The homosexuality question

[Meridoc]

Here is the situation from a biblical perspective. Romans 3:2, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", so we are all sinners.

So the question then needs to be answered, is homosexuality a sin? Check out Romans 1:23-27,
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." There is no question this passage shows us that homosexuality is a sin, perversion, shameful and unnatural.
We know that the "the wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23a)" but because God sent His Son to die for us "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord(Romans 6:23b)". So what does that mean we have to do? We must repent! Now to repent does not mean just feeling sorry or saying your sorry, it means so much more. Repentance is about changing, turning away from your sin and working towards being more like Christ. Does this mean if we repent we will never sin again? NO, 1 John 1:10 says "If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him(God) out to be a liar". Does this mean we should just go on sinning cause God will continue to forgive us? NO! 1 John 1:7 says "If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

Another important question to ask is, should we treat homosexuals any different from any other sinner? The answer is NO and YES. Why? Well no, because we all sin and we are to show love to all. And yes, only if they are living a homosexual lifestyle(practicing sin). The bible is very clear that those who walk in darkness(or practice sin, live a lifestyle of sin) is not of God. An example people often use is how are they different then from say an alcoholic? No difference at all. Some one living a lifestyle of homosexuality or drunkenness both practice sin and need to repent and change their ways or as John puts it they cannot truthfully claim to be of God.

Then there is the more recent question of can someone who is a homosexual be a pastor, elder, deacon, etc? The answer would be no. You might as why doesn't that seem unfair? the answer is no it is not unfair. The bible is very clear on the requirements for a pastor or leader of a church. 1 Timothy 3 talks about these expectations and requirements. If you read through them you will find that they are to be people who should be above reproach, meaning that they are a mature christian striving in the light. They are also to be married to one wife(woman). They are not to be single, drunkards, violent, greedy, quarrelsome, or gay.

This is what the bible teaches us. Those like the recent churches ordaining gay ministers are ignoring God's Word, which puts them at best on the fence(which God hates) or in the "other" camp. Should we alienate people who are gay? NO! Show them God's love and mercy, teach them, pray for them, help them, and bring them to the Cross and Repentance.

 

[resurrection33]

Sex is only permissible between lawfully married people. Two men wouldn’t want to marry each other unless they were already having sex. Homosexuality is a sin.

 

[zone]

Here is the situation from a biblical perspective. Romans 3:2, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", so we are all sinners.

So the question then needs to be answered, is homosexuality a sin? Check out Romans 1:23-27,
"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." There is no question this passage shows us that homosexuality is a sin, perversion, shameful and unnatural.
We know that the "the wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23a)" but because God sent His Son to die for us "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord(Romans 6:23b)". So what does that mean we have to do? We must repent! Now to repent does not mean just feeling sorry or saying your sorry, it means so much more. Repentance is about changing, turning away from your sin and working towards being more like Christ. Does this mean if we repent we will never sin again? NO, 1 John 1:10 says "If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him(God) out to be a liar". Does this mean we should just go on sinning cause God will continue to forgive us? NO! 1 John 1:7 says "If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

Another important question to ask is, should we treat homosexuals any different from any other sinner? The answer is NO and YES. Why? Well no, because we all sin and we are to show love to all. And yes, only if they are living a homosexual lifestyle(practicing sin). The bible is very clear that those who walk in darkness(or practice sin, live a lifestyle of sin) is not of God. An example people often use is how are they different then from say an alcoholic? No difference at all. Some one living a lifestyle of homosexuality or drunkenness both practice sin and need to repent and change their ways or as John puts it they cannot truthfully claim to be of God.

Then there is the more recent question of can someone who is a homosexual be a pastor, elder, deacon, etc? The answer would be no. You might as why doesn't that seem unfair? the answer is no it is not unfair. The bible is very clear on the requirements for a pastor or leader of a church. 1 Timothy 3 talks about these expectations and requirements. If you read through them you will find that they are to be people who should be above reproach, meaning that they are a mature christian striving in the light. They are also to be married to one wife(woman). They are not to be single, drunkards, violent, greedy, quarrelsome, or gay.

