THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE CHURCH WILL BE TAKEN OUT BEFORE ANTICHRIST COMES

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Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#21
unbelieving jews in the trib are not saints
A non believer is a non believer. However - in the tribulation a person would become a saint if he were to reject the Antichrist and give testimony to God. He would die for Christ, as a martyr, and be resurrected. There will be many tribulation saints - those who were non believers of Christ or religious leaders even who were not saved... many will die as martyrs.

Rev 20:4: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#22
Not to mention, the word 'church' in the bible disappears after Rev 3 and does not get mentioned again until Rev 22. There is a big gap between these chapters..
 
P

peterT

Guest
#24
Not to mention, the word 'church' in the bible disappears after Rev 3 and does not get mentioned again until Rev 22. There is a big gap between these chapters..
The word church no, but the church the people of God O yes it dose.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#25
Not to mention, the word 'church' in the bible disappears after Rev 3 and does not get mentioned again until Rev 22. There is a big gap between these chapters..
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The church is where two or three are gathered together.

There’s two just for a start .

Rv11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#26
A non believer is a non believer. However - in the tribulation a person would become a saint if he were to reject the Antichrist and give testimony to God. He would die for Christ, as a martyr, and be resurrected. There will be many tribulation saints - those who were non believers of Christ or religious leaders even who were not saved... many will die as martyrs.

Rev 20:4: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
how can anybody "die for Christ" if there's no church/no preaching and no Holy Spirit?

There will be many tribulation saints - those who were non believers of Christ or religious leaders even who were not saved... many will die as martyrs

There will be many tribulation saints:
non believers of Christ
religious leaders even who were not saved

?
so getting killed during the eschaton is the gospel?
an unbeliever who gets killed is suddenly a saint?

no. the saints in the tribulation are same ones who existed before it started. and new ones come to Christ during it UNTIL the time of repentence is over - not by osmosis or by being killed while unregenerate.: same way as always: the Father draws them to Christ and they believe the Gospel.

it is written that ALL who do not have their names written in the Book of Life take the mark.
that means all who don't are saved christians.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#27
how can anybody "die for Christ" if there's no church/no preaching and no Holy Spirit?.
This funny mental belief alone shows the devilish origin of dispensational heresy.

"Go Mentill" as Joey Ramone had it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#28
This funny mental belief alone shows the devilish origin of dispensational heresy.

"Go Mentill" as Joey Ramone had it.
dispensational theology is an extremely clever and tightly knit machine.
the very fact it is getting so much 'outside help' should be a red light.
amazing.
scary.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#29
nah.
saints in the tribulation are saints who enter the tribulation.
they are blood-bought christians.

unbelieving jews in the trib are not saints, nor unbelieving gentiles.
the church is here, so is the Holy Spirit.

no new species of saints appears, concocted for "the return to Plan A after the Plan B church has been 'raptured'", according to dispensational scenario.
You like to have fun with this Plan A & B thing. The only ones that will enter and have to take part in the great tribulation coming upon the earth will be the Jews who lives in unbelief and the children of disobedience. The church and bride have no part in that time of trouble and will be caught up before it all begins. That is the hope and the joy and rejoicing of the heart that the Holy Spirit has given to the believer through the scriptures. Praise God for His mercy.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#30
Oh pleeeeeeaaaaassssseeeee....wheres the hope for all the nonamericans who have suffered and been
killed throughout the church age?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#31
You like to have fun with this Plan A & B thing.
it ain't my Plan A & B thing. it's yours.
and it ain't fun.

repent and be forgiven.



ditch it.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#32
it ain't my Plan A & B thing. it's yours.
and it ain't fun.

repent and be forgiven.



