the Gospel v moralism

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psychomom

Guest
#41
There is a big difference for desiring to be moral, and thinking we are moral.
agreed!

and i'd say it this way...
there's a big difference between morality--living God's way
and moralism--thinking living God's way in some manner adds to Jesus' finished Work.

what do you think?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,485
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#42

To start with, the gospel is a very specific and precise message.


The gospel is NOT a lot of complicated teachings, or a lot of complicated theology.
It's very specific.

The scripture IDENTIFIES the gospel as being the specific message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.


1Co 15:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that (1) Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that (2) he was buried, and that (3) he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"



 
Mar 12, 2014
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#43
agreed!

and i'd say it this way...
there's a big difference between morality--living God's way
and moralism--thinking living God's way in some manner adds to Jesus' finished Work.

what do you think?

Jesus' death on the cross does not allow men to live anyway they so choose and still be saved. Jesus' death requires that men live up to a certain standard to be saved . Rom 2:6 God will render unto every man according to his deeds so Christ's death does not allow one to become a Christian while living immorally or remain a saved Christian while living immorally (2 Pet 1:5-10)
Mt 25, moral behavior determines if one is on the right or left hand.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#44
When one has morals they have a set code of conduct. That is what being righteousness means. The Bible talks about two different types of righteousness.

#1. There is people's man made righteousness (or morals) whereby they try to attempt to live by righteously by the Law; (And)

#2. There is God's righteousness which can be imputed to a believer by repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (And continuing in His righteousness).​

No man can be righteous on their own merits. For no man is justified by the Law. We all fall short of the glory of God at one point or another within our lives, which means we are not up to the task in perfectly living righteously 100% of the time by the Law because we are all bound to slip up at some point within our lives ---- Thereby, making all righteousness as filthy rags. For if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking them all. That is why man needs a Savior. A Savior named Jesus Christ who is God Almighty in the flesh who died for our sins so as to be our righteous substitute. For Jesus Christ was the only One who walked perfectly and righteously by the Law. Why? Because Jesus is God and not a mere man like us. He took on our sins within His physical body and died within our place (As the punishment for sin). So if we slip up and fall, we have God's grace to fall back upon in confessing our sins to Jesus (So as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness). For when we repent and accept Jesus, He literally imputes his righteousness to us (And we have a changed heart and life). Then from that point it becomes about conforming more to the image of Christ and allowing His righteousness to flow thru you. That is true righteousness. God's righteousness which is imputed to a person when they repent of their sins and accept Jesus whereby they will allow Christ's righteousness to continue to flow thru them (By walking after the Spirit and following those Commands in the New Testament ~ And not the Old Law ~ within God's Word).
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#45
When one has morals they have a set code of conduct. That is what being righteousness means. The Bible talks about two different types of righteousness.
#1. There is people's man made righteousness (or morals) whereby they try to attempt to live by righteously by the Law; (And)

#2. There is God's righteousness which can be imputed to a believer by repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ (And continuing in His righteousness).​

