The Gospels and the Mystery
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No. That's not at all what I'm saying. Did you read what Jesus said that I quoted?
I too can ask the same type of questions:
Are you saying that you don't believe what Jesus said?
Are you saying that Jesus was remiss by not mentioning His death and resurrection in the Kingdom Gospel He commanded of His disciples?
Why didn't He mention the preaching of His death and resurrection to His disciples in the Gospel He commanded them to preach?
So, we see that even Jesus left out the preaching of His death and resurrection in His own Gospel message. He obviously had a reason for leaving that out at that time. He did not command the preaching of those elements until He commanded it of Paul. Why is that? Without doing what so many others do by shoving that into Christ's Gospel He commanded, as some are in the habit of doing, why the omission? Why do so many have to assume that into His words what He did not command? What was it that "belief" pointed to?
Matthew 16:16-19
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The omission has a purpose that He does not reveal until He does so through Paul.
So, it's interesting that you did not answer my question about those miracles that Jesus said would be done by THOSE (not just the disciples) who believed upon Him, as was confessed by Peter as quoted above. If the Kingdom Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Grace, then why aren't we ALL doing what Jesus promised would be done by all who believe upon Him?
What I'm saying is that if it was all the same Gospel, that would make even Jesus Himself a liar, and He cannot tell a lie.
MM
I too can ask the same type of questions:
Are you saying that you don't believe what Jesus said?
Are you saying that Jesus was remiss by not mentioning His death and resurrection in the Kingdom Gospel He commanded of His disciples?
Why didn't He mention the preaching of His death and resurrection to His disciples in the Gospel He commanded them to preach?
So, we see that even Jesus left out the preaching of His death and resurrection in His own Gospel message. He obviously had a reason for leaving that out at that time. He did not command the preaching of those elements until He commanded it of Paul. Why is that? Without doing what so many others do by shoving that into Christ's Gospel He commanded, as some are in the habit of doing, why the omission? Why do so many have to assume that into His words what He did not command? What was it that "belief" pointed to?
Matthew 16:16-19
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The omission has a purpose that He does not reveal until He does so through Paul.
So, it's interesting that you did not answer my question about those miracles that Jesus said would be done by THOSE (not just the disciples) who believed upon Him, as was confessed by Peter as quoted above. If the Kingdom Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Grace, then why aren't we ALL doing what Jesus promised would be done by all who believe upon Him?
What I'm saying is that if it was all the same Gospel, that would make even Jesus Himself a liar, and He cannot tell a lie.
MM
Hi MM,
The last paragraph in your post above really concerns me.
"" What I'm saying is that if it was all the same Gospel, that would make even Jesus Himself a liar, and He cannot tell a lie. (MM post #383) ""
I don't think I would like to base such an accusation on a theory that is just over 150 years old (hyper/ultra dispensationalism).
The last paragraph in your post above really concerns me.
"" What I'm saying is that if it was all the same Gospel, that would make even Jesus Himself a liar, and He cannot tell a lie. (MM post #383) ""
I don't think I would like to base such an accusation on a theory that is just over 150 years old (hyper/ultra dispensationalism).
While I do agree with your premise as to the technical translation of the term Grace, I think the concept abounds throughout Scripture. Grace also encompasses mercy and I think this verse showcases both.
Psalm 103:8-12
8 The Lord is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Psalm 103:8-12
8 The Lord is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Greetings,
It sounds like you're making an appeal to antiquity, which I would hope that you also know is a fallacy. We don't have to dabble in "theory" to see the differences between what Jesus and the eleven, contrasted with what Paul preached. The common elements do exist, such as Christ being the Center of it all and faith. Apart from those, the differences are glaring.
So, if you would, please elaborate on your point.
MM
It sounds like you're making an appeal to antiquity, which I would hope that you also know is a fallacy. We don't have to dabble in "theory" to see the differences between what Jesus and the eleven, contrasted with what Paul preached. The common elements do exist, such as Christ being the Center of it all and faith. Apart from those, the differences are glaring.
So, if you would, please elaborate on your point.
