy of God, if not Satan with his lie? Did it not just say that "a friend of the world is an enemy of God". So then, is not His wrath against His enemies, those who forsake Him as Satan did?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I believe even the difinite articles of the Scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I quite understand that just because all dogs have legs and all cats have legs, that does not make all dogs cats and all cats dogs. So there is no confusion about deductive reasoning here. I have tried with others to use nothing but scriptures, and to that I get "all translations of the Bibile are biased". I tried logic as they do, and then I get that I speak as a man without understanding. I have tried to use both the Bible an logic together, and they say, "I do not know what I am talking about". So, to this, I say, "Is your problem really with me or with the Scriptures?" This is not at all directed at you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I will like to point out one thing, when you see the word "saved", what comes to mind? Is it not saved from God wrath and its impending judgment of condemnation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Getting back to your statement, I have found, instead, Jesus, who is the ultimate authority, saying in Mar 6:16, "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe (note: baptized or not) shall be damned (found worthy of punishment)". I do not know if this is the one you are speaking of. But, in either case, they are in harmony up to "he who does not believe shall be damned". So, with that in mind, let us continue. We can only conclude, since these are the Lord's words, that one must believe (in the Gospel), one must be baptised (outward manifestation of your acceptance of Christ as Savior), in order to be saved. They who do not display this manifestation, do seem to be ashamed of their Christ. And if one is ashamed of Christ, so shall He be ashamed of. (Mar 8:38) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Most certainly God is all-powerful. But, what does that have to do with those who reject Him? In fact, we are told, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has one who judges him: the word which I have spoken. The same shall judge him during the last day[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]." (Joh 12:48). Again, we have Jesus saying to the appointed seventy, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He who hears you, hears me. And, he who rejcts you, rejects Me. And, he who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Mat 10:40, Luk 10:16, Joh 13:20, 1Th 4:8) Therefore, it is illogical to even be debated by some that God will force His Godhood upon all evenually, seeing that that one shall be judged by the word (the Gospel) which Jesus spoke.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"...if one died for all, then they all were dead. And He died for all so that they who are living would no longer live for themselves, but rather, for the one having died for them and rose again." (2Co 5:14-15)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Knowing that Christ, having been risen from the dead, no longer dies, death no longer has dominion over Him. Seeing that He died for sin, He died once, but that He lives, He lives for God. (Rom 6:9-10)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First, allow me to clarify that nowheres does it mention, "that ALL might live in Christ eternally". But, on the other hand, you are correct to say, "He died for ALL". But, as to not all hearing Him, it is said, "...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they who hear, shall live[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]" (Joh 5:25) So, I ask, what of those who do not hear? Shall they live? Allow me to continue, "...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he who believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]." (Joh 11:25) If we know that they who are the children of God walk not according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, then who do the children of disobedience follow, if not Satan? Are they not naturally the children of wrath? (Eph 2:2-3) And whose wrath is being spoken about here, if not the wrath of God during the Judgment against Satan, his hord, and the wicked? And whose children are they, if not the children of Lucifer, the Father of the lie?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for, "...He died for sin, He died once...", using your deductive reason, then there is no more sin to be accounted for, and thus, there is no reason for the wrath of God, for the judgment of condemnation on the wicked, for proclaiming the good news of the Gospel. As a matter of fact, according to Universal Salvation, there is no need to follow the comamndments of Jesus to love God and others. So, am I, therefore, priviledged to do as I please? But yet, we are told, "...the friendship of the world is enmity with God...whosoever, therefore, will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God". (Jas 4:4) Indeed, "...The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him. But His power and WRATH is against all those who forske Him. (Ezr 8:22) Who is the enemy of God, if not Satan with his lie? Did it not just say that "a friend of the world is an enemy of God". So then, is not His wrath against His enemies, those who forsake Him as Satan did?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I believe even the difinite articles of the Scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I quite understand that just because all dogs have legs and all cats have legs, that does not make all dogs cats and all cats dogs. So there is no confusion about deductive reasoning here. I have tried with others to use nothing but scriptures, and to that I get "all translations of the Bibile are biased". I tried logic as they do, and then I get that I speak as a man without understanding. I have tried to use both the Bible an logic together, and they say, "I do not know what I am talking about". So, to this, I say, "Is your problem really with me or with the Scriptures?" This is not at all directed at you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I will like to point out one thing, when you see the word "saved", what comes to mind? Is it not saved from God wrath and its impending judgment of condemnation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Getting back to your statement, I have found, instead, Jesus, who is the ultimate authority, saying in Mar 6:16, "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe (note: baptized or not) shall be damned (found worthy of punishment)". I do not know if this is the one you are speaking of. But, in either case, they are in harmony up to "he who does not believe shall be damned". So, with that in mind, let us continue. We can only conclude, since these are the Lord's words, that one must believe (in the Gospel), one must be baptised (outward manifestation of your acceptance of Christ as Savior), in order to be saved. They who do not display this manifestation, do seem to be ashamed of their Christ. And if one is ashamed of Christ, so shall He be ashamed of. (Mar 8:38) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Most certainly God is all-powerful. But, what does that have to do with those who reject Him? In fact, we are told, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has one who judges him: the word which I have spoken. The same shall judge him during the last day[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]." (Joh 12:48). Again, we have Jesus saying to the appointed seventy, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He who hears you, hears me. And, he who rejcts you, rejects Me. And, he who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Mat 10:40, Luk 10:16, Joh 13:20, 1Th 4:8) Therefore, it is illogical to even be debated by some that God will force His Godhood upon all evenually, seeing that that one shall be judged by the word (the Gospel) which Jesus spoke.[/FONT]
T
If you had read my post, you would have seen that I had addressed these passages. They all refer to the period of judgment. All will be judged. Many will be punished. But that punishment will not be eternal.