ditch it.
...and forsake the truth? That would be a departure of the faith and a very unwise thing to give place to. You are screwed up and it is no one else's fault but your own. You have the wrong knowledge and understanding and it has made you very careless in other areas of doctrine. If you want to lean on your own understanding and what comes from others that are also screwed up as yourself, go right ahead. You have to live with it and you will never, never, never convince any believer who has integrity and is established in the truth that lives and breaths in the cells of his being. When the word dwells richly in the heart it moves into the cells of the body and brings health to the marrow of the bones. Your doctrine on this matter decays the bones and drys them out. Maybe you should study the doctrine of the bones, its in your Bible.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#33
...and forsake the truth? That would be a departure of the faith and a very unwise thing to give place to. You are screwed up and it is no one else's fault but your own. You have the wrong knowledge and understanding and it has made you very careless in other areas of doctrine. If you want to lean on your own understanding and what comes from others that are also screwed up as yourself, go right ahead. You have to live with it and you will never, never, never convince any believer who has integrity and is established in the truth that lives and breaths in the cells of his being. When the word dwells richly in the heart it moves into the cells of the body and brings health to the marrow of the bones. Your doctrine on this matter decays the bones and drys them out. Maybe you should study the doctrine of the bones, its in your Bible.
all the insults and thrashing in the world won't make this about me Red.
this heretical trash is your problem. not mine.
your Plan B church.
what a disaster.

Southern Baptist Heresy: Rapture and Premillennial Dispensationalism

This week Baptist Press, the public relations / promotion arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, explores and explains why Southern Baptists must place their faith in the 1830s-era religious heresies of Rapture and Premillennial Dispensationalism.

Almost all Southern Baptist college and seminary professors believe in Dispensationalism and Rapture, with variance on minor details, according to Baptist Press. Danny Akin, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, declares thus: "The truth of the rapture is not up for debate, but its timing is something we can graciously disagree on." Lamar Cooper, the interim president of Criswell College in Dallas,insists "premillennial dispensationalism is a logical conclusion from the simple exegesis of the inerrant Word of God."

For the uninitiated, the theories of the Rapture and Premillennial Dispensationalismwere created in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby, a renegade minister in the (Anglican) Church of Ireland. A few historians also credit a contemporary of Darby's, and a handful of obscure individuals in the decades prior to Darby wrote vaguely of a secret coming of Christ for the faithful. But to Darby goes the public credit for the concepts, for which he is justly known as the "father of premillennial dispensationalism." In short, while most Christians prior to Darby believed that Christ would one day return and judge the world, Darby crafted the formal theory of a "second coming": a "secret rapture" of believers from earth that would precede the traditional second coming.

But Darby did not stop there. He also invented an entirely new system of eschatology (a word that means "end times") based upon his creation of a seven-age "dispensationalism" of world history (in effect, a dividing of human history into seven periods of time, each characterized by a different manner in which God interacted with humanity, and culminating in the Rapture, followed by a seven-year period of intense tribulation on earth and the final second coming of Christ in triumph). Although neither dispensationalism nor rapture were biblical concepts, Darby taught that the Bible must be interpreted in light of his personal theories.

Collectively, Darby's theories became known as premillennial dispensationalism ... and outside of his little circle of followers, were immediately dismissed by Christians as heresy.

But then a very strange thing happened: Darby's heresy began a slow journey to orthodoxy. His followship grew slowly but steadily, and although Darby died in 1882, in the early 20th century his heretical creations were blessed by Christian fundamentalists (who arose in the late 19th century, but that's another story!) as ... biblical truth. The final seal of approval arrived in the form ofC. I. Scofield's Study Bible, which in 1917 presented Darbyism as orthodoxy.....

http://baptistperspective.brucegourley.com/2009/12/southern-baptist-heresy-rapture-and.html
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#34
Zone,

Even you believe that there was a dispensation of time when God used prophets to communicate the word of God to Israel and to the people of the earth until the canon of scriptures were complete and then were removed and not needed in the plan of God. Were not the people of Israel under the law of Moses until Christ came and through His death. burial and resurrection were then put under grace? Was not this part of the mystery of Christ and the church that was given to Paul by revelation? John's baptism was unto repentance but his baptism was superseded by the baptism of Christ, the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ. You do recognize that these were done for a dispensation of time, man was no longer under the obligation of the law or under its penalty for transgressing it because of the finished work of Christ.

