The Fiftheen Points of Universial Salvation Refuted

[2knowhim]

They who are alive, they who shall live everlasting, shall never die again. That being so, death has been swallowed up (engulfed). And to where has it been swallowed up to? The lake of fire (Rev 20:14).

As for sin, they who are alive, they who are in the kingdom of God, shall be without sin, seeing that Jesus took their sin away (1 Jn 3:5). The sin nature shall be no more. Sin is not a person, but an action. One is stung with death by sin. If sin will be no more, then how can one be stung with death?
So, yes, when the kingdom of God has been set up on Earth, "Then there will be NO MORE DEATH, AND NO MORE SIN".

But not all are made alive in Christ, seeing that some will receive a resurrection of condemnation. Life belongs to Christ and He gives life to those who are His. But, to the children of wrath, they have nothing to look forward to except, "a certain fearful...judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:27)

This makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

If there is just one person that has not been Redeemed, then the nature of sin in that person would remain, and death would still be the wages of that, how do you not see this.

Do you realize how many scriptures that does away with when talking about the Atonement of Christ?
Don't you realize that The Judgments of God are what destroys the sin Nature, and causes Repentance, and to be made Alive?

He kills and makes Alive, these are not two different occasions here, these things happens within us.
And will happen to All through Christ.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

God will not sentence anyone to "eternal torture". Even the devil will eventually be burned up, destroyed. Exe 28:18, 19

The second death will be just that. A second, permanent death. Annihilation.

I can accept this theory. I don't agree with it, but at least it allows for a merciful yet just God.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

They whose sins are forgiven, shall receive everlasting life.

They whose sins are not forgiven, shall receive a damnable verdict of condemnation from the presence of the Lord and the power of His glory forever. The wicked rejected Him, so shall He reject them.

I would agree with this, except for one thing: by what criteria are people judged? What is it that those whose sins are forgiven, those who shall receive everlasting life, do, that those who are damned, do not do?

And before you answer that question, re-read the entire book of Romans, and then answer: what, exactly, does someone do to get into heaven?

Now you see the problem with any position OTHER than universal salvation?

If the difference between being saved and being damned has to do with what WE do, then we have the problem of works-righteousness, which we know is a heresy. It cannot be something WE do, it is something GOD does.

And how does God make that decision? Answer: he already did. It says so in Scripture:

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son. The debt has already been paid, the decision made. None of us are worthy on our own. All of us are saved under Christ.

 

[shroom2]

I would agree with this, except for one thing: by what criteria are people judged? What is it that those whose sins are forgiven, those who shall receive everlasting life, do, that those who are damned, do not do?

And before you answer that question, re-read the entire book of Romans, and then answer: what, exactly, does someone do to get into heaven?

Now you see the problem with any position OTHER than universal salvation?

If the difference between being saved and being damned has to do with what WE do, then we have the problem of works-righteousness, which we know is a heresy.

Accepting Christ by faith is not works.

It cannot be something WE do, it is something GOD does.

And how does God make that decision? Answer: he already did. It says so in Scripture:

God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son.

Do not leave off " that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". It's kind of important.

The debt has already been paid, the decision made. None of us are worthy on our own. All of us are saved under Christ.

Only if we believe on him.

Universal salvation is not true. Nor is Calvinism.

 

[tribesman]

Woe unto them that judge God in their hearts or think they are holier than God. The Creator can do with His creation as He pleases and He does not have to explain Himself to anyone. He does not owe man anything. He can destroy whatever He creates and there is no evil in doing that.

 

[shroom2]

Woe unto them that judge God in their hearts or think they are holier than God. The Creator can do with His creation as He pleases and He does not have to explain Himself to anyone. He does not owe man anything. He can destroy whatever He creates and there is no evil in doing that.

Sometimes I don't think you understand God at all.

 

[tribesman]

Sometimes I don't think you understand God at all.

And with that you are trying to say? I for one do not "think" you don't understand God. Your adherence to the denial of the deity of Christ as well as to a false gospel conditioned on the sinner (and dispensationalism and other follies) proves that you do not understand Him.

