The Heresy of Annihilationism

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?
If this is the scripture that you are referring to regarding "being absent" then let's look at the scripture in question:

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.."

So, according to the scripture above, Paul is saying that while we are alive in our bodies, we (our spirits) are absent from the Lord. But, when we die, our spirits depart from our bodies and go to be in the Lord's presence.

Those in Christ who have already died and continue to die, their spirits depart from the body and go to be in His presence in heaven, where they are awaiting the resurrection, i.e. the redemption of their immortal and glorified bodies. For us who are still alive in this body, while in that stated we are absent from the Lord and are waiting for the Lord's appearing in order to be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.

Well lets quote your own words

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up
and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Everyone is in the same place under the earth."

So a saved mother could see there kids tortured right here.
Well, that may well have been the case at that time. I don't know enough about the details of that place prior to Christ's resurrection. That said, after Christ's resurrection when the righteous die, the no longer go down into Hades, but their spirits depart to be in the presence of the Lord. However, when the unsaved die, the still go down into Hades, but we have no scriptures that would infer that people in heaven can see them. So, only the area of torment in flame is still populated with the spirits of all of the unrighteous throughout all of history and continue to pour in daily.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE. To whom was Christ speaking?

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees. OK, how did He speak to them...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his
disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples, but all else in a PARABLE
All of the above are complete conjecture prove-all. Their all guesses, as there is now way to link those scriptures to the rich man and Lazarus. If it was a parable, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and Hades, would all have to be symbolism representing something literal. The problem is that, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and Hades are already the literal.

If you were to take a thousand people who never read anything about the rich man and Lazarus being a parable and asked them to interpret it as a parable, you would most likely come out with a thousand different interpretations.

The rich man and Lazarus does not read like a parable, nor is there anything in the context that would reveal what anything is representing. However, if one reads the event in the plain literal sense, then it means what it says, demonstrating that two men died and were buried, yet there spirits departed from their bodies and were found down in Sheol/Hades, Lazarus in a place of comfort and the rich man in a place of torment. It demonstrates that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body. It also demonstrates that there is eternal punishment and not annihilation. For the rich man said he was in torment in the flame. If annihilation was true, then Abraham wouldn't have had a conversation with the rich man because he would have been burned up as soon as he got there. Regarding the scriptures that you provided from Luke above, I'm sure that you got them from something you read and not derived from anything in the context itself.

Usually there is enough information in parables to figure out what the symbolisms represent. But here in the rich man and Lazarus, there is not even an inkling of what anything would mean when attempting to decode it as a parable.

I don't understand why people are resistant to reading and interpreting it in its plain literal sense.
 
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You guys might think I'm crazy and won't see it at all but I see more of a coming together in unity. Note I said more, not total. :)
Even those we disagree with on some things have helped each of us in some way.
I can definitely see it.
And...we had our blips but I think we did a pretty good job of bearing with one another. :)
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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If this is the scripture that you are referring to regarding "being absent"
then let's look at the scripture in question:
like normal nobody reads my posts, and you did not answer the question.

Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

so why would someone present already with the Lord, wish to be accepted ?

besides the bible says no man has been to heaven and seen God. plain english
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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All of the above are complete conjecture prove-all.


Funny I thought they where plain bible verses.

So now Jesus did not speak to the crowds in parables. Ok
 
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like normal nobody reads my posts, and you did not answer the question.

Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

so why would someone present already with the Lord, wish to be accepted ?

besides the bible says no man has been to heaven and seen God. plain english
Oh! I see what you meant!
 
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If this is the scripture that you are referring to regarding "being absent" then let's look at the scripture in question:

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.."

So, according to the scripture above, Paul is saying that while we are alive in our bodies, we (our spirits) are absent from the Lord. But, when we die, our spirits depart from our bodies and go to be in the Lord's presence.

Those in Christ who have already died and continue to die, their spirits depart from the body and go to be in His presence in heaven, where they are awaiting the resurrection, i.e. the redemption of their immortal and glorified bodies. For us who are still alive in this body, while in that stated we are absent from the Lord and are waiting for the Lord's appearing in order to be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.