MM
Yes, we are in agreement to a point. The term "grace" does exist in the Gospels and some in Acts, but the use of that term was not directed at salvation in the Kingdom Gospel portions of scripture and throughout various of the epistles. That difference also adds to the differential nature of the Gospels.
MM
MM
Generally speaking:
Recall also that in Jesus' ministry and preaching, Gentiles were "dogs!"
Matthew 15:26-27
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
It wasn't until Paul's Gospel that Gentiles were made fellow heirs:
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The woman did not say that to Jesus because it was still hidden in God what was to take place through what was revealed to Paul.
So, this distinction between Gospels was NOT a recent creation in the 1800's as is claimed by some who are ignorant of the truth, it's openly revealed right there in the NT we all claim to believe. The eleven did not go out and preach to the Gentile world throughout Asia Minor and down into Africa. They mostly remained right there in Jerusalem, with only Peter and Luke occasionally going on excursions abroad. There may have been other excursions by yet even others not recorded, but they obviously were not of note to be included in scripture.
MM
Recall also that in Jesus' ministry and preaching, Gentiles were "dogs!"
Matthew 15:26-27
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
It wasn't until Paul's Gospel that Gentiles were made fellow heirs:
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The woman did not say that to Jesus because it was still hidden in God what was to take place through what was revealed to Paul.
So, this distinction between Gospels was NOT a recent creation in the 1800's as is claimed by some who are ignorant of the truth, it's openly revealed right there in the NT we all claim to believe. The eleven did not go out and preach to the Gentile world throughout Asia Minor and down into Africa. They mostly remained right there in Jerusalem, with only Peter and Luke occasionally going on excursions abroad. There may have been other excursions by yet even others not recorded, but they obviously were not of note to be included in scripture.
MM
Hi MM,
Its an appeal to what christians have always believed about what Scriptures says. Hyper/uktra dispensationalism is a theory thought of around 150 years ago.
The fact is, we don't know what Paul preached about Jesus when he went on his missionary journeys. We do know how Paul responded to various issues arising in the various churches Paul started. And we thank God. For Paul being well versed in scripture (OT), was able to teach the outworking of all that Christ had fulfilled and accomplished for all the world.
What did Paul preach to the Philippians at Philippi, on his visits there?
Or to make it easier,
Teach and urge these things. 3If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness (1 Tim 6:3)
What are the words of Christ and why does Paul say to teach them?
Bare in mind a few of Pauls letters were written before the gospels.
Its an appeal to what christians have always believed about what Scriptures says. Hyper/uktra dispensationalism is a theory thought of around 150 years ago.
The fact is, we don't know what Paul preached about Jesus when he went on his missionary journeys. We do know how Paul responded to various issues arising in the various churches Paul started. And we thank God. For Paul being well versed in scripture (OT), was able to teach the outworking of all that Christ had fulfilled and accomplished for all the world.
What did Paul preach to the Philippians at Philippi, on his visits there?
Or to make it easier,
Teach and urge these things. 3If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness (1 Tim 6:3)
What are the words of Christ and why does Paul say to teach them?
Bare in mind a few of Pauls letters were written before the gospels.
Yes, I'm aware of that myth about that label you chose to use, calling it hyper/ultra dispensationalism. I'm not going to apply some juvenile label to your Westernized, traditional beliefs because they are simply what they are. Slapping a label upon the beliefs of others is an old, worn out habit perpetrated on the basis of feelings of superiority. I did, however, misunderstand your appeal to antiquity.
It seems as though you made an appeal to an alleged infancy behind that label you selected. Relegating the beliefs others have derived from scripture on the merits of their own studies, because they happen to align with some pathetic label that serves no other purpose than to compartmentalize others under some contrived heading, that too is a tragic, discussion-killing practice that I'm hoping we can avoid from here on out.
Also, we DO know what Paul preached because he restated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 precisely what he preached to them. There are labels I could slap onto your forehead that identify that system of thought that also had beginnings sometime in the recent past that are intermixed with post-modern Christianity here in the West, but I will not.