No man can be righteous on their own merits. For no man is justified by the Law. We all fall short of the glory of God at one point or another within our lives, which means we are not up to the task in perfectly living righteously 100% of the time by the Law because we are all bound to slip up at some point within our lives ---- Thereby, making all righteousness as filthy rags. For if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking them all. That is why man needs a Savior. A Savior named Jesus Christ who is God Almighty in the flesh who died for our sins so as to be our righteous substitute. For Jesus Christ was the only One who walked perfectly and righteously by the Law. Why? Because Jesus is God and not a mere man like us. He took on our sins within His physical body and died within our place (As the punishment for sin). So if we slip up and fall, we have God's grace to fall back upon in confessing our sins to Jesus (So as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness). For when we repent and accept Jesus, He literally imputes his righteousness to us (And we have a changed heart and life). Then from that point it becomes about conforming more to the image of Christ and allowing His righteousness to flow thru you. That is true righteousness. God's righteousness which is imputed to a person when they repent of their sins and accept Jesus whereby they will allow Christ's righteousness to continue to flow thru them (By walking after the Spirit and following those Commands in the New Testament ~ And not the Old Law ~ within God's Word).
A person is changed spiritually (i.e. born again) when they repent and accept Jesus Christ. This results in Christ imputing His righteousness to a person. Christians are not righteous in just following a set of select rules in the New Testament. Obeying the New Testament Commands is the result of salvation and it is merely the proof that they have allowed Christ to work His righteousness in them. We are saved by Christ's mercy and grace. From that point, Christ's righteousness (Not your own righteousness) then moves within one's life (After they are saved by grace).
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#46
Jesus' death on the cross does not allow men to live anyway they so choose and still be saved. Jesus' death requires that men live up to a certain standard to be saved . Rom 2:6 God will render unto every man according to his deeds so Christ's death does not allow one to become a Christian while living immorally or remain a saved Christian while living immorally (2 Pet 1:5-10)
Mt 25, moral behavior determines if one is on the right or left hand.
But even many of great men of faith have sinned. That is why we need God's grace to fall back upon --- which nulifies one trying to be justified by Law keeping alone. For if we slip up in keeping NT Law, what do we do? Do a bunch more good works? No. We get right with God thru confessing our sins so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. Now, I am not proposing that one should live any way they like and or in sin because of this. No, no. Most certainly not. Paul asks the question: Shall we continue in sin? Paul replies. God forbid. For the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. But if we focus on trying to justify ourselves by looking to what we do every day, we miss the point. We are saved right here and right now by God's grace. You don't have to do something tomorrow in order to still be saved. Yes, a believer will naturally do those things that God commands Him to do. For a servant is not above His master. But believers obey Him not of any threat to maintain their standing with God, but because they have a changed heart, and because Christ lives within them.
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
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#47
i told a friend i'd try this, so, if you will, help me?

what is the Gospel?
what is moralism?

what is the difference?
is there a difference?

where is the focus of each?

thanks!

The gospel is the good news that Jesus has saved us and made the unloved, his beloved. (Romans 9:25-26)
Those who were separated are now included. Despite us being us.


Moralism is to adhere to a system of morality (despite us being us)


The gospel focuses on freedom.

Moralism, though necessary for a stable society, enforces us, despite us being us :)



[ us- (we)- sin]
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#48
Morals are not inherently wrong or bad just because men try to live by them and yet fail to do so. Just as the Internet is not inherently wrong or bad because one can access bad things from it. It's how you respond to each thing that makes it bad. In other words, a person can use the internet as a force for good or a force for evil. It's the same with morals. Jesus is not against a person in having morals. For God created all true and good morals. What is wrong is when people think that by having some morals or in keeping the morals some of the time makes them right with God. For no man was ever able to keep the Law (or a perfect standard of morality or morals) his entire life. Man falls short of morality and moral keeping. So man needs a Savior who was perfectly moral or who did keep the Law righteously. For Jesus was no ordinary man. For Jesus is God. So it is by repenting of our sins to Jesus when we break our moral code (Whereas He never did, nor could He ever do so). Jesus can cleanse of all unrighteousness or in breaking what we know to be right (i.e. morals). So keeping morals is not bad in and of itself. It is the thinking that you can be justified by a life morality when when we are not like God (Jesus Christ) who was able to keep them perfectly.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#49
Max brings up a good point.
let's identify the Gospel in scripture?

2 Cor 5:21
God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

any others you can think of?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#50
Max brings up a good point.
let's identify the Gospel in scripture?

2 Cor 5:21
God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

any others you can think of?
After Repentance & Accepting Jesus - God Imputes His Righteousness to us:
(Then we continue to abide in His righteousness):

Philippians 3:9

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

2 Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed"

Romans 3:22
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Romans 5:19
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Romans 10:3-4
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Jeremiah 33:16
"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

Isaiah 45:24
"Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."

Isaiah 61:10
"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels."​
 
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psychomom

Guest
#51
After Repentance & Accepting Jesus - God Imputes His Righteousness to us:
(Then we continue to abide in His righteousness):


thanks, Jason. comprehensive! :)

can we repent (of our sins) before God saves us?