At the inception of the church and for a designated time, the apostles and also prophets were used and various gifts of the Spirit were given to communicate messages, the word of God, the building of the foundation of the church and its edification, and then were done away. That was part of God's eternal purpose that was purposed in Christ for a dispensation of the grace of God given to God's people under the inspiration, anointing and activity of the Holy Spirit. We get to partake of that fruit and the results of Pentecost through the glorious gospel. We also have become the fruit of the gospel as the church and body of Christ. This is part of the mystery that was hid and given to Paul in the dispensation of grace. The church is the mystery from its revelation, inception, calling, justification and its ascendsion to be with the glorified Christ in the clouds of the air being caught away before that great tribulation comes upon the earth (Mt 24:21).

This mystery was not given to any of the prophets of Israel in any other time prior to Christ and the revelation and knowledge given to Paul. You might not consider the mystery of the church a dispensation of the grace of God but the Holy Spirit through the scriptures disagrees with you and is your adversary because you do not agree with him and have been thrown into the prison of your own knowledge and understanding that has become the error of your way that needs conversion (Eph 3:1-12, Col 1:9-29, Eph 1:1-14, Mt 5:25,26). Peter lived in much error in his thinking because of the law and it effected the kind of love he had in his heart and Satan took a desire and advantage to sift Peter as wheat and overthrow his faith because of it. He lived in this prison mentally and probably denied and forsook Christ for a time because of it. He needed to be converted and the Lord gave him a promise that when he was finally converted he would be able to feed His sheep and His lamb's (Lk 22:32, Jn 21:14-19).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#35
Ephesians 2
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

~

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism", later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. However, Darby held a view that would today be called hyperdispensationalist; for rather than identifying Pentecost as the start of the church age, Darby writes[12]:
"Stephen formed the link between Jewish rejection and the position and state of the church which followed...Stephen was the closing of the Jewish ‘possibility of the dispensation.' But a new scene now opens—the regular Gentile form and order of the dispensation in the hands of the apostle Paul, the apostle of the uncircumcision, the apostle of the Gentiles. Did he then derive it from the apostles? or was he indeed a successor to our Lord by earthly appointment and derivation? No; in no wise."[13]
Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularised Darby, although not his hyperdispensational approach,[14] more than any other Brethren author. In the early twentieth century, the Brethren's teachings, through Margaret E. Barber, influenced the Little Flock of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee[15]

As there was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s, he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this book was the origin of the idea of the "rapture." Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again," and they believe that in His grace he will do so according to their understanding of Old Testament prophecy. They believe that, while the ways of God may change, His purposes to bless Israel will never be forgotten, just as He has shown unmerited favour to the Church, He will do so to a remnant of Israel to fulfill all the promises made to the genetic seed of Abraham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

~

Evidently, instead of reading a written work like its original author intended (“exegesis”), the impact of this philosophy probably led many Christians to force ideas out of and into the Bible (“eisegesis”).

There had to have been precisely 5000 men who ate the bread of Jesus in John 6, not 5001 or 4999. Why? Because a true interpretation of the Bible must be a wooden, literalistic one – one that meets up to our modern standards of precision, not to the author’s own intention. Alas, Scottish Common Sense Philosophy largely assisted in the birth of Dispensationalism and its literalistic method.[6]

One particular example of this literalism at work is when Dispensationalists require that the word “Israel” must always mean the literal nation of Israel anytime it is mentioned in the New Testament.[7] Context, purpose, authorship, genre, and everything else related to exegesis are secondary (if not irrelevant). So, in Galatians 6:16, where Paul uses the expression “Israel of God” to refer to both the Jewish and Gentile Galatians, dispensationalists are forced to say Paul is only referring to the national kingdom of Israel. But that’s just not true. As Cambridge scholar G.K. Beale remarked,
Since the dominant message is one of doing away with national distinctions among God’s people (3,7-8.26-29; 4,26-31; 5,2-12), it would seem unlikely that Paul would conclude the epistle by referring to those in the church according to their ethnic distinctives. This idea is especially unlikely since 6,11-18, as the conclusion of the epistle, is intended by Paul to summarize its major themes. [8]
Therefore, to say “the Israel of God” refers only to the physical, “literal,” nation of the Jews in Galatians 6:16, is just bad hermeneutics.