 

[shroom2]

And with that you are trying to say? I for one do not "think" you don't understand God. Your adherence to the denial of the deity of Christ as well as to a false gospel conditioned on the sinner (and dispensationalism and other follies) proves that you do not understand Him.

I believe I do understand Him.

I apologize if I offended you.

Maybe what I should have said is that I am thankful I do not see God as Calvinists do. I completely trust Him, and know that He will never "destroy" me or do anything to cause me harm. He will joyfully save anyone who chooses to want to believe in Him and His Son, Jesus Christ.

I do not understand how Calvinists can trust God. You never know if He will decide to condemn you to destruction.

God loves people, and wants everyone to choose to seek Him and believe on His Son. But He gave man 100% free will, and people are responsible for their lives. God does not "decree" some to salvation and others to destruction.

 

[cfultz3]

I would agree with this, except for one thing: by what criteria are people judged? What is it that those whose sins are forgiven, those who shall receive everlasting life, do, that those who are damned, do not do?

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law. And as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law". (Rom 2:12) "Therefore, we can conclude, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Rom 3:18) So, it is clear, with or without the law, one is judged according to his deeds, according to those things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12, 13) And those who are in Christ, sin is not imputed to their account. (Rom 4:8)

Even those who lie to abound the truth of God is judged as a sinner. (Rom 3:7) But, those of us who are in Christ, when we are judged by the Lord as a sinner, He chastens us so that we should not be condemned with the world. (1Co 11:32)

They who shall receive everlasting life did "live by faith". (Rom 1:17) And if one does not "live by faith", what, then, shall he receive, seeing that, without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6)? "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived..."? (1Co 6:9, Eph 5:5) But, to them, vengence shall be taken. (2Th 1:8), towards them is the wrath of God. (Rom 1:18)

And before you answer that question, re-read the entire book of Romans, and then answer: what, exactly, does someone do to get into heaven?
Now you see the problem with any position OTHER than universal salvation?

To have faith in Christ not based upon works, but upon the leading of the Spirit is how one enters into the kingdom of Heaven. But, do tell, from what of Romans do you see "all shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven?" So, if while living, one is justified by faith, then what of those who did not have faith? Shall their unbelieve be equal to believe? What purpose, then, shall faith serve, shall we not do as the unbeliever and sin, knowing well that we shall be saved according to Universal Salvation? But, then, if we are permitted to live as sinners, why did Jesus preach an active fatih?
　

If the difference between being saved and being damned has to do with what WE do, then we have the problem of works-righteousness, which we know is a heresy. It cannot be something WE do, it is something GOD does.

Faith is a gift of grace from God, it is not a work which we do, but it is given to us by His calling. It is faith and faith alone that we, who are in Christ, shall enter into the Kingdom of God and Christ. Did not our Lord say something along this line, "Believe and you shall be saved"? Listen and understand, when a man in prison receives a pardon, he is forgiven of his "sin" and is freed from his imprisonment. But, when he does not receive a pardon, he is neither forgiven nor set free. Keeping this in mind that we know that those who take part of the second death shall receive an "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2Th 1:9), then how, if one is banned from His presence forevermore, shall he receive a pardon?

So, "the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, is to all and upon all who BELIEVE, for there is no difference. (Rom 3:22)

And how does God make that decision? Answer: he already did. It says so in Scripture:
God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son. The debt has already been paid, the decision made. None of us are worthy on our own. All of us are saved under Christ.

Grunge,

Please, did you not think that I, and hopefully those who would read the thread, would at least go and search the Scriptures myself to prove "whether these things were so". (Act 17:11) Of which "Scriptures are able to make me wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus". (2Ti 3:15)
So, I ask you, "Why did God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son"? The answer is also in John 3:16, "So that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM, should not PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE". One must believe while living, so that he will not perish. If one does not believe while living, will he not, therefore, perish? He "died for all, so that those who are LIVING should not henceforth live to themselves, but to Him which died for them..." (2Co 5:14-15)

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Accepting Christ by faith is not works.

Faith is not a work? Really? Faith is not a personal choice? Hmmm ... If faith is not a personal choice, that means our faith is pre-determined, and if lack of this non-work faith sends us to hell, then it's pre-destination.