 
Jul 22, 2014
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#52
thanks, Jason. comprehensive! :)
Thank you. I forgot one New Testament passage (that is a quote from the OT).

Romans 4:3
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (c.f. cross reference with Genesis 15:6).

can we repent (of our sins) before God saves us?
We Are Not Righteous:

Isaiah 64:6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Romans 3:9-12
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"


That is Why We Need To Repent & Accept Jesus Christ:


For Repentance is a part of believing in Jesus Christ. For Jesus Christ preached people to repent. For He said,

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matthew 4:17)​
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:5)


For Jesus taught about repentance in the Parable of the Tax Collector (Publican) and the Pharisee:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
(Luke 18:10-14)


Matthew 4:17
– “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

This was His message from the beginning of His ministry.

Mark 1:14-15 – “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, [15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

Jesus taught that repentance is not only to forgive us of our sins but it is also to sin no more, too.

John 8:10-11
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, 'Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?' She said, 'No man, Lord.' And Jesus said unto her, 'Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.'

Matthew 27:3 KJV says that Judas “repented”, when he returned the 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. He said: “I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood.”

However, was that "true repentance"?
What did Judas do next?
Well, he went out and hanged himself!

Why?
He was sorry … but it was not a "Godly Sorrow."
He was "sorry" he did wrong …
"sorry" he got caught …
"sorry" it turned out the way it did.
But … "Repentance" is when you bring your sins to Jesus. Judas never did that.

For the Bible says, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1). "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:6-8).
 
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#53
i told a friend i'd try this, so, if you will, help me?

what is the Gospel?
what is moralism?

what is the difference?
is there a difference?

where is the focus of each?

thanks!
The Gospel is the spreading of the real truth, and morals are righteous behaviors.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#54

That is Why We Need To Repent & Accept Jesus Christ:

For Repentance is a part of believing in Jesus Christ. For Jesus Christ preached people to repent. For He said,

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matthew 4:17)​
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:5)​


sooo...do you think the repentance there is something like:
my mind has been changed...i believe God?
like, i agree with God?



For Jesus taught about repentance in the Parable of the Tax Collector (Publican) and the Pharisee:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
(Luke 18:10-14)

and that's an interesting parable to me, because the publican didn't do anything other than confess he was a sinner in need of mercy. (and he knew where to find it.)
yet the Lord said he was justified.
that's the Gospel.
:)
 
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phil112

Guest
#55
thanks for the response, Phil. :)

would you say there are people inside the Church who also believe that?
Oh, without a doubt. Always remember, satan goes to church more than most church-goers. He is sitting in the pew waiting for you to sit down so he can whisper in your ear, and he is the last one to leave. Very, very few chuches, no doubt, that are Godly enough that satan dares not enter.

Phil,

you are so right when you declare that Jesus Christ created the phenomena of Morality.
but life show us that there are (2) versions, and both are Biblical -
(SPIRITUAL-GODLY-MORALITY) vs. (WORLDLY-LETTER-MORALITY)

although before my or my wife's conversion, we were each at different levels of
worldly-moral-standards, such as others that we knew and grew up with.

for the 'most part', my wife and myself, 'before conversion', paid our debts:
would this be considered = (worldly-moral)?
choosing not to steal? = (worldly-moral)?
and so on....

after conversion, the difference was definitely evident to us, as we recognized
the Holy Spirit working and changing our hearts and minds.
That's give one something to mull over, otn, if I may abbreviate that. I think it may be that when we come to Christ we finally discover, we finally understand, why we have always had the urge to do good and resist hurting others. As you noted, both aspect originate from God, and finding the author of that concept of good enlightens us, shows us what He is and what we've been missing out on.
 
