THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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kennethcadwell

Guest
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.


Folks who tells others not to sin and then teach the law are ignorant of the truths of the bible.

Sorry, but it is those who teach that when you are a believer you can sin all you want as sin can no longer be imputed on you any more. Sorry but the bible says different, as you can read both books of Timothy will Paul warns him how sin can still be imputed on him making him impure again.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Sorry, but it is those who teach that when you are a believer you can sin all you want as sin can no longer be imputed on you any more. Sorry but the bible says different, as you can read both books of Timothy will Paul warns him how sin can still be imputed on him making him impure again.
read it again...and become a fool and God will make you wise! :)

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Consider Paul in Phil 3, blameless. He counted his righteousness under the law "dung" so that he might gain Christ.

If Paul believed as you believe that sin can no longer be imputed on you again, he would not have spent both books of 1st and 2nd Timothy warning Timothy how he can become impure to sin again.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
read it again...and become a fool and God will make you wise! :)

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

You can keep posting that all you want but you can not get around how Paul warns Timothy that he can become impure by sins again. He tells Timothy in both books the many ways he can become impure.
 
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haz

Guest
If you are still walking in sin though thinking that they can not be imputed on you any more, then you are still living a life in iniquity for those sins that have not been confessed for forgiveness. The bible says both you have to produce works, and produce fruit worthy of repentance. If you are still continuing to walk in sins that have not been confessed for forgiveness, and have not turned from stopping those sins letting the Holy Spirit help you do it. Then the bible says your repentance was not a true repentance.

Read 1st and 2nd Timothy as he is a believer yet Paul still warns him over and over again about sin can still be imputed on him and make him impure again. By what you and Mitspa say that is impossible, Paul disagrees with the two of you.
You misunderstand the scriptures you quote.
Christians are not perfect in behavior, but our life is hid with Christ in God, and therein lies our sinlessness.
As for our imperfect physical body that you so are so determined to judge your righteousness by under the law, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As that outward flawed physical body is already dead because of its sin, why are you still judging your righteousness by its failings?
 
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Kerry

Guest
That's right Mitspa the power if sin is in the law. Freedom from this sin nature is in the cross. He who has eye's to see let him see and ears to hear let him hear. I would rep you but it won't let me, I have to rep someone that i don't want too in order to rep you again. Doggone policy's.
 
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haz

Guest
If Paul believed as you believe that sin can no longer be imputed on you again, he would not have spent both books of 1st and 2nd Timothy warning Timothy how he can become impure to sin again.
Read 1John 3:3 to see how Christians purified themselves.

Believe on Jesus.
 
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Kerry

Guest
You misunderstand the scriptures you quote.
Christians are not perfect in behavior, but our life is hid with Christ in God, and therein lies our sinlessness.
As for our imperfect physical body that you so are so determined to judge your righteousness by under the law, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As that outward flawed physical body is already dead because of its sin, why are you still judging your righteousness by its failings?
Dude you sin every day, the closer you get to God the more you find just how sinful you are and how much we need the cross, which is why these law keepers have no clue. His holiness puts us to shame. I don't care who you think you are. Trust me I know.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
 
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Kerry

Guest
If you keep law then you must keep the whole law and where will sacrifice your lamb, there is no temple and no altar. so then how can you keep it?
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Maybe if it is said in big bold letters;

Repentance is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Baptism is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Confession is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Forgiveness is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!


They are all spiritual works that were commanded by the Lord.
They are not part of the mosaic laws that have been blotted out, canceled, or done away with.
Repentance is not something done lightly as if your actions do not follow, then it was not a true repentance. You have to turn from your sins and not commit them, letting the Holy Spirit help you to strengthen you in areas you are weak. If you do not turn from your sins, it was not a true repentance.
Baptism in Him by being immersed in water into is death and being raised into a new life is a symbol of a clear conscious and obedience to Him by being born again.
Confession is made onto Him as a form of showing love and respect to Him for what He has done, and a showing of your Godly sorrow brought on by Holy Spirit bringing you to ask forgiveness and turn from it.
Forgiveness is a showing of love that He commanded, that we are to show to others out of that love for Him.


None of that was done away with at the cross, nor did Paul do away with any of it that some erroneously believe.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Maybe if it is said in big bold letters;

Repentance is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Baptism is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Confession is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!

Forgiveness is not a dead self righteous work of the law !!!