If faith is something we choose, it's a work. If it's not something we choose, and that is the judgement, then you're stuck with calvinism.

Thus, the only theology that avoids both the heresies of works-righteousness and calvinism is universal salvation.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Woe unto them that judge God in their hearts or think they are holier than God. The Creator can do with His creation as He pleases and He does not have to explain Himself to anyone. He does not owe man anything. He can destroy whatever He creates and there is no evil in doing that.

Sometimes I don't think you understand God at all.

I didn't understand what tribesman was saying above, either, but let's face it: is there ANY mortal who can possibly comprehend God? shroom, if you think you've got him figured out, you're in for quite a surprise.

 

[shroom2]

Faith is not a work? Really?

Yes.

Faith is not a personal choice?

Yes, faith is a personal choice.

Hmmm ... If faith is not a personal choice, that means our faith is pre-determined, and if lack of this non-work faith sends us to hell, then it's pre-destination.

Faith is a personal choice. Any person can choose to believe.

If faith is something we choose, it's a work.

Why do you think that?

If it's not something we choose, and that is the judgement, then you're stuck with calvinism.

Right. But it is something we choose.

Thus, the only theology that avoids both the heresies of works-righteousness and calvinism is universal salvation.

Choosing to believe is not "works-righteousness". It is simply choosing to believe and have faith in God and His son Jesus Christ. God requires this in order to be saved. Those who hear, but choose to reject, are not saved.

 

[shroom2]

I didn't understand what tribesman was saying above, either, but let's face it: is there ANY mortal who can possibly comprehend God? shroom, if you think you've got him figured out, you're in for quite a surprise.

I do not claim to have Him "figured out". But God does want us to know Him, and there is much we CAN know about Him through knowing His word.

Eph 1:18) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

2 Pet 1:3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

In answer to my question by what criteria are we judged to go to heaven or hell:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law. And as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law".

Ah, so you believe, rather than universal salvation, in universal damnation? For we have ALL sinned, and ALL have fallen short. So if we are judged by our sins, then every one of us is going to hell. And Jesus died for naught.

Faith is a gift of grace from God, it is not a work which we do, but it is given to us by His calling.

I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that God gives the gift of faith to some people, and doesn't grant it to others. How is that not pre-destination?

If faith is something that we have a choice about whether to accept or not, then it is a work, there is something we can do to get us into heaven, and Paul is wrong.

You can't have it both ways. Either it's a work or it isn't. If it isn't a work, then it's something that God decides for us, and then we're looking at pre-destination. If our salvation is up to us, then it is a work.

"So that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM, should not PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE".

Remember the beginning of this debate? "If P then Q" does not imply "If not P then not Q."

John 3:16 tells us, if you believe, then you will not perish but have everlasting life.

You, and many other well-meaning but misled Christians, want to say, "See, that means if you don't believe, you are damned."

But .... OOPS. It doesn't mean that! Remember our introductory logic lesson? This is NOT a given. It may be true, but it is not a given based on John 3:16.

If it is true, that those who do not believe are damned, AND if faith is something we choose, then our salvation is based on something we can choose. If it is true, that those who do not believe are damned, and faith is NOT something we choose, then our salvation is fore-ordained.

So, either (a) we are saved based on something we do, or (b) God pre-determines who is saved, or (c) we are all saved after the judgement and after all our sins are cleansed.

The more sins we have, the more evil must be cleansed out of us. And that cleansing process is painful, don't misunderstand me -- God is just, and God demands justice. Burning sins out of one's soul must indeed be torture. All the Scripture references of burning may or may not be literal, but the sins must be purged somehow, and we will have brought that upon ourselves. Yes, by our evil ways. You could say it's "judgement by works" rather than "salvation by works." But our torture will not be eternal. Jesus' life, death, and glorious resurrection assured that once our sins are purged, we SHALL be saved.

Alleluia, amen!

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

In response to my statement "If faith is something we choose, it is a work:

Why do you think that?

Ummmm .... by the definition of the word "work."

