The Hypocrisy of Exegesis

[Strangelove]

Thank you AOK you are absolutely correct I should have used Eisegesis little late for the eraser though on the thread title I will try to be more accurate in the future

LOLZ!

Hence the confusion.

 

[ada]

After some recent debates in forums lately I have come to a conclusion on Exegesis of the scriptures.

1 Jesus never used Exegesis as a tool for teaching the word. If you can produce 1 piece of evidence to support this please bring it forward.
2Exegesis is the language of the mind and word used to dissect the scriptures into understandable parables or definitions of meaning of phrases found in the bible.
3One has to ask oneself of how many exegesis's do we read today in our modern bibles vs the books of the early church fathers and their original writings.
4the problem with this is if one person makes a mistake in interpretation anywhere in the historical line of the writings of the bible yet through strength of character admits his own thoughts upon the teachings and propounds them as doctrine itself it is not hard to see how denominational fracturing takes place in the centuries to follow.
5When and if the heresies of these doctrines is brought to light however because of their longevity in use with the scriptures they become as indistinguishable among the words and meanings of phrases they were first used to expound on.

Conclusion: Do not use exegesis as a form of understanding the nuances of the bible rather repeated use of the Scripture Alone and a good understanding of the Language in which it is being delivered.

I just saw this. I fully agree!
There is an absolute truth which is the simple message of the Gospel!!!
Modern liberalism view tends to abolish absolute truth cause in its view, truth is relative and is in the view of any beholder, which is definitively antichrist and has nothing to do with true fellowship to Jesus Christ.
If we as true Christians cannot accept the authority of Jesus who gave everything for us, we are lost.
What more could the true God do than to gave his life..

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I just saw this. I fully agree!
There is an absolute truth which is the simple message of the Gospel!!!
Modern liberalism view tends to abolish absolute truth cause in its view, truth is relative and is in the view of any beholder, which is definitively antichrist and has nothing to do with true fellowship to Jesus Christ.
If we as true Christians cannot accept the authority of Jesus who gave everything for us, we are lost.
What more could the true God do than to gave his life..

Ummm... Musky specifically states that Jesus is NOT God. He's also the one who interposed exegesis with eisegesis to make his erroneous thread title. You're agreeing with a mis-stated subject...

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

On the surface it would seem very similar to me but I see your point if you subscribe to the 3 in 1 theory doesn't matter when I pull 40 lines of scripture to prove what I'm saying (all from the NT I noticed) you can see the development of the scriptures from OT to NT very clearly.
Now either the Apostles had it wrong (I doubt it but...) or the Jews are right (I doubt that as well but...)
Or someone screwed up big time in the descendancy of the scriptures (possible)but the words are very clear in their meaning and aptitude and as I said before I am using strictly scripture to prove my point and I feel I have done this very well. No amount of headbutting is going to change my beliefs. That will only be done by proof of scripture laid before me with an accurate exegesis of the scripture brought forth from the bible itself.
In recent days I have prayed many times for this to be shown to me and it has been such and from many different areas and schools of thought so please if you are going to interject please...please bring forth scripture as I feel this is the only way to settle my beliefs either founded or unfounded Thanks

I gave copious scripture and a basic but thorough exegesis in another thread.

 

[Muskokaman]

Ummm... Musky specifically states that Jesus is NOT God. He's also the one who interposed exegesis with eisegesis to make his erroneous thread title. You're agreeing with a mis-stated subject...

Does it make him any less because he is the Son of God Pneuma It is not I who you battle with it is God and his word. He knows in my heart my Questions which I need answers too.
Some have been kind in giving me those answers but you ... well when the poor man Knocks on your door for sustinence and shelter you turn him away and say "I do not wish to know you and would rather mock you.

Pray that the Lord does not do this to you!

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Does it make him any less because he is the Son of God Pneuma It is not I who you battle with it is God and his word. He knows in my heart my Questions which I need answers too.
Some have been kind in giving me those answers but you ... well when the poor man Knocks on your door for sustinence and shelter you turn him away and say "I do not wish to know you and would rather mock you.

Pray that the Lord does not do this to you!

Musker, you never came and "knocked" or asked anything of me. I gave a requested exegesis to someone who asked, and you disagreed. You've never asked for assistance or answers. You've simply contended for your view that you recently found and started studying. And you reject any language scholarship or true exegesis.

You didn't ask for sustinance and shelter. You said you had the food and home of your own belief and argued vehemently for it. And I never said what's in your quotes. A bit dramatic, yes?

The Lord hasn't done that to me. I read and studied and prayed and fasted and praised and worshipped and was obedient until He answered my humble prayers and the cry of my heart. You rejected any fruit of all of that.

