The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[UnderGrace]

Okay, here is the passage more in context

[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. [SUP]33 [/SUP]I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ [SUP]34 [/SUP]And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”[SUP][i]

Where does it say of those who believe in Him only?
[/SUP]

Jesus did take on the sins of the whole world, of those who believe in Him.

Otherwise they are condemned for their sins.

 

[Grandpa]

Okay, here is the passage more in context

[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. [SUP]33 [/SUP]I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ [SUP]34 [/SUP]And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”[SUP][i]

Where does it say of those who believe in Him only?
[/SUP]

Right here;

John 3:18-19
[FONT=&quot]18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/FONT]

 

[UnderGrace]

This is in a separate place, if what you are saying is true, it should say it all in one place very clearly, God is not the author of confusion.

John would have said
“Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin for those who believe"

I have no idea why it is so hard to accept that Jesus died for everyone and for all sin, like I said I can pay your debt, but it is believing and accepting that the debt is paid that makes the transaction effectual.

Right here;

John 3:18-19
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Grandpa]

This is in a separate place, if what you are saying is true, it should say it all in one place very clearly, God is not the author of confusion.

John would have said
“Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin for those who believe"

I have no idea why it is so hard to accept that Jesus died for everyone and for all sin, like I said I can pay your debt, but it is believing and accepting that the debt is paid that makes the transaction effectual.

IF I have a debt that I will be condemned for but you pay it, Can I later be condemned for it?

No. It is already paid.

If someone is sinless before God they can't be condemned.


There is nothing confusing about this.

All it is is people holding onto a certain theology because of a certain verse that they think means one thing when it really doesn't.

 

[Magenta]

You do not need to explain atonement to me. Maybe I should explain it to you? Jesus is our Passover Lamb. We are covered by His blood, and clothed in His righteousness, that we may escape the penalty of sin (the death of the flesh in the first death, which ALL undergo, and the second death, which is the destruction of the body and soul of the unbeliever) regardless of any of our other sins, for all sin but unbelief has been forgiven.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life.”

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

The sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, but its efficiency is limited to those that believe. I am coming to see that at the heart of this disagreement there are those who believe that God created people just to destroy them for failing to make a choice He never made available to them; they call that justice and mercy.

 

[Grandpa]

You do not need to explain atonement to me. Maybe I should explain it to you? Jesus is our Passover Lamb. We are covered by His blood, and clothed in His righteousness, that we may escape the penalty of sin (which is the death of the flesh in the first death, which ALL undergo, and then second death, which is the destruction of the body and soul of the unbeliever) regardless of any of our other sins, for all sin but unbelief has been forgiven.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life.”

He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

The sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, but its efficiency is limited to those that believe.

Yes, I can definitely agree with that.

I am coming to see that at the heart of this disagreement there are those who believe that God created people just to destroy them for failing to make a choice He never made available to them; they call that justice and mercy.

The fact is that some don't believe, and therefore, they are not saved.

There is a reason they don't believe. We don't know what that reason is. Honestly.

 

[Magenta]

IF I have a debt that I will be condemned for but you pay it, Can I later be condemned for it?

No. It is already paid.

If someone is sinless before God they can't be condemned.

There is nothing confusing about this.

All it is is people holding onto a certain theology because of a certain verse that they think means one thing when it really doesn't.

There is nothing complicated about salvation being contingent upon repentance and belief, that the flesh counts for nothing, that one must be born again of the Spirit of God into the body of Christ to escape the second death, which is accomplished by faith in His sacrifice, which was made for the whole world, though not all will believe to receive the benefit of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf due to His great everlasting love for us. It is foolishness to those who do not believe the gospel, but simple enough for a child to understand, though confusing obviously to some.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Those bones were a typology of how the lost are inwardly. That is why Jesus said many times "let him who has ears hear". Not everyone has those ears. Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice." When Jesus calls His lost sheep, they hear His voice and follow. This calling is via the gospel. As we speak the words of the gospel, God quickens them to life and they exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

And for verese that say they are given faith and repentance?

Acts 13:48 Romans 9:16, Romans 10:17, Romans 12:3, Philippians 2:13, &c.

Also Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18.

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.[Acts 5:31]

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”[Acts 18:11]

Neither of those two verses supports this whatsoever.

And as for Pharaoh? No he could not have repented. God told Moses He would harden his heart. You have man thwarting God's will.

Its obvious we're at an impasse and further discussion would be futile.

Good day my Sister.

I was responding to the verses you listed supporting your view that God "gives" repentance in Post #392 & 393. He offered repentance to Israel which Israel rejected via rejecting the Messiah - so then he offered repentance to the Gentiles. (Acts 5:31

There is an analogy within that section of scripture that sets up the contrast between the character of Moses and the character of Pharaoh . . . .

 

[Magenta]

There is a reason they don't believe. We don't know what that reason is. Honestly.

I thought it was generally understood to be the pride of life. Same sin as Satan, and Adam and Eve. They put themselves on the throne, refuse to acknowledge God as LORD and king, creator of heaven and earth, architect of the universe, and giver of life. Romans one. They know but suppress the truth, exchanging it for a lie. In other words, idolatry.

 

[Mercy4u]

You have made this so clear and I keep waiting for a response on of your points.

The default is always you believe in universalism, I find it interesting that this is a very well known rebuttal that is utilized by those that believe in limited atonement, but the scriptures themselves which clearly state Jesus took on the sins of the whole world are never really dealt with.