This is what the bible teaches us. Those like the recent churches ordaining gay ministers are ignoring God's Word, which puts them at best on the fence(which God hates) or in the "other" camp. Should we alienate people who are gay? NO! Show them God's love and mercy, teach them, pray for them, help them, and bring them to the Cross and Repentance.

good post meridoc

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

The thing to remember here is homosexuality is just another form of sexual immorality driven by a person's natural desire for intimacy. It is no different from adultery or an addiction to porn. A person is no more born a homosexual than they are a rapist or pedophile.

While scripture clearly indicates homosexuality is wrong, we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. I personally know a handful of converted homosexuals who have lived fulfilling Christian lives for many years. These people ussually remain unmarried because they still are not attracted to the opposite sex. They choose to live celebate lives. One of the biggest mistake people make when ministering to homosexuals is attempting to talk them into being "straight". When ministering to homosexuals, I found that easiest way to approach the situation is to talk about sin in general as unpleasing to God, then if the topic comes up discuss it however, the trick is to be as gentle as you can while also being truthful thus allowing God to do the work.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Sex is only permissible between lawfully married people. Two men wouldn’t want to marry each other unless they were already having sex.

What? No, not at all! Where do you get this idea? People know that they're attracted to certain people without having ever had sex with them... Two homosexuals can enter a relationship, fall in love with each other and want to get married without ever having had sex. I personally know a Christian homosexual couple who waited until they were married to have sex.

I don't care that you think it's a sin, that's not the point... Point is that, no sex is needed for love to exist.

 

[Stuey]

H They are also to be married to one wife(woman). They are not to be single, drunkards, violent, greedy, quarrelsome, or gay.

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

Good post Meridoc - I do think Pastors can be single, however, the passage says the husband of but one wife - I believe this verse is saying that they should not have more than one wife as opposed to they must be married. Polygamy would still have been somewhat common in New Testament times I think - not entirely sure.

Also, if a person has admitted to struggling with homosexual lust, yet is a professed christian who has and is repenting of his sin I have no problem with him being a pastor, just as if a pastor had struggled with heterosexual lust and repented and is repenting of it. Actively engaging and/or not repenting, however, I would have a problem with.

What you think?

Cheers,

Stuey

 

[Stuey]

What? No, not at all! Where do you get this idea? People know that they're attracted to certain people without having ever had sex with them... Two homosexuals can enter a relationship, fall in love with each other and want to get married without ever having had sex. I personally know a Christian homosexual couple who waited until they were married to have sex.

I don't care that you think it's a sin, that's not the point... Point is that, no sex is needed for love to exist.

I agree - though I do think they would be in the minority, as are non-christian heterosexual couples who wait until marriage.

I especially like your last sentence, many people thesedays seem to equate love with sex.

 

[FrankensteinGirls]

Sex is only permissible between lawfully married people. Two men wouldn’t want to marry each other unless they were already having sex. Homosexuality is a sin.

What gave you that idea? I'd like to see your source.

 

[zone]

What? No, not at all! Where do you get this idea? People know that they're attracted to certain people without having ever had sex with them... Two homosexuals can enter a relationship, fall in love with each other and want to get married without ever having had sex. I personally know a Christian homosexual couple who waited until they were married to have sex.

I don't care that you think it's a sin, that's not the point... Point is that, no sex is needed for love to exist.

there are no "christian homosexual couples"

you could have "homosexual couples"

or "homosexual couples" who wanted to be christians.

but there are no "christian homosexual couples"married or otherwise.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

there are no "christian homosexual couples"

you could have "homosexual couples"

or "homosexual couples" who wanted to be christians.

but there are no "christian homosexual couples"married or otherwise.

I can't count the amount of Christians who will point their finger at other Christians and say "But you're not really Christian!" because they have a small difference in interpretation of the Bible, even though they all believe and love/accept Christ as their savior. They don't agree with you on what the Bible says specifically to the small issue of homosexuality, saying that they can't be Christian unless they share your views is just childish.

Also, their church, all the people they've touched and helped, and their children, would disagree with you.

 

[FrankensteinGirls]

there are no "christian homosexual couples"

you could have "homosexual couples"

or "homosexual couples" who wanted to be christians.

but there are no "christian homosexual couples"married or otherwise.