Seriously. ETERNAL torture? I mean, it takes a really sick, twisted, sadistic person to torture someone just once. What kind of sick deity would subject someone to ETERNAL torture? I'll tell you what: any deity that would do that is not worthy of belief, let alone worship and praise.
If you read one verse stuck out all by itself, I can see how you might get fooled into believing in something other than universal salvation. But if you read the entire Bible, and understand it as a whole, you will see that it's just not possible.
Each of us is judged, and the evil in every one of us is cleansed, like gold is purified in a refiner's fire, or chaff is separated from the wheat with a winnowing fork. Once you understand this, you can read Scripture with full understanding.
Seriously. ETERNAL torture? I mean, it takes a really sick, twisted, sadistic person to torture someone just once. What kind of sick deity would subject someone to ETERNAL torture? I'll tell you what: any deity that would do that is not worthy of belief, let alone worship and praise.
If you read one verse stuck out all by itself, I can see how you might get fooled into believing in something other than universal salvation. But if you read the entire Bible, and understand it as a whole, you will see that it's just not possible.
Each of us is judged, and the evil in every one of us is cleansed, like gold is purified in a refiner's fire, or chaff is separated from the wheat with a winnowing fork. Once you understand this, you can read Scripture with full understanding.
T
Dear cfultz:
First of all, I want to say thank you for your response. Though we disagree, and I doubt we will ever agree on this topic, I appreciate that you are speaking to me with respect. I wanted to respond to just one point in your post.
First of all, this is Mark 16:16. I won't give you a hard time about the typo -- I make them, too.
More importantly, let's look at the original Greek. The word in question is "katakrithesetai." The root of the verb in the infinitive is "to be judged." You may not think it's a big difference, between "damned" and "judged," but I think it is an important distinction. I readily agree and heartily believe that every soul will be judged on the last day. We will all be judged. And what's more, we will ALL be found lacking. There is no one, no, not one, who is worthy on his or her own merit.
If anyone is damned, we are all damned. If one is saved, we must all be saved.
First of all, I want to say thank you for your response. Though we disagree, and I doubt we will ever agree on this topic, I appreciate that you are speaking to me with respect. I wanted to respond to just one point in your post.
First of all, this is Mark 16:16. I won't give you a hard time about the typo -- I make them, too.
More importantly, let's look at the original Greek. The word in question is "katakrithesetai." The root of the verb in the infinitive is "to be judged." You may not think it's a big difference, between "damned" and "judged," but I think it is an important distinction. I readily agree and heartily believe that every soul will be judged on the last day. We will all be judged. And what's more, we will ALL be found lacking. There is no one, no, not one, who is worthy on his or her own merit.
If anyone is damned, we are all damned. If one is saved, we must all be saved.
I believe that whatever Yahweh Almighty God does is just..
Who are we to question Almighty Yahweh God?
Go read the Bible, and see what these people are trying to do, they work for the devil and believe that as one they can defeat Yahweh God and break free from him.............
They must eradicate all of the true servants of Almighty Yahweh God, and that is those that accept salvation from Almighty Yahweh God's judgement of sin through Yeshua our Messiah.
The day of wrath is for those that do not accept, if you think this is torture, then you never knew Almighty Yahweh God or his son Yeshua our Messiah.
You have learnt of jesus christ the pagans idea of salvation. love, peace for all......... Well Yeshua our Messiah was of love and peace, but not in the universal, worldly way they promote...
<< 1 Thessalonians 5 >>
King James Version
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Now does this verse not prove that universal peace is not on offer?
Yeshua the Messiah is son of Almighty Yahweh God.
loveme1,
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
To convince:
ex-el-eng'-kho
From G1537 and G1651; to convict fully, that is, (by implication) to punish: - convince.
Now, what do you suppose happens when They have been FULLY CONVICTED?
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
To convince:
ex-el-eng'-kho
From G1537 and G1651; to convict fully, that is, (by implication) to punish: - convince.
Now, what do you suppose happens when They have been FULLY CONVICTED?
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.