the Gospel v moralism

[Jason0047]

Abraham, David, etc sinned but were reckoned righteous for they had an obedient faith. A Christian cannot commit the immoral sins as David did and remain saved. A faithful obedience leads that Christian to repent and change from the immoral lifestyle to a moral, righteous lifestyle required by Christ. And God's grace is extended to those with an obedient faith that do repent. A Christian cannot live an immoral lifestyle for God will render unto every man according to his deeds. Any man with immoral unrighteous deeds will be lost, therefore how a person acts determines his eternal fate.
Man cannot justify himself for God justifies, yet God justifies those with an obedient faith not those who do nothing.

I am not arguing that a true believer does nothing and or that they will live unrighteously. We both agree on the final result in identifying a true believer, but we do not agree on how a believer perceives these things, though.

From my understanding: You believe works save you in addition to the gospel (Which involves belief, repentance, and acceptance of Christ).

I believe the gospel can save you right here and right now with no added works (like baptism, speaking in tongues, etc.). I believe the Scriptures teach you can have an assurance of your salvation easily. For Jesus said His burden was easy and that it was light. I believe a saint will take action and live holy according to God's Word. Not so as to be saved, but because they are saved. If a believer slips up into any known sin, they need to confess it and forsake it with God's help. If a believer is abiding in unrepentant sin, then they are not saved. But a person who has truly repented will be a new creation in Christ, though.

In other words, you believe caterpillars must create make shift wings in order to fly up in the heavens (I.e. the sky). But I believe a caterpillar will be transformed into a butterfly one day whereby it will naturally fly up in the heavens (I.e. the sky).

 

[SeaBass]

I am not arguing that a true believer does nothing and or that they will live unrighteously. We both agree on the final result in identifying a true believer, but we do not agree on how a believer perceives these things, though.

From my understanding: You believe works save you in addition to the gospel (Which involves belief, repentance, and acceptance of Christ).

I believe the gospel can save you right here and right now with no added works (like baptism, speaking in tongues, etc.). I believe the Scriptures teach you can have an assurance of your salvation easily. For Jesus said His burden was easy and that it was light. I believe a saint will take action and live holy according to God's Word. Not so as to be saved, but because they are saved. If a believer slips up into any known sin, they need to confess it and forsake it with God's help. If a believer is abiding in unrepentant sin, then they are not saved. But a person who has truly repented will be a new creation in Christ, though.

In other words, you believe caterpillars must create make shift wings in order to fly up in the heavens (I.e. the sky). But I believe a caterpillar will be transformed into a butterfly one day whereby it will naturally fly up in the heavens (I.e. the sky).

I see nowhere that the gospel teaches one can do nothing to be saved but must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism Mk 16:16. All are works and all these verses put these works BEFORE salvation. And it's by doing these righteous works of God that God reckons one righteous. One cannot be of God until they first do God's righteousness, 1 Jn 3:10.

 

[Jason0047]

I see nowhere that the gospel teaches one can do nothing to be saved but must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism Mk 16:16. All are works and all these verses put these works BEFORE salvation. And it's by doing these righteous works of God that God reckons one righteous. One cannot be of God until they first do God's righteousness, 1 Jn 3:10.

I am not saying believers do nothing for God. They do so as a result of having been transformed spiritually by true repentance (Just as a butterfly flies after their transformation from being a caterpillar). They do so because they are saved by God's grace and the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost. A believer does not do things so as to be saved (Like a caterpillar trying to create artificial wings so as to fly). Jesus saves and it's not you or what you can do for Jesus. For no man shall be justified by the deeds of the Law. A believer will naturally do things for God because they are born of God.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, consider the thief on the cross. He was not baptized; And God is not a respecter of persons. Paul said he came not to baptize. In Acts 11:15-16 Peter recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit..." (10:47).

Source used:
GTY Mobile
(Note: Not all views expressed by GTY may not reflect my own in the Bible).

 

[Jason0047]

After he had seen this, he declared, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit..." (10:47).