Well, that may well have been the case at that time. I don't know enough about the details of that place prior to Christ's resurrection. That said, after Christ's resurrection when the righteous die, the no longer go down into Hades, but their spirits depart to be in the presence of the Lord. However, when the unsaved die, the still go down into Hades, but we have no scriptures that would infer that people in heaven can see them. So, only the area of torment in flame is still populated with the spirits of all of the unrighteous throughout all of history and continue to pour in daily.
Ooh, ooh, Luke 23:46! Great verse to add here! :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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like normal nobody reads my posts, and you did not answer the question.

Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

so why would someone present already with the Lord, wish to be accepted ?

besides the bible says no man has been to heaven and seen God. plain english
Let's try putting the verse in context. Paul is speaking of the judgment seat of Christ. Paul is not speaking of judgment over salvation but over pleasing the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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Let's try putting the verse in context. Paul is speaking of the judgment seat of Christ. Paul is not speaking of judgment over salvation but over pleasing the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

it is mindboggling the idea of annihilationism .

the main concept is unbiblical from it’s origin LOL.


Saint Anselm once said we should give thanks for whatever of the Christian faith we can understand with our minds; but when we come to something we don’t understand, we should “bow our heads in reverent submission.”

The traditional doctrine of hell is currently undergoing significant challenges from both within and without the church. Many question the reality of hell outright, while many others opt toward annihiliationism which is :


the belief that the damned won’t suffer eternally but will instead have their consciousness extinguished at some point.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternal Hell:

(1) God made Hell because of who he is - holy, holy, holy (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8) - and thus is too pure to look upon sin (Hab 1:13).

(2) God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and while he spoke more concerning Heaven than he did Hell, in his holiness and honesty Jesus spoke about Hell (i.e. Gehenna) a considerable amount of times too - since he is the Word, Jesus is actually the author of every usage of Hell in the Bible (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; parallels to the same; Matt 7:21-23; 8:12; 13:42; 24:29-31, 45-51; 25:30-32, 41-46; Rev 2:11, etc.).

(3) God is the Judge and sends the unsaved to Hell (Matt 25:41; 2 Pet 2:4, 9).

(4) In another sense, people send themselves to Hell, as they willing sin against God (Rom 2:5; 3:23; 1 Cor 6:9).

(5) Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), but Satan's seed (Gen 3:15) will spend eternity there as well (Rev 20:14).

(6) Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning (Rom 8:7-8; Rev 21:8; 22:14-15). Since the sinners in Hell keep sinning there is perpetual punishment.

(7) Hell is a waterless place with no exit (Luke 16:24-26).

(8) Hell is a bottomless pit (Rev 20:1).

(9) Hell is a lake of fire into which the wicked will be cast alive forever (Rev 19:20; 20:15).

(10) Hell is a place of eternal torments (Luke 16:23).

(11) Hell is a place of everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46).

(12) Hell is a place of everlasting destruction from the presence of God (2 Thess 1:6-10).

(13) Hell is a place of being cut into pieces (Matt 24:51).

(14) Hell is a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

(15) Hell is a place of outer darkness, of weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30).

(16) It's not enough for God to take us out of Hell; he must remove Hell out of us; and thus he sent his only begotten Son to die for the sins of his people (Rom 5:8; Jude 1:23; John 1:29).

they also will not accept the very words of the Lord Himself and almost never even mention Jesus and Hid words concerning Hell .

they do the following when Jesus said Hell is an eternal torment they say:

1. look up what the word parish means
2. death
3. it a parable
4. for ever does mean for ever how can abody be burned for ever

it's foolisness Lol

 
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CS1, I just want to point out that in some cases, what you would call an annihilationist doesn't actually believe that no one will face eternal torment. I think some are like me and do clearly see some will, but they also find other verses that seem to suggest some men may be shown the mercy of annihilation rather than the full strength of Gods' wrath.

I originally was thinking it only said the unholy trinity that would face the full and undiluted strength of Gods' wrath but penned helped me to see that is also said of anyone who takes the mark. So I had to adjust my thinking some.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,335
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113
it is mindboggling the idea of annihilationism .

the main concept is unbiblical from it’s origin LOL.


Saint Anselm once said we should give thanks for whatever of the Christian faith we can understand with our minds; but when we come to something we don’t understand, we should “bow our heads in reverent submission.”

