THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

kennethcadwell · Dec 25, 2014

You still miss the meaning as the written ordinances of the law is what was blotted out, and the reason is because we do not follow a written set of laws or standards. We follow God's moral laws that are now written in our hearts, and knowing right form wrong is part of those moral laws. The Holy Spirit was sent here to help us to walk in a righteous way in the Lord, and not to let sin take back control of our lives.
From here though is where the issue changes to a debate between believers, as some say when you are a believer sin can never control your life again, but some of us will say that sin can become an issue for a believer again and overtake them and they end up falling from grace as the bible gives clear examples of this.

New International Version
and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

New Living Translation
and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

English Standard Version
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

King James Bible
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Right here in different versions of this scripture we see it saying renew, restore, or bring back to repentance. That means they had to have salvation in their hands, then lost it. You can not restore something to somebody who never had it to begin with, it would be the first time receiving it. However this scripture says that it is needed to be restored on them again, yet by the next verse it shows they then refuse because by having to repent again they feel as though they are mocking or as it says crucifying Him again. This comes from that false teaching that sin can not be imputed on a believer again. Yet if that believer turns and puts their trust/faith in something else ( which is sin ) then keeping it on Christ they will fall from grace, just as the Galatians did who turned away from the Lord to their sin of trying to be justified by the law.

Kerry · Dec 25, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

You still miss the meaning as the written ordinances of the law is what was blotted out, and the reason is because we do not follow a written set of laws or standards. We follow God's moral laws that are now written in our hearts, and knowing right form wrong is part of those moral laws. The Holy Spirit was sent here to help us to walk in a righteous way in the Lord, and not to let sin take back control of our lives.
From here though is where the issue changes to a debate between believers, as some say when you are a believer sin can never control your life again, but some of us will say that sin can become an issue for a believer again and overtake them and they end up falling from grace as the bible gives clear examples of this.

New International Version
and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

New Living Translation
and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

English Standard Version
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

King James Bible
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Right here in different versions of this scripture we see it saying renew, restore, or bring back to repentance. That means they had to have salvation in their hands, then lost it. You can not restore something to somebody who never had it to begin with, it would be the first time receiving it. However this scripture says that it is needed to be restored on them again, yet by the next verse it shows they then refuse because by having to repent again they feel as though they are mocking or as it says crucifying Him again. This comes from that false teaching that sin can not be imputed on a believer again. Yet if that believer turns and puts their trust/faith in something else ( which is sin ) then keeping it on Christ they will fall from grace, just as the Galatians did who turned away from the Lord to their sin of trying to be justified by the law.

Wow Kenny where did this come from. It is right on the mark and Praise God. Good job brother.

Mitspa · Dec 25, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

You still miss the meaning as the written ordinances of the law is what was blotted out, and the reason is because we do not follow a written set of laws or standards. We follow God's moral laws that are now written in our hearts, and knowing right form wrong is part of those moral laws. The Holy Spirit was sent here to help us to walk in a righteous way in the Lord, and not to let sin take back control of our lives.
From here though is where the issue changes to a debate between believers, as some say when you are a believer sin can never control your life again, but some of us will say that sin can become an issue for a believer again and overtake them and they end up falling from grace as the bible gives clear examples of this.

New International Version
and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

New Living Translation
and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

English Standard Version
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

New American Standard Bible
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

King James Bible
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Right here in different versions of this scripture we see it saying renew, restore, or bring back to repentance. That means they had to have salvation in their hands, then lost it. You can not restore something to somebody who never had it to begin with, it would be the first time receiving it. However this scripture says that it is needed to be restored on them again, yet by the next verse it shows they then refuse because by having to repent again they feel as though they are mocking or as it says crucifying Him again. This comes from that false teaching that sin can not be imputed on a believer again. Yet if that believer turns and puts their trust/faith in something else ( which is sin ) then keeping it on Christ they will fall from grace, just as the Galatians did who turned away from the Lord to their sin of trying to be justified by the law.

James is not talking about morality of the law...that's why he used Rahab as the example. He is talking about acting according to what we profess to believe...which is a moral act in the eyes of God...Clearly God did not justify Rahab because she was a "moral" person ...but because He seen her actions in faith as the standard that justified her...not her personal morality...not because she had any righteousness of herself, but that she had a living faith and acted in faith. Now the morality of the law, is not the issue that James is addressing with Abraham and Rahab...to twist it around to make it appear that way is just error.

Kerry · Dec 25, 2014

Mitspa said:

Yeah Rahab shows the mercy of God against the law. Lets see if I can remember, the law states that a foreigner cannot enter the Congregation of the Lord until the their third generation and if that foreigner is a harlot they cannot enter until the tenth generation. But Rahab was accepted immediately and in the lineage of Christ.

 could be off on those time frames but the do exist in the law.