In other words, if you believe baptism saves you, then you must also believe that a person who has the Holy Spirit before water baptism is not saved. For the passsage above here is saying Cornelius had the Hoy Spirit before he had gotten baptized. So you are basically saying, if I was on my way to get baptized after I repented and accepted Jesus Christ, And if I scheduled a baptism at a local church, but then I got hit by a truck and died before I get baptized. What then? Just bad luck?

 

[psychomom]

Abraham, David, etc sinned but were reckoned righteous for they had an obedient faith. A Christian cannot commit the immoral sins as David did and remain saved. A faithful obedience leads that Christian to repent and change from the immoral lifestyle to a moral, righteous lifestyle required by Christ. And God's grace is extended to those with an obedient faith that do repent. A Christian cannot live an immoral lifestyle for God will render unto every man according to his deeds. Any man with immoral unrighteous deeds will be lost, therefore how a person acts determines his eternal fate.
Man cannot justify himself for God justifies, yet God justifies those with an obedient faith not those who do nothing.

no, see...that's moralism...not the Gospel.

 

[tribesman]

Moralism is a very real threat to the Gospel and it is dangerous because it always focuses on self and its efforts and it gives a false hope of assurance because it tends to focus on performance (oh..I am doing this and that and not anymore do this and that, so I am OK with God) while failing to see the unreachable standard that requires an absolute perfection that we in and of ourselves will never reach on this earth. That's why we must always focus on and set our hope to Christ and His work in our stead alone. Else we are soon trying to be justified and sanctified by our efforts of law-keeping. Being sidetracked and tricked.

 

[psychomom]

Moralism is a very real threat to the Gospel and it is dangerous because it always focuses on self and its efforts and it gives a false hope of assurance because it tends to focus on performance (oh..I am doing this and that and not anymore do this and that, so I am OK with God) while failing to see the unreachable standard that requires an absolute perfection that we in and of ourselves will never reach on this earth. That's why we must always focus on and set our hope to Christ and His work in our stead alone. Else we are soon trying to be justified and sanctified by our efforts of law-keeping. Being sidetracked and tricked.

Matt 7:22
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

 

[tribesman]

Matt 7:22
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

Notice the focus of that crowd: "did we not...". That tells you something.

 

[Jason0047]

There are two wrong extremes on this point. One is "Antinomianism", which teaches that no moral law does not apply to the believer whatsoever whereby they can live any way they like (Such as murdering, hating, lusting, stealing, coveting, etc.) and still be saved (Which is evil because it is saying good guys can act like the devil with no remorse and be in God's good graces). Then there "Works-Salvation-ism" which attempts to base one's salvation on what you do (Which undermines the work of Christ and makes you the Savior). Then there is balanced Biblical view on salvation. It is the gospel. You are saved by repenting of your sins and accepting Jesus Christ - Believing He died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead 3 days later. If one slips up into a sin, they confess it. Holiness and fruitful works will be a natural result of having been born again spiritually in accepting the gospel legitimately. Honliness and and fruitful works do not save you in and of themselves, but they merely show that you have been saved and or that Christ lives within you. No fruitful works and or holiness in your life whatsoever, then there is a chance you did not really accept Jesus Christ for real or you are refusing to follow Christ and have slipped back into the old man (refusing to let Christ to continue in your life). Salvation is a person (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not a license to sin; Nor is salvation in what you do.

 

[JamesMcClay]

Moralism is a very real threat to the Gospel and it is dangerous because it always focuses on self and its efforts and it gives a false hope of assurance because it tends to focus on performance (oh..I am doing this and that and not anymore do this and that, so I am OK with God) while failing to see the unreachable standard that requires an absolute perfection that we in and of ourselves will never reach on this earth. That's why we must always focus on and set our hope to Christ and His work in our stead alone. Else we are soon trying to be justified and sanctified by our efforts of law-keeping. Being sidetracked and tricked.

EVERYztIME you look at your deeds, you are no longer walking in the Gospel. There is no law in CHRIST. Many claim the trust Christ fully, but then find false comfort because they don't drink, fornicate or do any other number of outward sins. But still gossip, back bite, judge, get angry, lust. It is not what goes into the mouth thay defiles a man, but WHAT COMES OUT. Can you hear?