The traditional doctrine of hell is currently undergoing significant challenges from both within and without the church. Many question the reality of hell outright, while many others opt toward annihiliationism which is :


the belief that the damned won’t suffer eternally but will instead have their consciousness extinguished at some point.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternal Hell:

(1) God made Hell because of who he is - holy, holy, holy (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8) - and thus is too pure to look upon sin (Hab 1:13).

(2) God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and while he spoke more concerning Heaven than he did Hell, in his holiness and honesty Jesus spoke about Hell (i.e. Gehenna) a considerable amount of times too - since he is the Word, Jesus is actually the author of every usage of Hell in the Bible (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; parallels to the same; Matt 7:21-23; 8:12; 13:42; 24:29-31, 45-51; 25:30-32, 41-46; Rev 2:11, etc.).

(3) God is the Judge and sends the unsaved to Hell (Matt 25:41; 2 Pet 2:4, 9).

(4) In another sense, people send themselves to Hell, as they willing sin against God (Rom 2:5; 3:23; 1 Cor 6:9).

(5) Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), but Satan's seed (Gen 3:15) will spend eternity there as well (Rev 20:14).

(6) Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning (Rom 8:7-8; Rev 21:8; 22:14-15). Since the sinners in Hell keep sinning there is perpetual punishment.

(7) Hell is a waterless place with no exit (Luke 16:24-26).

(8) Hell is a bottomless pit (Rev 20:1).

(9) Hell is a lake of fire into which the wicked will be cast alive forever (Rev 19:20; 20:15).

(10) Hell is a place of eternal torments (Luke 16:23).

(11) Hell is a place of everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46).

(12) Hell is a place of everlasting destruction from the presence of God (2 Thess 1:6-10).

(13) Hell is a place of being cut into pieces (Matt 24:51).

(14) Hell is a place where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

(15) Hell is a place of outer darkness, of weeping, and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30).

(16) It's not enough for God to take us out of Hell; he must remove Hell out of us; and thus he sent his only begotten Son to die for the sins of his people (Rom 5:8; Jude 1:23; John 1:29).

they also will not accept the very words of the Lord Himself and almost never even mention Jesus and Hid words concerning Hell .

they do the following when Jesus said Hell is an eternal torment they say:

1. look up what the word parish means
2. death
3. it a parable
4. for ever does mean for ever how can abody be burned for ever

it's foolisness Lol

Foolishness indeed.

Jesus spoke of hell as a place of outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. The fire of hell is the wrath of God poured out upon sin. We often forget that hell was created for the devil and his angels not for man.

The bush burned in front of Moses and was not consumed that was the glory of God in the bush. Why is it so difficult to see that the wrath of God can burn and not consume?

We rightly fear hell as it is a terrible place of which we cannot comprehend its terrors. Just to imagine the utter loneliness of a place where the presence of God is never felt.

We do not want to think on these things because we know people who are likely in that terrible place. That should make avid soul winners of all of us. Yet we too often want the approval of men more than the approval of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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(6) Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning (Rom 8:7-8; Rev 21:8; 22:14-15). Since the sinners in Hell keep sinning there is perpetual punishment.
Lets look at this ridiculous claim just a little more.

You say "Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning", and then give these three scripture references as "proof".

Rom 8:
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rev 21:
8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:
14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

None of those scripture state that a person in hell can never stop sinning.

Then you say:
Since the sinners in Hell keep sinning there is perpetual punishment.
What you're saying is that God, who is love, light, no darkness, mercy, kindness, and more, is going to make it so people who are thrown into hell -cannot- stop sinning, and then torture them mercilessly forever for something they cannot NOT do. IOW, they are being forced to sin so God can keep torturing them forever because they are sinning.

Is this really the view you have of God?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,335
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CS1, I just want to point out that in some cases, what you would call an annihilationist doesn't actually believe that no one will face eternal torment. I think some are like me and do clearly see some will, but they also find other verses that seem to suggest some men may be shown the mercy of annihilation rather than the full strength of Gods' wrath.

I originally was thinking it only said the unholy trinity that would face the full and undiluted strength of Gods' wrath but penned helped me to see that is also said of anyone who takes the mark. So I had to adjust my thinking some.
God desires to be merciful to His creation man. But God's righteous justice demands satisfaction upon sin. Men who refuse to release their sin to Christ will be bound to their sin for eternity. The wrath of God abiding upon sin in hell for eternity. Because men cleave to their sin they are condemned with their sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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Lets look at this ridiculous claim just a little more.

