THE HOLINESS OF GOD IS WITHOUT COMPROMISE, --- so how did sin invade mankind?

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Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
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#22
Hi Matt,

You found the right verse in Ezekiel 28.

3. Quote from Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary: The story of the beginning of sin is nowhere related explicitly in the Word; but these certain passages seem to hint so strongly that the following theory has long been held to explain them. Isaiah 14:12-15 is apparently directed to “the king of Babylon,” and Ezekiel 28:12-17 similarly to “the prince of Tyre,” but in each case (in these interwoven prophecies) the prophet uses language which could not truly and literally refer to any mere man. End of quote. --- The first passage says:
--- Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,[b] (day star, son of the morning!) How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#23
3. And the second: --- Ezekiel 28:12 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#24
Sorry, the last post was wrongly numbered. My mistake, it should have been number 4.

5.
To go back to the the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, it continues: --- Quote: “Apparently God first peopled the universe, or at least our part of it with a hierarchy of holy angels, of whom one of the orders was (or contained) the Cherubim. One of them, perhaps the highest of all was "the anointed cherub that covereth," who was created beautiful and perfect in his ways. The cherub knew that he was beautiful, but pride entered his heart and the first sin in the whole history of eternity occurred. Pride led to self-will (Is14:13-14) and self-will to rebellion. This great cherub became the adversary (Satan) of God, and apparently led other angels into rebellion.” End of quote. --- This Is the long held theory that gives insight into the origin of sin.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#25
It is who God is that makes everything else the way it appears.
God is truth and He is also the savior from the beginning- it follows that He must save if He is truth truth, if He doesn't then we call Him a liar; God forbid.

If God is perfect, everything else must be imperfect- don't you get it?
He commands us as he works in us to be perfect or complete but we can only be complete in him as He sets aside men as Holy or perfect.

Yes even the Son of man when called good master, teacher declared that only God not seen is good. God, not seen, defines good by that which he creates, that seen. His law of faith ( the unseen) defines him

It’s the one reason why without parables he spoke not using the prescription in1 Corinthians 4:18


While we look not at the things which are seen, but atthe things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; butthe things which are not seen are eternal. 1 Corinthians 4:18
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#26
Hi Garee,

Noose said, quote: If God is perfect, everything else must be imperfect-
You said, quote: He commands us as he works in us to be perfect or complete but we can only be complete in him as He sets aside men as Holy or perfect. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.Being a Christian comes with a work schedule, and the Holy Spirit leads us to do the good works He has assigned to us.Because of our nature we often fail, so do we ever become perfect, or reach a level of holiness?--- I have thought of ‘being perfect,’ as being complete, or mature, or ‘grown up’ in our faith, so that when the Lord leads us to do something (even out of our comfort zone) He can depend on us.--- Do you believe there are some who God sets aside as holy or perfect?
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#27
6. Now, back to the first question, “So if God demands Holiness from us, why did He allow sin in the world? And how did it start?” --- There is evidence that God created many angels, in fact many orders of angels, who were obedient to Him. In the Scriptures the word million was not used, so the way large numbers were expressed was like this in Daniel 7:10 “A thousand thousands ministered to Him. Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.” --- So there were lots of angels, but if they were programmed to be holy and obedient, perhaps there was something missing. If God’s predominating characteristic was love, perhaps His desire was to have some beings who would love Him, in response to His love for them.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
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#28
Hi Garee,

Noose said, quote: If God is perfect, everything else must be imperfect-
You said, quote: He commands us as he works in us to be perfect or complete but we can only be complete in him as He sets aside men as Holy or perfect.Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.Being a Christian comes with a work schedule, and the Holy Spirit leads us to do the good works He has assigned to us.Because of our nature we often fail, so do we ever become perfect, or reach a level of holiness?--- I have thought of ‘being perfect,’ as being complete, or mature, or ‘grown up’ in our faith, so that when the Lord leads us to do something (even out of our comfort zone) He can depend on us.--- Do you believe there are some who God sets aside as holy or perfect?
I would offer our merciful God sets aside all his children as complete, Holy or perfect from the first moment he gives us his faith to believe Him not seen.

In that way Hebrews informs us he is the author or Alfa and Omega as one who perfects, finishing the work as we work with him (imputed righteousness)

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He is our confidence we are to put no confidence in the flesh. Again he gives us His confidence as he works in us. If he has begun the good work of perfecting us he will finish make it perfect it to the end.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

All believers shed their bodies of death and will receive the end of the promise our new incorruptible bodies. All will, all together finish it in the twinkling of the eye in the new heavens and earth on the last day

(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made "perfect" Hebrews11:37-40
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#29
Hi Garee,

Quote: “I would offer our merciful God sets aside all his children as complete, Holy or perfect from the first moment he gives us his faith to believe Him not seen.

In that way Hebrews informs us he is the author or Alfa and Omega as one who perfects, finishing the work as we work with him (imputed righteousness).

I agree that from God's ability to save us, as soon as we accept Jesus Christ by faith and commit ourselves to the Lord, His promise is to save us. --- But the work of cleansing or working through our problems depends also on us, does it not?