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oldernotwiser

Guest
#56
repentance is a mix of many things. it is first the love of god and the realization that we have offended the one who died for us but it is also empathy, understanding and even feeling the hurt we have done to others
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#57
sooo...do you think the repentance there is something like:
my mind has been changed...i believe God?
like, i agree with God?

and that's an interesting parable to me, because the publican didn't do anything other than confess he was a sinner in need of mercy. (and he knew where to find it.)
yet the Lord said he was justified.
that's the Gospel.
:)
As you may know, the Scriptures cannot be understood on isolating just a certain passage or two. To have a complete understanding of repentance, we have to look at the whole of Scripture. Psalm 51 is a great example for understanding one aspect of repentance. For David repents of his sin of adultery and murder and actually asks God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. David asks to create a new heart within him. 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 agree with this. 1 John 1:9 says that thru confessing our sins, we are actually cleansed of all unrighteousness. This would be all past unrighteousness because you can't confess future sins because we do not own time machines. Oh, and all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17). So when we confess, we are actually being cleansed of sin. That is what the parable of the Tax Collector is about. The pharisee who thought he was God's child and better than the tax collector was not as justified as the tax collector who admitted in the fact that he was a sinner openly before God. This was not a one time event or entrance into the kingdom, but a continual heart attitude that both of these men had. For the parable is not talking about entrance into heaven but in having a continual right mind set towards God. For even the thief on the cross acknowledge that he did wrong while on the cross before the Lord. Yes, repentance involves turning from one's sin, too (i.e. a Change of mind - Where you do not desire to sin anymore). But we also have to say we are sorry for our sins and or admit that we are sinner before the Lord desiring his mercy).

Now, the Spirit will convict a person to repent of course. If a believer refuses to repent before God of their wicked ways and they continue to sin, I believe they are in spiritual danger. For God does not force salvation on anyone. Otherwise everyone would be saved. But narrow is the way unto life, and few be there that find it. In addition, if God did force believers who abide in unrepentant sin into Heaven, then that would be forced love. But repentance is about always being humble and having a broken heart before God and in striving to follow Him in all you do (According to His Word - Walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus). For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but who walk after the Spirit. In other words, if a believer starts to walk after the flesh, they are in danger of the "Condemnation." (Please see the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21, too).





 
Mar 12, 2014
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#58
But even many of great men of faith have sinned. That is why we need God's grace to fall back upon --- which nulifies one trying to be justified by Law keeping alone. For if we slip up in keeping NT Law, what do we do? Do a bunch more good works? No. We get right with God thru confessing our sins so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. Now, I am not proposing that one should live any way they like and or in sin because of this. No, no. Most certainly not. Paul asks the question: Shall we continue in sin? Paul replies. God forbid. For the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. But if we focus on trying to justify ourselves by looking to what we do every day, we miss the point. We are saved right here and right now by God's grace. You don't have to do something tomorrow in order to still be saved. Yes, a believer will naturally do those things that God commands Him to do. For a servant is not above His master. But believers obey Him not of any threat to maintain their standing with God, but because they have a changed heart, and because Christ lives within them.
Abraham, David, etc sinned but were reckoned righteous for they had an obedient faith. A Christian cannot commit the immoral sins as David did and remain saved. A faithful obedience leads that Christian to repent and change from the immoral lifestyle to a moral, righteous lifestyle required by Christ. And God's grace is extended to those with an obedient faith that do repent. A Christian cannot live an immoral lifestyle for God will render unto every man according to his deeds. Any man with immoral unrighteous deeds will be lost, therefore how a person acts determines his eternal fate.
Man cannot justify himself for God justifies, yet God justifies those with an obedient faith not those who do nothing.
 
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psalm6819

Guest
#59
SeaBass, do you really believe that everytime one sins they loose thier salvation? It denigrates the Blood of Christ. The Bible says the Holy Spirit seals us. (our spirit not our flesh) What do you think that Pauls was talking about.. the good that I would do.. God is faithful to us even when we are not to Him. Have you read Hosea?

My tone is not snarky, I guess it goes to the nature of God-who desires mercy not judgement, that's why He sent Jesus.
 
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psalm6819

Guest
#60
Revelation says the fearful and unbeleiving(among others) will be cast inot the lake of fire so do you confess everytime you have a fear? Do you confess when you have a doubt?