They are all spiritual works that were commanded by the Lord.
They are not part of the mosaic laws that have been blotted out, canceled, or done away with.
Repentance is not something done lightly as if your actions do not follow, then it was not a true repentance. You have to turn from your sins and not commit them, letting the Holy Spirit help you to strengthen you in areas you are weak. If you do not turn from your sins, it was not a true repentance.
Baptism in Him by being immersed in water into is death and being raised into a new life is a symbol of a clear conscious and obedience to Him by being born again.
Confession is made onto Him as a form of showing love and respect to Him for what He has done, and a showing of your Godly sorrow brought on by Holy Spirit bringing you to ask forgiveness and turn from it.
Forgiveness is a showing of love that He commanded, that we are to show to others out of that love for Him.


None of that was done away with at the cross, nor did Paul do away with any of it that some erroneously believe.
Dead, we speaking life, God is not he God of the dead but of the living.

Mitspa, I leave it to you, I have to go to bed, but I'll be back. Thank God for Mitspa amen
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I noticed how you left a word out of this verse in Hebrews 10, for it actually says this;

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.



 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Dead, we speaking life, God is not he God of the dead but of the living.

Mitspa, I leave it to you, I have to go to bed, but I'll be back. Thank God for Mitspa amen

Hey Mitspa and Haz is the two that keep telling me these are dead works, and/or do not apply, or done away with at the cross. That is not true that they have.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
I noticed how you left a word out of this verse in Hebrews 10, for it actually says this;

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.



No the KJV and the Greek say them that are sanctified...past tense in the Greek... One sacrifice for sins forever...its all past tense in the Greek!
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
If you keep law then you must keep the whole law and where will sacrifice your lamb, there is no temple and no altar. so then how can you keep it?

I will tell you this as I have told the other two Mitspa and Haz.
There is a big difference between the mosaic laws and God's moral laws, as a believer who is studied in the word you would know the difference. I know many of biblical scholars that have 1,000's of hours and over 20 years in biblical study, and every single one of them would look at them strangely who do not know this simple fact.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
I will tell you this as I have told the other two Mitspa and Haz.
There is a big difference between the mosaic laws and God's moral laws, as a believer who is studied in the word you would know the difference. I know many of biblical scholars that have 1,000's of hours and over 20 years in biblical study, and every single one of them would look at them strangely who do not know this simple fact.
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

This is the law... written and engraved in stones....
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
No the KJV and the Greek say them that are sanctified...past tense in the Greek... One sacrifice for sins forever...its all past tense in the Greek!

hagiazó

I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

Once again I will tell you as I have told others please use the whole definition of a word, and not a partial definition. Then once you have the full definition take all scriptures that deal with the topic you are studying on. Then you can get how the word was applied. In this case the word is used as a continuous to make holy.
We know this because not all people can turn from their sins on day one of repentance, some sins are hard to stop right away. And the bible says you must provide works/fruit worthy of repentance, meaning your actions have to show that you are turning from walking in those sins with the Holy Spirit to help you in this endeavor.
Sanctification process is never a past tense, nor is it said that way in Greek, as it is just that a process in our life. Cleansing us from all sins as we confess them when they are committed.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

This is the law... written and engraved in stones....

Because even those 10 commandments as part of the mosaic law had written ordinances that went along with them, breaking any one of them was a death sentence / corporal punishment.

Once again there is a big difference in the mosaic laws and that of God's moral laws that are written in our hearts to live in as an everyday way of life. And if you look into those laws that He writes in our hearts, you would find they mirror the commandments without the ordinances. For you no longer have to worry about what man will do to you for breaking them, but you do have to fear an expectation of judgment and a fiery indignation that will devour you for not keeping them.

That is why it is called laws written in our hearts, law of faith, and law of Spirit, because your punishment for not keeping those commandments are not physical death or punishment, but spiritual death for not keeping them.
 
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haz

Guest
Dude you sin every day, the closer you get to God the more you find just how sinful you are and how much we need the cross, which is why these law keepers have no clue. His holiness puts us to shame. I don't care who you think you are. Trust me I know.
True, our physical body is sinful. But praise God that those sins are outside the body of Christ that we Christians abide in (1Cor 6:18.
Our old physical man was crucified on the cross with Christ (Rom 6:6) thus it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

Christians are now a new creation. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
To say the new creation sins is to say that there is sin in Christ.

sadly the legalists here do not understand this. They still determine their righteousness by whether their old physical man can obey the law perfectly (or else keeping their sin ledger perfectly balanced with continual repentance). For the legalists, they keep their old man alive seeking to be perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3). Legalists refuse to crucify their old man with Christ.