 

[shroom2]

In response to my statement "If faith is something we choose, it is a work:

Ummmm .... by the definition of the word "work."

If you think what you choose to believe in fulfills the definition of the word "work", I don't know what else to say to you.

To me, works would be efforts to stop sinning, doing good deeds, feeding the poor, fasting, going to church on Sunday, etc, etc. Choosing to have faith in something, to believe in something, is not works. It is simple trust in believing that we are saved through what Christ accomplished.

 

[cfultz3]

　

Ah, so you believe, rather than universal salvation, in universal damnation? For we have ALL sinned, and ALL have fallen short. So if we are judged by our sins, then every one of us is going to hell. And Jesus died for naught.

I believe what it says in the rest of the paragraph:

"Therefore, we can conclude, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Rom 3:18) So, it is clear, with or without the law, one is judged according to his deeds, according to those things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12, 13) And those who are in Christ, sin is not imputed to their account. (Rom 4:8)

As to asking me if I believe in "universal damnation", to that it says, they "knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things (which are listed in Rom 1:26-31) are worthy of death..."(Rom 1:32), and that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23), and "all have sinned (Rom 3:23), then the judgment of God is "universal damnation". But, He has offered a solution to that through His Son Jesus Christ. And this is how God shows His righteousness, "by the faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all those who BELIEVE, seeing that there is no difference, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Rom 3:22-23) Still talking about those who believe in v 22, it is said, "being justified freely (rendered righteous freely) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus". (Rom 3:24). So, the righteous is freed from an universal damnation, the sentence of death which we had in ourselves (2Co 1:9), through faith in Christ Jesus. Why? Because those who are in Christ do not have sin imputed to their account. (Rom 4:8). They who are not in Christ will be damned, because the sting of death is sin (1Co 15:56). Unforgiven sin must be punished, and death is its punishment. But, know this, "he who converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death..." (Jas 5:20)
　

I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying that God gives the gift of faith to some people, and doesn't grant it to others. How is that not pre-destination?
If faith is something that we have a choice about whether to accept or not, then it is a work, there is something we can do to get us into heaven, and Paul is wrong.
You can't have it both ways. Either it's a work or it isn't. If it isn't a work, then it's something that God decides for us, and then we're looking at pre-destination. If our salvation is up to us, then it is a work.

The grace which is found in the Gospel is offered to all. It is a gift offered not because of what we have or will do, but because God loves us. Some will choose to accept, others will not. As for you saying "if faith is something that we have a choice about whether to accept or not, then it is a work"(deed), but since it is a free a gift, it is nothing we have done to earn it. Therefore, we did not work for it. If salvation is by faith, then works are nowhere to be found in the process.

As for it being "predestination", it is said, "No man can come to Me except the Father, who has sent Me, draws him....It is written in the prophets 'and they shall be ALL taught of God'. EVERY man, therefore, who has hearkened and has learned from the Father, comes to Me" (Joh 6:44-45) So all are invited to come to Christ by the drawing of the Father. But, it is those who hearkenes and learns from the Father, which do come to Christ. So faith is not a work, but a gift from God offered to all.
　

Remember the beginning of this debate? "If P then Q" does not imply "If not P then not Q."
John 3:16 tells us, if you believe, then you will not perish but have everlasting life.
You, and many other well-meaning but misled Christians, want to say, "See, that means if you don't believe, you are damned."
But .... OOPS. It doesn't mean that! Remember our introductory logic lesson? This is NOT a given. It may be true, but it is not a given based on John 3:16.

　
Jesus said, "If you believe not that I am He (the Light of the World v12) , you shall die in your sins." So, if one does not believe that He is who He says He is, then he is damned. Therfore, it is only logical to conlude from John 3:16 that"...if you don't believe, you are damned" is a given for those who know Scripture.
　

If it is true, that those who do not believe are damned, AND if faith is something we choose, then our salvation is based on something we can choose. If it is true, that those who do not believe are damned, and faith is NOT something we choose, then our salvation is fore-ordained.
So, either (a) we are saved based on something we do, or (b) God pre-determines who is saved, or (c) we are all saved after the judgement and after all our sins are cleansed.