Atwood · Dec 25, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Kenneth, how many times now have you had those verses explained to you?
The situation in Romans 7 can happen to any Christian in any day.

Now if & when you actually become a believer, we could have a debate between believers. But it is obvious that you do not believe in the Son of God as your Savior. You cannot say you are saved. You cannot say that you will go to Heaven some day. You think you have a shot at it, not that

I shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save Me from my sins.

When will you actually trust Him with your destiny?

Mitspa · Dec 25, 2014

Kerry said:

The point was that she is the example of faith with works... "works of faith" not works of law... and she was justified by her faith. Not by her morality.

Atwood · Dec 25, 2014

Kerry said:

Kerry I thought that by this time you would know that the Hebrews 6 passage goes on to verse 9 and says that the preceding described apostate was not a saved person at all. Better thing that accompany salvation, which things were not in the apostate at all. Heb 6 speaks of the professed Christian who apostatizes and was never saved. I note how those who don't want to trust the Savior persist in quoting from the start of Heb 6, but stopping short of 6:9 where the verse is explained.

So here we go again:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

h.

kennethcadwell · Dec 25, 2014

Kerry said:

This comes from where it always comes from, through the Holy Spirit that is working through us to spread His word and keep the aspect of walking in the light and not the darkness of sins. We let God's grace guide us from the Holy Spirit working in us.

Mitspa said:

God works through everybody no matter how bad they are, this does not mean that person can not commit a moral act with God working in them. Which is what Rahab was doing, she may not have been a moral person but God working through her had her commit a moral act.
This again though does not mean that a person can continue as a believer to commit immoral acts on a regular basis, they have to do just like Paul said and that is to learn self control in their life. We get that help from the Holy Spirit to guide us in the areas that we are weak to make us stronger in and through Him.

This once again leads to the fact that there is a difference in a backsliding believer, which is one who sins from time to time but when they do they repent and confess that sin for forgiveness of it.

And a willful sinner who continues to walk in their sins everyday without repenting of them, and confession for forgiveness of them.
Then the second part to this as well is that even if you say you repented of that sin or sins, but then continue to do it on a regular basis then the bible says that is not a true repentance. Your actions have to reflect your repentance, which means you have to turn away from committing that sin.

Atwood · Dec 26, 2014

Hizikyah said:

You post a number of Version introductions where they explain how they render YHWH with LORD. It is interesting to read their rationale; but I am not sure what your real point is? In my own version I am rendering it YHWH in the OT & LORD in the NT (since the actual Tetragrammaton is not written out as such in the NT) to indicate a reference to YHWH in the OT (by reference or allusions).

The rationale for using LORD instead of YHWH, is probably based not on a Jewish superstition, but on the fact that the NT uses kyrios for YHWH, kyrios being the common word for Lord. So they probably figure if the Holy Spirit in the NT choses to render the YHWH of the OT as LORD, why should they do differently?

It is not a sin to follow tradition. It is a sin to raise tradition to the status of God's word or to put tradition above God's word. For example, most of us follow the tradition of co-operating at least some with the US government's traditional time change to Daylight Standard Time, pretending that the time is really an hour later than it really is. We could insist on reporting & trying to live by real time, but it would not necessarily be loving neighbor as self.

Mitspa · Dec 26, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

This comes from where it always comes from, through the Holy Spirit that is working through us to spread His word and keep the aspect of walking in the light and not the darkness of sins. We let God's grace guide us from the Holy Spirit working in us.

God works through everybody no matter how bad they are, this does not mean that person can not commit a moral act with God working in them. Which is what Rahab was doing, she may not have been a moral person but God working through her had her commit a moral act.
This again though does not mean that a person can continue as a believer to commit immoral acts on a regular basis, they have to do just like Paul said and that is to learn self control in their life. We get that help from the Holy Spirit to guide us in the areas that we are weak to make us stronger in and through Him.

This once again leads to the fact that there is a difference in a backsliding believer, which is one who sins from time to time but when they do they repent and confess that sin for forgiveness of it.

And a willful sinner who continues to walk in their sins everyday without repenting of them, and confession for forgiveness of them.
Then the second part to this as well is that even if you say you repented of that sin or sins, but then continue to do it on a regular basis then the bible says that is not a true repentance. Your actions have to reflect your repentance, which means you have to turn away from committing that sin.

Well the whole point was and is that we all are justified by faith and real faith has "works" of faith...not works of law.