What is the Church?
Not only did Darby believe the church was ruined, but he also believed the church didn’t exist in the Old Testament. He said, “A Jewish church is an unscriptural fallacy,” and “the body of the church could not exist before the glorification of Jesus, for this would have been a body without a Head.”[9]
Covenant theology, on the other hand, recognizes the overall continuity of God’s work in history; the New and Old Testaments may be different, but they are not alien to each other. If the church is a group of people that believe in God and God’s promises,[10] then the church, at least in a very general sense, begins with Abraham. The church isn’t a radical new idea. It has historical and theological roots (just like the other aspects of a covenant, such as a meal of celebration, a seal of blood, a visible sign, etc.). That’s partly why so many New Testament authors like Paul and James refer back to Abraham’s faith as an example for today’s Christians.

As Robert Reymond says,
The Old Testament did testify concerning the future blessings which the Gentiles would share with the Jews (see Gen. 9:26-27; 12:3 [see Gal. 3:8]; 22:18; 26:4; 28;14; Pss. 67; 72:8-11, 17; 87; Isa. 11:10; 49:6; 54:1-3 [see Gal. 4:27]…). What was not so clearly revealed in the Old Testament times was that the Gentiles would be on “a footing of perfect equality” (Hendriksen) with the Jews in Christ’s body, the church…Paul’s statements do not teach the radical conclusions which dispensationalists wish to draw from them, namely, that the Old Testament saints did not know that the Messiah would be rejected and suffer or that a distinction must be drawn between Old Testament Israel “under law” and the New Testament church “under grace,” and that these people are two people of God who are “not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.”[11]
Thus, what is somewhat new is that God’s people in the New Covenant are made up of Jews and Gentiles. In older covenants, God’s “chosen people” were normally comprised exclusively of Jews.[12] But, in the new covenant, Gentiles are “grafted in” to the existing branch of the Jewish root (Romans 11). This is the “mystery” Paul talks about in Ephesians 3:
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles – assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Eph 3:1-6, ESV, emphasis mine)
Dispensationalists believe that this text says that the church was never mentioned or prophesied about in the Old Testament. However, that’s not what the text is saying. Paul says the mystery is that “Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body,” (emphasis mine). The Gentiles are added to the faithful remnant of Old Testament Israel (Rom. 11). Today’s Christians are added to the existing group of God’s people.

That’s the mystery, nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with Old Testament prophecies regarding the New Testament church or the inauguration of a new Dispensation of Grace.

http://www.realapologetics.org/blog/2010/06/14/darbys-method-of-biblical-intepretation/
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#36
the "dispensation" of grace:

Ephesians 3:2
New International Version(©1984)
Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,

New Living Translation(©2007)
assuming, by the way, that you know God gave me the special responsibility of extending his grace to you Gentiles.

English Standard Version(©2001)
assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

International Standard Version(©2008)
Surely you have heard about the responsibility of administering God's grace that was given to me on your behalf,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
If you have heard of the administration of the grace of God, which is given to me among you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
Certainly, you have heard how God gave me the responsibility of bringing his kindness to you.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you:

American King James Version
If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

American Standard Version
if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;

Bible in Basic English
If that ordering of the grace of God has come to your knowledge, which was given to me for you,

Douay-Rheims Bible
If yet you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me towards you:

Darby Bible Translation
(if indeed ye have heard of the administration of the grace of God which has been given to me towards you,

English Revised Version
if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;

Webster's Bible Translation
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me on your account.