Paul said in Colossians 3:8 “You yourselves put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.”

If a believer continues in these sins and character flaws that he should put off, at what point is he a good witness for the Lord?
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#30
7. So God created this order of angels through Love and Holiness, and with the expectation of receiving the same in return, but in giving them an intellect to choose, there was the chance of betrayal. --- Because this was all in ‘history past,’ we don’t know how long the ‘peaceful bliss’ lasted. God, out of Love and Holiness had created the Cherubim perfect, and even chose a leader from among them, --- It says in Ezekiel 28:12 “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.” 14 “You were the anointed Cherub (the leader), I established you.” 15 “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”

 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#31
8. The evidence is that God did not create sin. Sin developed in a created being. This one who was chosen as ‘leader’ was ‘perfect in his ways from the day he was created,’ therefore, he was created perfect. --- As leader, other angels would respond to him and he had their obedience. At some point he thought of having his own kingdom. Isaiah 14:13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ --- “He said in his heart,” so the heart is the birthplace of sin. The first sin was pride, the second sin was self-will, or self exaltation, which led to rebellion. --- Notice that pride, lie, sin, crime, and guilt, all have I in the middle.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
7,874
411
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#32
The angels were made perfect and some of them fell.

Mankind is made fallen and some of them are perfected.


How did sin invade mankind? God allowed it.

So that mankind would be in a fallen state and those who believed and trusted in Him could be saved and perfected.

And grateful for it.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#33
9. This rebellion caused temporary division and God had to cleanse heaven to keep it holy. He removed the ‘instigator of sin,’ and all his followers, to restore perfect Holiness in heaven. --- Holiness cannot be compromised, or it is not Holiness, and this is God’s standard for entrance into heaven. --- In the later creation on earth God said, “Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.” This was a physical flesh and bones body, alive in the Holy Spirit. And the first recipients, Adam and Eve, also had an intellect to make choices. --- Satan had no more access to God’s heaven, but he had access to the Garden of Eden, and we know the story. After a period of peaceful bliss, Adam and Eve were led into sin, and were cast out of the garden.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#34
10. “As through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, for all have sinned.” Romans 5:12. It says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (believers) shall be made alive.” --- So how can we escape this penalty? --- Jesus said in John 3:5 “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” --- One must accept Jesus as their Savior, then the study and application of the ‘word of God’ is the ‘water’ that cleanses. The indwelling Holy Spirit gives the ‘new birth.’ We then have the spiritual awareness of heaven; but we are living in a sinful world, and with our human nature, we are still a long way from holiness, are we not?
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#35
11. “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21. The word ‘become’ suggests ‘a process.’ Paul wrote in Romans 12:1 That we present our bodies a living sacrifice, as ‘yielded vessels’ to God. 2 Not conformed to the world, but ‘transformed’ by the renewing of our minds. --- He gets personal in Colossians 3:8 “You yourselves put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.” So the ‘becoming righteous’ is not done for us, but by us.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#36
11. “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21. The word ‘become’ suggests ‘a process.’ Paul wrote in Romans 12:1 That we present our bodies a living sacrifice, as ‘yielded vessels’ to God. 2 Not conformed to the world, but ‘transformed’ by the renewing of our minds. --- He gets personal in Colossians 3:8 “You yourselves put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.” So the ‘becoming righteous’ is not done for us, but by us.
Colossians 3:17(KJV)
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
-You cannot renew your mind on your own,one needs Jesus.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#37
Colossians 3:17(KJV)
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
-You cannot renew your mind on your own,one needs Jesus.

Hi Joefizz,

You are right, we cannot renew our mind without making some changes in our thinking patterns. Someone said, "You are what you think about."

If as Paul wrote, “You yourselves put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.”
--- So, if we renew our lifestyle by accepting Jesus as our Savior, and receive the Holy Spirit, we have new life, new directives and new thoughts, so that is the renewing of the mind, is it not?
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#38
12 Righteousness simply means rightness, and our new ‘walk with the Lord’ means conforming to His plan for our life, and that means ‘doing right.’ Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8 “For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves; it (grace) is the gift of God, 9 not of works (any merit or action of our own), lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship (workers), created (re-created or transformed) in Christ Jesus for (doing) good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” --- So becoming a Christian comes with a work schedule, --- to do His will in working out the unholiness in our lives. We are to become ‘vessels of love, joy and peace.’
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#39
13. Paul continues with the enrichment of the spiritual life, as he wrote in Galatians 5, (comparing our spiritual lives to a garden which produces good fruit), --- 22 “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering (patience), kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” --- I must admit as believers we often fail to do God’s will in both the work He gives us to do, and in our emotions and attitudes, as mentioned above. We lapse back temporarily until we feel that hint of conviction by the Holy Spirit, then we humbly ask His forgiveness and continue on. --- Notice that it says, “Against such there is no law.” All the Laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled in our love for God, and our fellow man.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
212
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#40
14. The night before Jesus was crucified, He taught the 11 disciples, in Matthew 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (Is this not how we recognize other believers?) --- Jesus was asked by a lawyer in Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”