As far as how you think God deals with believers that "sin" that is something you seem to have all mixed up and I don't think you will let others help you understand because you seem to want to be a teacher when maybe you should listen more?

kennethcadwell · Dec 26, 2014

Verse 9 does not say they were not saved to begin with, it is talking about things that accompany salvation.
You can not renew or restore something to somebody that never had it to begin with, which is exactly what that verse says. Depending what version you have, it says restore, renew, bring back to. These all are terms that mean they had it before then lost it.

Atwood said:

Kerry I thought that by this time you would know that the Hebrews 6 passage goes on to verse 9 and says that the preceding described apostate was not a saved person at all. Better thing that accompany salvation, which things were not in the apostate at all. Heb 6 speaks of the professed Christian who apostatizes and was never saved. I note how those who don't want to trust the Savior persist in quoting from the start of Heb 6, but stopping short of 6:9 where the verse is explained.

So here we go again:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

h.

Kerry · Dec 26, 2014

This comes from where it always comes from, through the Holy Spirit that is working through us to spread His word and keep the aspect of walking in the light and not the darkness of sins. We let God's grace guide us from the Holy Spirit working in us.

No, I have talked with you before and you were all about law and not grace, Not saying that grace gives us a license to sin as many take it for that. But in your post you showed that is by faith in the cross and I have never seen that from you before. I took you as a legalist.

Atwood · Dec 26, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Kenneth, God doesn't work through men to do immoral acts. I see no immoral act whatsoever in what Rahab did to hide the spies in the book of Joshua. Beware of the sin of judging. I don't think you or anyone else can convict her of sin in that story. It seems obvious that she had sinned in the past as a harlot before she encountered the spies. But the story doesn't say she had sex with the spies, for crying out loud.

And also I see no proof that she lied.

We have no way to know that in fact the spies did leave as she said before they came back (information withheld, not a lie), and she hid them.

kennethcadwell · Dec 26, 2014

Mitspa said:

I do listen, but I listen to the Holy Spirit that is in me that is leading me away from being controlled by sins.
If a sinful thought starts to arise in me the Holy Spirit guides me by speaking to me and guiding me to not let get full grown, by turning from it before it becomes action. Strengthening me in my weak areas, and keeping me strong in other areas. If you think that a believer can still sin whenever and however they want without repenting and confessing them then I am sorry brother that you are not heeding the warnings, and I shall continue to pray for you.

kennethcadwell · Dec 26, 2014

Atwood said:

I did not say God works through people to commit immoral acts.
What I said is that He works through immoral people to do moral acts, big difference.

Mitspa · Dec 26, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Yes I understand your desire and I hope we all desire to live pure lives...but the bible teaches us that its Gods Grace that gives us victory over sin...not the law...in fact putting oneself under the law only increases sins power.

kennethcadwell · Dec 26, 2014

Kerry said:

Then you got the wrong aspect, because I have always said that a believer follows the commandments of the Lord through love for Him. I have never been an advocate for the mosaic laws, and have always said those written ordinances have been blotted out. The laws we follow is God's moral laws that He has written in our hearts.
Where the whole putting me as a mosaic law follower and pusher is from those who have either misunderstood what I wrote, or have tried to twist what I wrote to say something different.

I have never taken anything away from what the Lord has done for us on the cross.
All I have ever done is defend and stand up for how a believer should walk and act as there are many scriptures throughout the whole NT that speak of how we should walk, and then others that say if you do not walk in this manner you are not saved and still a slave to the sinful world.
For instance Lord Jesus says that you have to forgive others of their sins, or you will not be forgiven of yours. Some of actually came out and said this has nothing to do with salvation, yet your sins do have to be forgiven to have salvation. If your sins are not forgiven you are still enmity to God.

My stance has always been if you truly believe in the Lord and love Him you would not deny His teachings and/or cancel them out or throw them away as if they don't apply or not important. Yet some do, and that upsets me !!!

kennethcadwell · Dec 26, 2014

Mitspa said:

Yes it comes from God, as I have said that God's moral laws are written in our hearts to walk in as an everyday way of life and not a written set of ordinances. The mosaic law does not apply to us, nor do we have to keep any of those ordinances of that set of laws.

Mitspa · Dec 26, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

I can agree with that statement.. lol... Yes and that law is love and its His Love that's causes us to obey and love Him... We love HIM (1st Commandment) because He first loved us...we cannot do anything unless we first learn to receive from Him the strength and grace to do it.

Brainfreeze · Dec 26, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Without the Jews and Romans killing Yahshua... " immoral " we don't get salvation... without Joseph being sold by his brothers into slavery, he doesn't save his family and all the people in the end " the drought " ... Your spot on, Kenneth

THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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