Weymouth New Testament
if, that is, you have heard of the work which God has graciously entrusted to me for your benefit,

World English Bible
if it is so that you have heard of the administration of that grace of God which was given me toward you;

Young's Literal Translation
if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you,
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#37
Ephesians 2
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

~

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism", later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. However, Darby held a view that would today be called hyperdispensationalist; for rather than identifying Pentecost as the start of the church age, Darby writes[12]:
"Stephen formed the link between Jewish rejection and the position and state of the church which followed...Stephen was the closing of the Jewish ‘possibility of the dispensation.' But a new scene now opens—the regular Gentile form and order of the dispensation in the hands of the apostle Paul, the apostle of the uncircumcision, the apostle of the Gentiles. Did he then derive it from the apostles? or was he indeed a successor to our Lord by earthly appointment and derivation? No; in no wise."[13]
Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularised Darby, although not his hyperdispensational approach,[14] more than any other Brethren author. In the early twentieth century, the Brethren's teachings, through Margaret E. Barber, influenced the Little Flock of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee[15]

As there was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s, he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this book was the origin of the idea of the "rapture." Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again," and they believe that in His grace he will do so according to their understanding of Old Testament prophecy. They believe that, while the ways of God may change, His purposes to bless Israel will never be forgotten, just as He has shown unmerited favour to the Church, He will do so to a remnant of Israel to fulfill all the promises made to the genetic seed of Abraham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

~

Evidently, instead of reading a written work like its original author intended (“exegesis”), the impact of this philosophy probably led many Christians to force ideas out of and into the Bible (“eisegesis”).

There had to have been precisely 5000 men who ate the bread of Jesus in John 6, not 5001 or 4999. Why? Because a true interpretation of the Bible must be a wooden, literalistic one – one that meets up to our modern standards of precision, not to the author’s own intention. Alas, Scottish Common Sense Philosophy largely assisted in the birth of Dispensationalism and its literalistic method.[6]

One particular example of this literalism at work is when Dispensationalists require that the word “Israel” must always mean the literal nation of Israel anytime it is mentioned in the New Testament.[7] Context, purpose, authorship, genre, and everything else related to exegesis are secondary (if not irrelevant). So, in Galatians 6:16, where Paul uses the expression “Israel of God” to refer to both the Jewish and Gentile Galatians, dispensationalists are forced to say Paul is only referring to the national kingdom of Israel. But that’s just not true. As Cambridge scholar G.K. Beale remarked,
Since the dominant message is one of doing away with national distinctions among God’s people (3,7-8.26-29; 4,26-31; 5,2-12), it would seem unlikely that Paul would conclude the epistle by referring to those in the church according to their ethnic distinctives. This idea is especially unlikely since 6,11-18, as the conclusion of the epistle, is intended by Paul to summarize its major themes. [8]
Therefore, to say “the Israel of God” refers only to the physical, “literal,” nation of the Jews in Galatians 6:16, is just bad hermeneutics.

What is the Church?
Not only did Darby believe the church was ruined, but he also believed the church didn’t exist in the Old Testament. He said, “A Jewish church is an unscriptural fallacy,” and “the body of the church could not exist before the glorification of Jesus, for this would have been a body without a Head.”[9]
Covenant theology, on the other hand, recognizes the overall continuity of God’s work in history; the New and Old Testaments may be different, but they are not alien to each other. If the church is a group of people that believe in God and God’s promises,[10] then the church, at least in a very general sense, begins with Abraham. The church isn’t a radical new idea. It has historical and theological roots (just like the other aspects of a covenant, such as a meal of celebration, a seal of blood, a visible sign, etc.). That’s partly why so many New Testament authors like Paul and James refer back to Abraham’s faith as an example for today’s Christians.