Yes there are, you may not agree with the fact but it is true.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

I can't count the amount of Christians who will point their finger at other Christians and say "But you're not really Christian!" because they have a small difference in interpretation of the Bible,

Scripture is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20).

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

If your interpretation of "homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God" is "homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God," that's not a small difference in interpretation, it's not believing scripture, and those who do not believe scripture do not believe God and are not Christians.

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

even though they all believe and love/accept Christ as their savior.

They neither believe nor love Christ.

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (John 14:23)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)

Homosexuals do not keep His word, and they do not practice righteousness, but rather practice sin.

They don't agree with you on what the Bible says specifically to the small issue of homosexuality, saying that they can't be Christian unless they share your views is just childish.

No, it's the teaching of scripture.

6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6)

Also, their church, all the people they've touched and helped, and their children, would disagree with you.

No doubt. And they also disagree with God, through His word, and if they do not repent they will not be saved.

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Yes there are, you may not agree with the fact but it is true.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

The number of Christian homosexuals is the same as the number of Christians sorcerers, idolaters, or anyone else who practices a lie and does not practice the truth: 0.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (1 John 1:6)

 

[zone]

I can't count the amount of Christians who will point their finger at other Christians and say "But you're not really Christian!" because they have a small difference in interpretation of the Bible, even though they all believe and love/accept Christ as their savior. They don't agree with you on what the Bible says specifically to the small issue of homosexuality, saying that they can't be Christian unless they share your views is just childish.

Also, their church, all the people they've touched and helped, and their children, would disagree with you.

its wonderful when people help people.

that has nothing to do with what God says about sodomy.

and, well, i have to agree with God in order to call myself by His Name you see: to actually be a Christian.

i have to believe what He says about me, and what He says about Himself, and stop doing what he hates.

Since Calvary, man is given Grace (which means time to HAVE A CHANGE OF HEART AND MIND about the things we do. it means to HAVE A CHANGE OF HEART about whether God really means what he says)....so men aren't to be put to death today (not because God approves of sodomy): rather they are to be told The Law's Pronouncement upon them (on all of us), and offered the Gospel (salvation from coming wrath, a free gift).

if one accepts the free gift of Christ's Death in their place, they must STOP practising homosexuality, drunkeness, etc etc.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:27
And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

~ so, as i said:

you can have a homosexual couple
you can have a homosexual couple who gets married.
you can have a homosexual couple who is married who has managed to find a place called a"church".

this does not make them Christian.

 

[LaylieCalmMind]

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

Romans 1:27
And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

Leviticus 19:28
"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves."

Leviticus 25:44
"“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Exodus 35:2
"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."

1 Timothy 2:11-12
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."


But you don't think all those passages still apply today right? Something about the context or the interpretation led you to believe that they were meant for the time and the culture within which they were written... So it is very debatable which instructions in the Bible are meant to be applied today and which are not, the fact that it is debatable makes it kind of foolish to say that people aren't Christians for this...

You think that certain parts of the Bible don't apply today as well, what makes you a Christian but not them? What makes someone who thinks that getting tattoos isn't a sin a Christian, but not a homosexual? Things are never so black and white...

 

[princessbella]

i guess at the end of the day jesus died on the cross for us just as we are, God showed his love for us that while we were still sinners he sent jesus to died on the cross regardless of who you are, whatever sin youve commited whether your homosexul or strait. His grace and mercy and forgivness is there all the time... Im not here to argue whether or not Homosexuality is a sin, but im here to say God loves everone and died on the cross regardless of sexuality..For God so loved the world that he gave his only begiotten son so that whoever beleives in him shall have etermal life...
Who are any of us to say that homosexuality disrediets you from being a christian any more than any other sin big or small..

i dont have all the answers but i am pretty sure theres many gay people who hate God because of what chrisitians have said to them, that stuggle with guilt and suisidal thoughts because they cant reconcile their homosexual feelings with what the church says, turn away from God altogether..

im just saying theres sin everywhere in the world, and jesus was the first person , who let mary magdelene a prostitute wash his feet, accepted her instead of reviling her because he saw her need and her heart...

thanks for listening princess

 

[Meridoc]

I can't count the amount of Christians who will point their finger at other Christians and say "But you're not really Christian!" because they have a small difference in interpretation of the Bible, even though they all believe and love/accept Christ as their savior. They don't agree with you on what the Bible says specifically to the small issue of homosexuality, saying that they can't be Christian unless they share your views is just childish.