It sure looks to me that you have a solid, biblical understanding of this. Even those who Are arguing the things that I basically agree with, are leaving themselves open to plausible and real contradictions.

 

[Magenta]

All it is is people holding onto a certain theology because of a certain verse that they think means one thing when it really doesn't.

At the heart of my theology is the FACT that God is good ALL the time. Some people's theology embraces and promotes a God Who creates people to torture them for eternity for not making a choice that was never given to them.

 

[fredoheaven]

Those the Christ died for, He removed their guilt from them, took the curse upon Himself on their behalf. These are the ones God seeks and saves.[Matthew 1:21]

And who are they? For whom God seeks and saves? The Bible says the lost. This includes the unbelieving ones who in one time was presented with the Gospel truth yet rejected it. The removing of the guilt is the fact of the forgiveness applied to believers, once the sinner repented and believed the Gospel.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

 

[fredoheaven]

We were the children of wrath, even as others.[Eph. 2:3] These sheep you mockingly make fun of, are those chosen from before the foundation of the world.[Eph. 2:1] These sheep you mockingly make fun of are those the Christ said He would give His life for.[John 10:11,15]

The context of Romans 5:1-11 is the ungodly elect receive the gift of eternal life.


Adios senor.

Hmm, I am not going to buy the accusation for ‘mocking’ but this simply you cannot prove your own context. It seems that you don’t only limit Christ Atonement but limit those who have sinned. The penalty of sin which is death is universally passed to all men, since then it is the love of God that Christ died for all men (Romans 5:8). If the effect of sin is to all men, Christ death is also to all men, for every man (Hebrews 2:9).

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Grandpa.

I will try to be clearer.

Evil has not been paid for and is punishable to the lake of fire. Having our sins paid for does not save us.

We still have the issue of our OWN COVERING. If we rely on our own covering to get us to the eternal state, and never believe in His once for ALL sacrifice for our sin. We will be judged according to own covering/self righteousness/human good/evil.

We don't get universalism out of this. We get only a few will find the narrow path(faith alone in Christ alone.) Because the majority reject his sacrifice for them and rely on their own good. Of which they will be judged, because He paid for their sins.

Huh? All sin has been paid for, but evil hasn't? Srsly?

That makes zero sense. That's unbiblical. Sin is evil and evil is sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I will try to be clearer.

You're failing here.

Having our sins paid for does not save us.

Got any verses to back this ridiculous claim up?

We still have the issue of our OWN COVERING. If we rely on our own covering to get us to the eternal state, and never believe in His once for ALL sacrifice for our sin. We will be judged according to own covering/self righteousness/human good/evil.

I will try to be clearer.

You're still failing to do this.

We don't get universalism out of this.

Oh yes you do.

We get only a few will find the narrow path(faith alone in Christ alone.) Because the majority reject his sacrifice for them and rely on their own good. Of which they will be judged, because He paid for their sins.

Why do some find that narrow path? Why do some reject His sacrifice.

If you answer this the way you believe, it is because they did their part, whilst the others did not.

Now, why did those who found the narrow path and accept His sacrifice?

 

[Johnny_B]

This is in a separate place, if what you are saying is true, it should say it all in one place very clearly, God is not the author of confusion.

John would have said
“Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin for those who believe"

I have no idea why it is so hard to accept that Jesus died for everyone and for all sin, like I said I can pay your debt, but it is believing and accepting that the debt is paid that makes the transaction effectual.

Jesus uses the word world here how do you interpret it?

John 18:19-21 “The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.20 Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.21 Why do you ask me? Ask those who have heard me what I said to them; they know what I said.”

Does this mean that Jesus spoke to the world openly?

 

[Johnny_B]

This is an open question, is the Father just or righteous if He placed the judgement of all the sins of the world (all mankind) on Christ, then send a person to hell form sin that Christ paid for.

In other words is it just for the Father to judge sin twice, by placing the punishment of the sins of the world on Jesus, then send someone to hell for the sins that Jesus paid for on the cross, would that not be double jepardy?

Please don't say that Jesus did not pay for the sin of unbelief, if that were true no one would be saved because we all have commited the sin of unbelief. Even the disciples were in unbelief after the resurrection. Mark 16:14

“Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.” Which if you do not believe in the resurrection you are not saved.

Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So lets not side track with the unbelief as unforgivable, lets deal with double jepardy, is the Father just to send people to hell for sins that Jesus paid for on the cross, if He dead for all the sins of the world?

 

[Magenta]

1 Tim 2
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers,
petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,

2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may
lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

4 who desires all men to be saved and
to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
the testimony given at the proper time.

So many Scriptures say all men, funny how those
who believe that are told we do not accept what
the Bible says, as if it means something else.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay, here is the passage more in context

[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [SUP]30 [/SUP]This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. [SUP]33 [/SUP]I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ [SUP]34 [/SUP]And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”[SUP][i]

Where does it say of those who believe in Him only?
[/SUP]

And if He took away everybody in the world's sins away, then none die lost.

 

[SovereignGrace]

i know u are a seasoned veteran in the faith but atleast admit a clear contradiction.

u say God's will is always done. then u say God wishes all to be saved, but not all are because He doesnt grant repentance to all, so His will isnt always done.

be consistent. either say God doesnt want all to be saved like the calvinists do or that all will be saved. cant have both

God does not desire to see any die eternally lost, as He Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’[Ezekiel 33:11] But He also has not willed the salvation of all mankind, either.