So, if we can get past the juvenility of label-making by sticking to the topics at hand, then that would be most helpful in progressing.
Now, when you asked about what Paul preached at Philippi, do you have reason to believe that it would be any different from what he revealed was preached to the Corinthians? If so, then why?
Just so you know, I also do not subscribe to the Nicene nor the Ante Nicene fathers because of the heavy influences they are known to have been under from Aristotle, Plato and numbers of other secular philosophers.
MM
It seems as though you made an appeal to an alleged infancy behind that label you selected. Relegating the beliefs others have derived from scripture on the merits of their own studies, because they happen to align with some pathetic label that serves no other purpose than to compartmentalize others under some contrived heading, that too is a tragic, discussion-killing practice that I'm hoping we can avoid from here on out.
Also, we DO know what Paul preached because he restated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 precisely what he preached to them. There are labels I could slap onto your forehead that identify that system of thought that also had beginnings sometime in the recent past that are intermixed with post-modern Christianity here in the West, but I will not.
So, if we can get past the juvenility of label-making by sticking to the topics at hand, then that would be most helpful in progressing.
Now, when you asked about what Paul preached at Philippi, do you have reason to believe that it would be any different from what he revealed was preached to the Corinthians? If so, then why?
Just so you know, I also do not subscribe to the Nicene nor the Ante Nicene fathers because of the heavy influences they are known to have been under from Aristotle, Plato and numbers of other secular philosophers.
MM
The disciples went around preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Is this the same message as Paul? Why didn't the Lord want them preaching this message to Samaritans or Gentiles? Was it not for them as well? When you give the gospel, do you literally say, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand"? Are miracles included in your preaching?
Matthew 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Yes its Gods Kingdom, Christ is king..
Paul, a a servant Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle,
set apart for the gospel of God, 2which d he promised beforehand e through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4and was declared to be the Son of God i in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and k apostleship l to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name m among all the nations, 6including you who are n called to belong to Jesus Christ,
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Hi John146,
As for above, the gospel is for the whole world, christ himself being the good news itself, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, the prophet, the high priest and the King.. He is King of the kingdom if God, reigning now.
We, like Paul and his co workers... Hold on, let Paul speak:
my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, (Col 4:11b)
I am sure as a christian you would want to be like Paul and work for the kingdom of God, would you not?
As for above, the gospel is for the whole world, christ himself being the good news itself, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, the prophet, the high priest and the King.. He is King of the kingdom if God, reigning now.
We, like Paul and his co workers... Hold on, let Paul speak:
my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, (Col 4:11b)
I am sure as a christian you would want to be like Paul and work for the kingdom of God, would you not?
You avoided my question. Why were the disciples told to only preach, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", only to Jews and not the Samaritans or Gentiles? Why were there exclusions if it was for the whole world? Btw, no mention was ever given in this message of the death, burial, and resurrection for sin. This is what Paul's gospel was all about.
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Does this answer your question?
[Act 13:39, 45-49 KJV]
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ...
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
[Act 13:39, 45-49 KJV]
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ...
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
It's interesting that the singular gospel crowd lays claim to there being only one Gospel throughout, they always avoid the miracles that followed those who were under that kingdom Gospel:
Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I can see why they want it ALL to be one singular Gospel. The works portion of it appeals to their hearts, and yet they are ALL failing to obey Christ at His word by DOING the works He commanded of those under the Kingdom Gospel. They get dunked, like that which was commanded under the Kingdom Gospel, and is easy to perform, but they FAIL MISERABLY at healing the sick in the name of Jesus!
Why is that?
It is because they intellectually, in WORD ONLY, demand that it's all one Gospel, but in practice, they fail miserably!
Why?
Either this is a miserable state of faith on their part, and on ALL our parts, or they love playing the part of the hypocrite, saying one thing, and NOT doing the other.
Ahh, let me guess...there's this also, right?
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So, they may point to this, but the problem is that healing is not mentioned as one of the items that will fail with the coming of perfection, also the drinking of deadly things, and the casting out of devils is also absent from this list above. One thing is for sure is that knowledge has indeed vanished away for some...