It is not your deeds that condemn you, but the spirit behind your deeds that causes you to sin. In other words EVERT DEED you do has a spirit behind it. One of obedience io Christ or one of obedience to devils. THE DEED DOES NOT MATTER -- only the spirit behind the deed. CAN YOU HEAR????

 

[tribesman]

EVERYztIME you look at your deeds, you are no longer walking in the Gospel. There is no law in CHRIST. Many claim the trust Christ fully, but then find false comfort because they don't drink, fornicate or do any other number of outward sins. But still gossip, back bite, judge, get angry, lust. It is not what goes into the mouth thay defiles a man, but WHAT COMES OUT. Can you hear?

It is not your deeds that condemn you, but the spirit behind your deeds that causes you to sin. In other words EVERT DEED you do has a spirit behind it. One of obedience io Christ or one of obedience to devils. THE DEED DOES NOT MATTER -- only the spirit behind the deed. CAN YOU HEAR????

Not sure I get your point. You are arguing with me? In what way does our positions differ?

 

[SeaBass]

I am not saying believers do nothing for God. They do so as a result of having been transformed spiritually by true repentance (Just as a butterfly flies after their transformation from being a caterpillar). They do so because they are saved by God's grace and the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost. A believer does not do things so as to be saved (Like a caterpillar trying to create artificial wings so as to fly). Jesus saves and it's not you or what you can do for Jesus. For no man shall be justified by the deeds of the Law. A believer will naturally do things for God because they are born of God.

One either does something or does nothing - cannot do both at the same time.

No verse I have seen says the unbeliever does nothing to be saved nor have I found a verse that says the believer/Christian does nothing to remain saved. If an unbeliever "does not do things to be saved" as you said, then the unbeliever does not have to do the work of believing or repenting or confessing or being baptized. In other words, you are claiming the unbeliever, impenitent, the denier of Christ and those in their unforgiven sins will be saved...which is not possible. It requires doing something to be a believer that is not impenitent, that is not a denier of Christ that is not lost in his unforgiven sins.

I think everyone on this forum believes "Jesus saves". The debate comes about from WHO does He save and WHY?

Again, no verse I have seen says Jesus saves those who do nothing. But saves those that "obey Him" (Heb 5:9) in doing as Christ said in believing repenting confessing and being baptized, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3.5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16.


If Christ did NOT put conditions of obedience (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) upon salvation then WHO and WHY does He save? Does He save some people just randomly? For some unknown reason?


Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

"The law" here refers to the law of Moses and no one can be justified by keeping the law of Moses. But one is jsutified by obeying Christ NT gospel/NT law through belief repentance confession and baptism. As Paul said in Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.Being then made free from sin,(justified) ye became the servants of righteousness."

That form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart to then be freed from sin was Christ's NT gospel that includes the command to be baptized as the Romans were, Rom 6:1-7.

 

[SeaBass]

Also, consider the thief on the cross. He was not baptized; And God is not a respecter of persons. Paul said he came not to baptize. In Acts 11:15-16 Peter recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit..." (10:47).

Source used:
GTY Mobile
(Note: Not all views expressed by GTY may not reflect my own in the Bible).

--The thief one the cross lived and died before Christ's NT gospel came into effect that commands baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. The thief is therefore NOT an example of NT salvation.

--There is no proof the thief was never baptized, he COULD have been of those in Mk 1:5.

--Rom 1:16 it was in God's plan that the salvation of the gospel go first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. Peter was chosen to take the salvation of the gospel to the Gentiles. God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves Mk 16:16/remits sins Acts 2:38/cut away the body of sin, Col 2:12;14. So in Acts 10:47 anyone, any Jew that tried to forbid water baptism (God's means of salvation) to the Gentiles would be fighting against God's plan of salvation going to the Gentiles.