You say "Hell is a place where one can never stop sinning", and then give these three scripture references as "proof".

Rom 8:
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rev 21:
8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:
14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

None of those scripture state that a person in hell can never stop sinning.

Then you say:
What you're saying is that God, who is love, light, no darkness, mercy, kindness, and more, is going to make it so people who are thrown into hell -cannot- stop sinning, and then torture them mercilessly forever for something they cannot NOT do. IOW, they are being forced to sin so God can keep torturing them forever because they are sinning.

Is this really the view you have of God?
lol shume context of the sinful nature that has not be regenerated by the power of God through the born again experience. You need to see the Full word of God to have a more clearer understanding . it’s ok your wrong on this :)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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lol shume context of the sinful nature that has not be regenerated by the power of God through the born again experience. You need to see the Full word of God to have a more clearer understanding . it’s ok your wrong on this :)
Your defense of your position leaves a lot to be desired.

All you basically say is "your {sic} wrong".
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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God desires to be merciful to His creation man.
Yes, He does.

But God's righteous justice demands satisfaction upon sin.
What did God specifically say is the wages of sin?

Rom 6:
23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Men who refuse to release their sin to Christ will be bound to their sin for eternity.
Sounds religious, but what does it mean, and where is that in the Bible?

The wrath of God abiding upon sin in hell for eternity.
Again, sounds religious, but what does it mean, and where is that in the Bible?

Because men cleave to their sin they are condemned with their sin.
What are they condemned to? Death.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,466
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like normal nobody reads my posts, and you did not answer the question.

Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

so why would someone present already with the Lord, wish to be accepted ?

besides the bible says no man has been to heaven and seen God. plain english

Good day prove-all,

It wasn't that I didn't read your post, but you listed the KJV which says:

"Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."

The Greek word used is "euarestos" which means "well-pleasing. Therefore, the correct rendering is as follows:

"Therefore also we are ambitious, whether being at home or being away, to be well-pleasing to Him.

For of all, I did read your post, but didn't recognize the word "accepted." By your question, you're taking the word "accepted" to mean that there may be an issue of being accepted by Christ or not once departing to be in His presence, but that is not what the scripture is saying. The word "accepted" is not a proper translation. It would help you to understand individual verses of scripture better if you would look at all of the major translations at the same time and then look at the interlinear and the actual word being used, instead of just relying on the KJV. For example, below are the major translations of the verse in question:

Strong's Concordance
euarestos: well-pleasing
Original Word: εὐάρεστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: euarestos
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-ar'-es-tos)
Short Definition: acceptable, well-pleasing
Definition: acceptable, well-pleasing (especially to God), grateful.

HELPS Word-studies
2101
euárestos (from 2095 /eú, "well, good" and 700 /aréskō, "to please") – properly, well-pleasing (gratifying) because fully acceptable.

Take note that the majority translate "euarestos" as "well-pleasing" or "to please." It is only the King James versions that use the word "acceptable" and not in the way you are thinking. The translated word "acceptable" can be used, but not in the sense of whether or not Christ will receive us or not once we have departed to be in His presence, but "acceptable" in that our ambition is to live a pleasing life. For if an individual was not acceptable in the way that you are trying to used the word, they wouldn't be departing to be in His presence in the first, but would have gone down to Hades. To be clearer, if one finds themselves in the presence of the Lord after the death of the body, then that person was pleasingly acceptable to the Lord.

New International Version
So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

New Living Translation
So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.

English Standard Version
So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

Berean Study Bible
So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore also we are ambitious, whether being at home or being away, to be well-pleasing to Him.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

King James Bible
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to be pleasing to him.

Contemporary English Version
But whether we are at home with the Lord or away from him, we still try our best to please him.

Good News Translation
More than anything else, however, we want to please him, whether in our home here or there.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to be pleasing to Him.

International Standard Version
So whether we are at home or away from home, our goal is to be pleasing to him.

NET Bible
So then whether we are alive or away, we make it our ambition to please him.

New Heart English Bible
Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
We are diligent that, whether away from home or an inhabitant, we may be pleasing to him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whether we live in the body or move out of it, our goal is to be pleasing to him.

New American Standard 1977
Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore we also procure, whether present or absent, that we may please him.

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

American King James Version
Why we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

American Standard Version
Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And therefore we labour, whether absent or present, to please him.