Please see the above ecxplanations.
　

The more sins we have, the more evil must be cleansed out of us. And that cleansing process is painful, don't misunderstand me -- God is just, and God demands justice. Burning sins out of one's soul must indeed be torture. All the Scripture references of burning may or may not be literal, but the sins must be purged somehow, and we will have brought that upon ourselves. Yes, by our evil ways. You could say it's "judgement by works" rather than "salvation by works." But our torture will not be eternal. Jesus' life, death, and glorious resurrection assured that once our sins are purged, we SHALL be saved.
Alleluia, amen!

Why not, instead, accept that Jesus has purged all sins upon the cross for those who accept Him as their only acceptable sacrifice to God. And know that, when you die and face judgment, you will be rewarded with life, and not a verdict of condemnation, an everlasting destruction from the presense of the Lord and the power of His glory? God is indeed just, in that He gave us a way to be saved from His wrath through the spilt blood of His Son. In those who believe, again, their sins are purged. Salvation is offered to the living, not to those of the second death.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

If you think what you choose to believe in fulfills the definition of the word "work", I don't know what else to say to you.

Therein lies the rub. If you think it isn't, I don't know what else to say to you. It's something you DO. How is something you do not something you do?

To me, works would be efforts to stop sinning, doing good deeds, feeding the poor, fasting, going to church on Sunday, etc, etc.

Yes, those are all works. Love God, love your neighbors. This are the two great commandments, and pretty much any work can be put into one of those two categories.

Please explain to me what the difference is between loving your neighbor and loving faith in God? How is one a "work" and the other not?

Choosing to have faith in something, to believe in something, is not works. It is simple trust in believing that we are saved through what Christ accomplished.

If it's something you do, it's a work, and if it's a work, it's something you do. By definition. This is one of those cases where the statement and its converse are both true. P=Q and Q=P.

I just don't see how you can do something without doing it.

And I think we've found the root of the problem. As long as you put "faith" into a category in which it is not a work, you will be able to say that faith is the requirement to get into heaven, which enables you to avoid the predestination heresy. And as long as I put "faith" into a category in which it IS a work, it is necessary to accept universal salvation.

 

[shroom2]

And I think we've found the root of the problem.

Apparently so.

As long as you put "faith" into a category in which it is not a work, you will be able to say that faith is the requirement to get into heaven, which enables you to avoid the predestination heresy. And as long as I put "faith" into a category in which it IS a work, it is necessary to accept universal salvation.

And yet the bible plainly teaches that we are saved by faith, and that not all will be saved.

Rom 10:9 is how to get saved. Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. If people hear, and choose not to accept it, they will not be saved.

There will be two resurrections. The resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. If people are judged unworthy, they will be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed.

There are just too many sections of scripture plainly against universal salvation.

 

[cfultz3]

If it's something you do, it's a work, and if it's a work, it's something you do. By definition. This is one of those cases where the statement and its converse are both true. P=Q and Q=P.

I just don't see how you can do something without doing it.

And I think we've found the root of the problem. As long as you put "faith" into a category in which it is not a work, you will be able to say that faith is the requirement to get into heaven, which enables you to avoid the predestination heresy. And as long as I put "faith" into a category in which it IS a work, it is necessary to accept universal salvation.

The grace which is found in the Gospel is offered to all. It is a gift offered not because of what we have or will do, but because God loves us. Some will choose to accept, others will not. As for you saying "if faith is something that we have a choice about whether to accept or not, then it is a work"(deed), but since it is a free a gift, it is nothing we have done to earn it. Therefore, we did not work for it. If salvation is by faith, then works are nowhere to be found in the process.

As for it being "predestination", it is said, "No man can come to Me except the Father, who has sent Me, draws him....It is written in the prophets 'and they shall be ALL taught of God'. EVERY man, therefore, who has hearkened and has learned from the Father, comes to Me" (Joh 6:44-45) So all are invited to come to Christ by the drawing of the Father. But, it is those who hearkenes and learns from the Father, which do come to Christ. So faith is not a work, but a gift from God offered to all.