So, dare they try to tackle this directly rather than trying to confuse it all with other verses ripped from their contexts, and/or spiritualizing everything so that it so easily lay bare upon the field of their subjectivity in making it say what they want it to say, we're left with their weak and feeble defenses for Westernized sets of selectively engineered doctrines that absolutely cannot, or will not, answer the questions posed here.
My wife is 100% disabled, and not one of those people who lay claim to belief that they are under the promises made to the Kingdom Gospel people, will be able to come here and heal her. The singular Gospel doctrine is pathetic and weak, utterly unable to save anyone, much less do what Jesus Himself promised will occur within the Kingdom Gospel dispensation. Come on, you Kingdom Gospel people...come here and pray for my wife that she may be healed, and we will see what an utter failure your theology really is. Heck, try it on someone there locally, but I know you don't have the courage to stand behind what you claim to believe!
This places the last nail in the coffin of that false doctrine, and some will continue to yammer in defense of what they absolutely cannot and will not effectively defend in word AND deed!
We are under the Gospel of Grace, within which was made NO promises for miraculous signs as was made under the Kingdom Gospel, and actually performed under that dispensation...all to the glory of Christ Jesus and the TRUTH He spoke at all times!
The weaknesses and feebleness of the singular Gospel claim bring that system of defenses into the dusts of complete ineffectiveness! However, I know that the disease of falsehoods will continue unabated...
Blessings to one and all who hold to what scripture actually teaches and proves to us all by way of the reality of what we do under the Gospel of Grace.
MM
Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I can see why they want it ALL to be one singular Gospel. The works portion of it appeals to their hearts, and yet they are ALL failing to obey Christ at His word by DOING the works He commanded of those under the Kingdom Gospel. They get dunked, like that which was commanded under the Kingdom Gospel, and is easy to perform, but they FAIL MISERABLY at healing the sick in the name of Jesus!
Why is that?
It is because they intellectually, in WORD ONLY, demand that it's all one Gospel, but in practice, they fail miserably!
Why?
Either this is a miserable state of faith on their part, and on ALL our parts, or they love playing the part of the hypocrite, saying one thing, and NOT doing the other.
Ahh, let me guess...there's this also, right?
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
So, they may point to this, but the problem is that healing is not mentioned as one of the items that will fail with the coming of perfection, also the drinking of deadly things, and the casting out of devils is also absent from this list above. One thing is for sure is that knowledge has indeed vanished away for some...
So, dare they try to tackle this directly rather than trying to confuse it all with other verses ripped from their contexts, and/or spiritualizing everything so that it so easily lay bare upon the field of their subjectivity in making it say what they want it to say, we're left with their weak and feeble defenses for Westernized sets of selectively engineered doctrines that absolutely cannot, or will not, answer the questions posed here.
My wife is 100% disabled, and not one of those people who lay claim to belief that they are under the promises made to the Kingdom Gospel people, will be able to come here and heal her. The singular Gospel doctrine is pathetic and weak, utterly unable to save anyone, much less do what Jesus Himself promised will occur within the Kingdom Gospel dispensation. Come on, you Kingdom Gospel people...come here and pray for my wife that she may be healed, and we will see what an utter failure your theology really is. Heck, try it on someone there locally, but I know you don't have the courage to stand behind what you claim to believe!
This places the last nail in the coffin of that false doctrine, and some will continue to yammer in defense of what they absolutely cannot and will not effectively defend in word AND deed!
We are under the Gospel of Grace, within which was made NO promises for miraculous signs as was made under the Kingdom Gospel, and actually performed under that dispensation...all to the glory of Christ Jesus and the TRUTH He spoke at all times!
The weaknesses and feebleness of the singular Gospel claim bring that system of defenses into the dusts of complete ineffectiveness! However, I know that the disease of falsehoods will continue unabated...
Blessings to one and all who hold to what scripture actually teaches and proves to us all by way of the reality of what we do under the Gospel of Grace.
MM
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