Darby Bible Translation
Wherefore also we are zealous, whether present or absent, to be agreeable to him.

English Revised Version
Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted by him.

Weymouth New Testament
And for this reason also we make it our ambition, whether at home or in exile, to please Him perfectly.

World English Bible
Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.

Young's Literal Translation
Wherefore also we are ambitious, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to him,
 
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Strong's is not a good concordance to use. It is a backwards translation from KJV. So, you are getting 16th century definitions and theology. In 400 years, we have learned a lot - like that appolumi means "ruin, destroy" (BDAG) NOT "destroy completely."
I've been thinking more about this. Been rattling around in my head.
When talking about destroy in the context of that particular verse (don't fear man who can only kill your body but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell), Strong's seems good to me with the destroy completely or fully definition because it fits the context of the verse very well.

It's saying like... men can only do you THIS damage but God can do you THIS MUCH MORE damage.
Kill versus destroy completely.

The other thought I had was that if when a man dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it,
Eccles 12:7 -
New Living Translation
For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

then how is it that his spirit is also in another place in eternal torment...his spirit is returned to God who gave it AND his spirit is in the lake of fire...?
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Well, I disagree. I think I am okay. :) And if I spend hours on reading the bible and you spend hours on reading commentaries, that is your choice and my choice.

There is no doubt in your mind that there is a hell and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a hell, so we're both okay there. :)

As for annihilationism (and by that I mean not whatever any other annihilationist thinks but what I think regarding it, because if you're going to slap labels on me, at least do me the courtesy of actually listening to what I think, not what you think all annihilationists think), God has every right to be more lenient or to pour out the fullest measure of His wrath, on whoever He cares to. I absolutely leave that to Him. You pecking at me is not going to get me to pronounce judgement on men that they will all be forever in torment. What I read doesn't seem to suggest it for all. IF I am wrong and God pours out the very fullest measure of His wrath on exactly every man you say He will, He will forgive me for not understanding what I have read perfectly. But judgement and passing sentences more lenient and more severe is something I WILL NOT DO, so you can give up on that - I fear God more than I do your sharp tongue! :LOL:

Please read more carefully! :) Because I didn't say they had no bible - I said they didn't have what you claim is absolutely necessary - the very best lexicon and at least 20 other sources. They had the OT and a growing body of letters from the apostles which they treasured, copied and passed around.

I use the internet too! And I have electricity! :LOL:

Maybe the reason you think my theology is so bad is because you are insisting things about me that aren't true - like that I don't believe in hell, that I refuse all science and advances, and that I don't read anything other than the bible. (Reading the old saints is vastly superior to me than commentaries but we each have our own style.)

I've never been on the receiving end of one of your stern, tongue slapping diatribes. I feel like a member of the club now. Do I get a pin? :p

By the way, I love you angela. :)

I wasn't directly referring to you with that comment about no Bible. I just hear it thrown around so much (or at me!) everytime I try to read the Greek. Sorry if you thought that was specifically referring to you! But, you keep reposting the same comment over, to defend your annihilationism. That is bad hermeneutics. If something has lots of support, make a doctrine for it. It there is no much support, or the support is iffy (like using Strong's for a definition!) then, try not to make it a doctrine.

I still don't understand why people are really arguing about this. I avoided this thread like the plague. I don't understand, because no one is going to lose their salvation, about what they believe about where the lost go when they die. So much more important to live for Jesus! But, not one thread about spiritual formation in this whole forum, just arguing about side issues. Which is also not addressed to you!

And you know I love you, too! Sorry you thought because I quoted you, my whole post was directed to you. I tend to go down a lot of rabbit trails, I didn't mean for it to come off as attacking you. Please forgive me!
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
Okay Angela, fair enough. I will repost with modern English. This will be in NKJV. I hope it helps. Thanks.

Angela, could you weigh the following scriptures without deducing Rev. 20:10 is nothing more than a memorial, like we have films of cleaning out the holocaust death camps. Somehow these scenes are preserved. File, tape or digitally, I am sure we don't need to give God an idea on how to store data. The same in Mark 9 where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Now for Rev. 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." ESV uses "were." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.

Eze. 28:14: "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you."

Eze. 28:19: "All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

You are the Greek expert, how do we parse Rev. 20:10 with Eze. 28:19?