 

[SeaBass]

In other words, if you believe baptism saves you, then you must also believe that a person who has the Holy Spirit before water baptism is not saved. For the passage above here is saying Cornelius had the Hoy Spirit before he had gotten baptized. So you are basically saying, if I was on my way to get baptized after I repented and accepted Jesus Christ, And if I scheduled a baptism at a local church, but then I got hit by a truck and died before I get baptized. What then? Just bad luck?

There is no verse that says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins as the bible says water baptism saves, remits sins. SO baptism with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the personal salvation of Cornelius. God had (1) an angel appear to Cornelius telling him to send for Peter. God (2) gave Peter a vision showing salvation was meant for the Gentiles and not Jews only and lastly God (3) baptized the Gentiles with the HS to prove to the Jews salvation was not just for the Jews but Gentiles also. The culmination of God doing these things upon the Jews? "When they (Jews in Jerusalem Acts 11:2) heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." So baptizing the Gentiles with the HS had nothing to do with their personal salvation but God's way in proving to the Jews salvation was not just for the Jews. In other bible examples of those that were water baptized, as with the eunuch, he was only water baptized not baptized with the Holy Spirit. The eunuch was baptized with the baptism of Christ's great commission. In this great commission of Mt 28;19,20; MK 16:15,16 Christ commissioned His disciples to water baptized for humans cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit. And this water baptism of the great commission was commanded, was how disciples were made and was to be perpetually taught by all disciples for all time unto the end of the world.


What if an atheist was on a plane that was moments away from smashing nose first into the ground at 500 mph. He begins to think in his last moments there is a higher power and life after death but dies in the crash not knowing who or what to believe in. If he had just had more time he would have come to believe in Christ. Will he be saved in his unbelief anyway?

You posted in post #63 "A believer does not do things so as to be saved..."
You curiously posted above "after I repented and accepted Jesus Christ"


Now does an unbeliever do NOTHING or do SOMETHING to be saved. Here you seem to be on the side that the unbeliever must do SOMETHING (repent and accept Jesus) to be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

no, see...that's moralism...not the Gospel.

God requires a person to be obedient/moral to be saved. No one will be saved by being disobedient/immoral.
Abraham nor David would have been saved without an obedient faith.

 

[SeaBass]

Moralism is a very real threat to the Gospel and it is dangerous because it always focuses on self and its efforts and it gives a false hope of assurance because it tends to focus on performance (oh..I am doing this and that and not anymore do this and that, so I am OK with God) while failing to see the unreachable standard that requires an absolute perfection that we in and of ourselves will never reach on this earth. That's why we must always focus on and set our hope to Christ and His work in our stead alone. Else we are soon trying to be justified and sanctified by our efforts of law-keeping. Being sidetracked and tricked.

Acts 10:35 Peter said those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.

If working God's righteousness is "moralism" then I am a "moralist".

 

[SeaBass]

Matt 7:22
Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

Back up a verse to verse 21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The ones that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH the will of the Father. If doing the will of the Father is "moralism" then I am a "moralist".

The context continues:

Mt 7: 24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

If DOING what Christ said is "moralism" then I am a "moralist" that built his house upon a rock whom Christ considers to be wise.

 

[SeaBass]

Notice the focus of that crowd: "did we not...". That tells you something.

Focus on "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Those in verse 22 were doing many things but not doing the one thing that would save them, that being, not doing the will of the Father.

 

[dcontroversal]

--The thief one the cross lived and died before Christ's NT gospel came into effect that commands baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. The thief is therefore NOT an example of NT salvation.

--There is no proof the thief was never baptized, he COULD have been of those in Mk 1:5.
QUOTE]

More contradictions for the king of confusion and contradictions......

LIVED and DIED before N.T. gospel came into effect that commands baptism<---farce number 1 and erroneous to boot!
A) All of the O.T. saints, disciples, Apostles etc. before the death burial and resurrection

No Proof that the thief was NEVER BAPTIZED<---farce number two as it is OBVIOUS BY THE TEXT that the THIEF met the LORD that DAY and acknowledged the LORDSHIP of JESUS....and JESUS acknowledged said faith...

You ignore the truth because it contradicts your water/works Campbellite doctrine which is obvious to MOST!