As Robert Reymond says,
The Old Testament did testify concerning the future blessings which the Gentiles would share with the Jews (see Gen. 9:26-27; 12:3 [see Gal. 3:8]; 22:18; 26:4; 28;14; Pss. 67; 72:8-11, 17; 87; Isa. 11:10; 49:6; 54:1-3 [see Gal. 4:27]…). What was not so clearly revealed in the Old Testament times was that the Gentiles would be on “a footing of perfect equality” (Hendriksen) with the Jews in Christ’s body, the church…Paul’s statements do not teach the radical conclusions which dispensationalists wish to draw from them, namely, that the Old Testament saints did not know that the Messiah would be rejected and suffer or that a distinction must be drawn between Old Testament Israel “under law” and the New Testament church “under grace,” and that these people are two people of God who are “not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive.”[11]
Thus, what is somewhat new is that God’s people in the New Covenant are made up of Jews and Gentiles. In older covenants, God’s “chosen people” were normally comprised exclusively of Jews.[12] But, in the new covenant, Gentiles are “grafted in” to the existing branch of the Jewish root (Romans 11). This is the “mystery” Paul talks about in Ephesians 3:
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles – assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Eph 3:1-6, ESV, emphasis mine)
Dispensationalists believe that this text says that the church was never mentioned or prophesied about in the Old Testament. However, that’s not what the text is saying. Paul says the mystery is that “Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body,” (emphasis mine). The Gentiles are added to the faithful remnant of Old Testament Israel (Rom. 11). Today’s Christians are added to the existing group of God’s people.

That’s the mystery, nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with Old Testament prophecies regarding the New Testament church or the inauguration of a new Dispensation of Grace.

http://www.realapologetics.org/blog/2010/06/14/darbys-method-of-biblical-intepretation/
You go through all this discourse and misunderstanding to justify one thing, that the church will pass through the tribulation and be called by the last trump to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the Second Coming of Christ to the earth at the Mount of Olives. All this twisting and rationalizing of the scriptures to justify an amillennial view. You have to mingled the scriptures concerning those who are dead and alive in Christ at His coming for the church with those that speak of the Second Coming at the end of the tribulation just to make sense of it all.

Why don't you describe for us, in your own words, what happens to the church (those that are dead and alive in Christ) at the end of the tribulation when they shall rise up to meet the Lord in the air at the second coming. I'll start you there.

*When the Lord comes to the Mount of Olives, will there already be a perfect environment for His glorified body and those that come with Him?

*Was Moses, Elijah and Christ on the Mount of transfiguration in a glorified body that Peter, James and John had seen with their own eyes?

*WHO are the ones that come back with Christ at the Second Coming and do they have their glorified bodies?

*WHEN & WHERE will the believers be judged for their works at the (Bema seat) judgment?

*WHEN & WHERE does the marriage and the supper take place between Christ and His bride?

*WHEN & WHERE does the judgment of the nations take place and what are they being judged for?

*WHERE & WHEN does the white throne judgment take place and who are the ones that will be judged?

*Don't forget to fit in the first and second resurrections and who they apply to, because they are vitally important.

IF you are a student of the word you should have NO PROBLEM answering these questions and be able to provide and chronological time-line as to their eventful occurrences. However, you seem to 'BOW OUT' and leave your answers regarding this 'stuff' to others on-line that you like to refer to. When you do that you are 'COPPING OUT' and your being an intellectual coward.

*We won't even get into the two battles that take place, one at the end of the great tribulation with the Second Coming and the other at the end of the 1,000 millennial reign of Christ. You probably think they are the same battle. How do you fit all that into your 'amillennial' view?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
IF you are a student of the word you should have NO PROBLEM answering these questions and be able to provide and chronological time-line as to their eventful occurrences. However, you seem to 'BOW OUT' and leave your answers regarding this 'stuff' to others on-line that you like to refer to. When you do that you are 'COPPING OUT' and your being an intellectual coward.

*We won't even get into the two battles that take place, one at the end of the great tribulation with the Second Coming and the other at the end of the 1,000 millennial reign of Christ. You probably think they are the same battle. How do you fit all that into your 'amillennial' view?
lol.
you're not sincere in your inquisition.
you're hardened in your hermeneutic and its not my job to fix that for you.

do your own homework.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#39
Ohhhhhhhh this thread is getting good!

Hey yall! long time no see :)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#40
Hey Elizabeth619 welcome back :)