Also, their church, all the people they've touched and helped, and their children, would disagree with you.

See that is the problem you are taking the imperfection of people and saying that because there are people who childishly point fingers at people over tiny discrepancies that this is what all christians do and thus you can disagree on anything the bible says to make yourself right. The bible is very clear on this issue, but no more so than people claiming to be christian but living unmarried in a hetero sexual relationship, or people married and cheating on their spouse, or living the life of a drunkard. If you live a life of something the bible CLEARLY states is a sin, you are not of God. That is what the bible says if you read it that is what you will find. Any who claim otherwise have rejected the bible and are using it instead like satan did, to confirm their own beliefs, rather than letting the bible teach them what they should believe.

 

[Meridoc]

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

Good post Meridoc - I do think Pastors can be single, however, the passage says the husband of but one wife - I believe this verse is saying that they should not have more than one wife as opposed to they must be married. Polygamy would still have been somewhat common in New Testament times I think - not entirely sure.

Also, if a person has admitted to struggling with homosexual lust, yet is a professed christian who has and is repenting of his sin I have no problem with him being a pastor, just as if a pastor had struggled with heterosexual lust and repented and is repenting of it. Actively engaging and/or not repenting, however, I would have a problem with.

What you think?

Cheers,

Stuey

See I agree that every christian struggles an as such a pastor will have struggles too, but yes they must be in repentance and working on their struggles rather than letting them be part of their lives or not repenting at all.

BUT I do not agree that a pastor can be single, this is saying both that they should not be a polygamist and that they should be married. Being a pastor or a leader of a church includes a huge weight of responsibility, expectational and spiritual attack. I believe that God put this in here because he knew that any man in leadership would need the support of a Godly woman. Also that there would be times when a woman would come to the pastor for counseling and that a pastor would need his wife's opinion and insight to help and support him. As well that he needs to be seen as an example and above reproach and a single man can be more easily attacked by slander than one who is married and has a loving supportive wife.

 

[Meridoc]

i guess at the end of the day jesus died on the cross for us just as we are, God showed his love for us that while we were still sinners he sent jesus to died on the cross regardless of who you are, whatever sin youve commited whether your homosexul or strait. His grace and mercy and forgivness is there all the time... Im not here to argue whether or not Homosexuality is a sin, but im here to say God loves everone and died on the cross regardless of sexuality..For God so loved the world that he gave his only begiotten son so that whoever beleives in him shall have etermal life...
Who are any of us to say that homosexuality disrediets you from being a christian any more than any other sin big or small..

i dont have all the answers but i am pretty sure theres many gay people who hate God because of what chrisitians have said to them, that stuggle with guilt and suisidal thoughts because they cant reconcile their homosexual feelings with what the church says, turn away from God altogether..

im just saying theres sin everywhere in the world, and jesus was the first person , who let mary magdelene a prostitute wash his feet, accepted her instead of reviling her because he saw her need and her heart...

thanks for listening princess

Amen that is exactly what I was saying "All have sinned", and we must show love to all. But as with any other thing against what the bible teaches if you let it rule in your life than you cannot be of God as you need to have him ruling your life.

 

[Meridoc]

Leviticus 19:28
"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves."

Leviticus 25:44
"“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Exodus 35:2
"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."

1 Timothy 2:11-12
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."


But you don't think all those passages still apply today right? Something about the context or the interpretation led you to believe that they were meant for the time and the culture within which they were written... So it is very debatable which instructions in the Bible are meant to be applied today and which are not, the fact that it is debatable makes it kind of foolish to say that people aren't Christians for this...

You think that certain parts of the Bible don't apply today as well, what makes you a Christian but not them? What makes someone who thinks that getting tattoos isn't a sin a Christian, but not a homosexual? Things are never so black and white...

Yes all those apply, but i agree there are many who will say one thing does apply and then turn around and claim another doesn't. We must accept the bible as a whole or reject it all, because it says about itself that "ALL scripture is God-breathed" not just some.