 

[Muskokaman]

Musker, you never came and "knocked" or asked anything of me. I gave a requested exegesis to someone who asked, and you disagreed. You've never asked for assistance or answers. You've simply contended for your view that you recently found and started studying. And you reject any language scholarship or true exegesis.

You didn't ask for sustinance and shelter. You said you had the food and home of your own belief and argued vehemently for it. And I never said what's in your quotes. A bit dramatic, yes?

The Lord hasn't done that to me. I read and studied and prayed and fasted and praised and worshipped and was obedient until He answered my humble prayers and the cry of my heart. You rejected any fruit of all of that.

Too late for back paddling

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Too late for back paddling

Back peddling?! Lol. That's not what that was. Enough with the victim mentality.

 

[Muskokaman]

Back peddling?! Lol. That's not what that was. Enough with the victim mentality.

Define your religous doctrine if you please and to what group of Christianity you would closest align yourself with

 

[Muskokaman]

Musker, 1you never came and "knocked" or asked anything of me. I gave a requested exegesis to someone who asked, and you disagreed. You've never asked for assistance or answers. You've simply contended for your view that you recently found and started studying. And 2you reject any language scholarship or true exegesis.

3You didn't ask for sustinance and shelter. You said you had the food and home of your own belief and argued vehemently for it. And I never said what's in your quotes. A bit dramatic, yes?

The Lord hasn't done that to me. I read and studied and prayed and fasted and praised and worshipped and was obedient until He answered my humble prayers and the cry of my heart. 4You rejected any fruit of all of that.

1 yep I did you refused didn't understand the question I guess Perhaps the method was unorthodox to you

2 Nope that's my methodology (Wisdom through debate) What your Exegesis is of any particular doctrine has to be proved if it cannot stand the test then it is Anathema (you haven't proved your point)

3For all your wisdom and yet you put new wine in an old bottle?

4 Perhaps the fruit is from a bitter tree or a branch that should be cut and burnt?

 

[AnandaHya]

did you even read the link I put up Musky?
mmmm. here let me make it easier....

the red is PPS stance, the green is his exegesis of a verse of scripture.

I'm sure he could do the same for the whole Bible but most people get bored after a paragraph.

As background, I was raised as a Trinitarian by loving godly parents and went on to get a Trinitarian college education and then into Trinitarian Pastoral ministry. I believed Trinity, taught Trinity, and declared anything non-Trinity as anathema just like the majority of Trinitarians do. Then I heard the basics of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and received salvation and was scripturally baptized.

After being grounded in the truth of the Word, I've spent the intervening 13 years in deep prayer and study of the Word while fasting many months at a time. My one prevailing prayer has been for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (Ephesians 1:17). I've exhaustively studied Church history, and have read every Ante-Nicene writing extant. I've researched the lives and beliefs of every early church father and every permutation of Christian doctrine, as well as the philosophical and gnostic beliefs of all the influential men of renown.

I say all this simply as an introduction and an overview of the means of my leading of the Spirit. This is not eisegesis of my own view or a personal opinion; it is a thorough and prayerful long-term exegesis that I have very nearly given my physical life for in fasting nigh unto death. That process may or may not mean anything to readers, but I want to clarify that this isn't just some academic intellectual opinion from my own mind.

I affirm the following:
There is One Deity.
The Father is Deity.
The Holy Spirit is Deity.
The Word (Son) is Deity.
These Three are One Deity.
The Father is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Holy Spirit is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Word is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Father is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Holy Spirit is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit nor the Son (Word).
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son (Word).
The Word (Son) is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son proceeded forth and came from God, Sent by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, Sent by the Father and the Son.
(The Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and Son, though Sent by Both.)
Jesus is the Son of God and is Fully Divine, Begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the son of man and is fully human with a rational soul, born of the Virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The Virgin Birth of Jesus was a Supernatural Procreative Act of God, not a Creative Act.
God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ. He is the Lord Jesus Christ.


I'm not any forumulation of Trinitarian, Binitarian, Unitarian, Arian, Sabellian, Tritheist, or Ditheist. I'm not Gnostic, JW, SDA, LDS, or any World Religion of any kind. If I had to describe the truth in theoligcal terms, I'd refer to it as Merismos Monotheism. It is the pure understanding of God as One Divinity, untainted by the doctrines and traditions of men.

There are many understandings involved in knowing the whole truth:
The Rhema-Logos Word
The rhema-logos word
The Constitution of God
The Constitution of Man
The Creation of Adam
The Creation of Eve
The Life in the Blood
The Inward Progression of Sin
The Outward Progression of Sanctification
The Composition of the Tabernacle
The Composition of the Temple
The Temple Not Made with Hands
The Propagation of Human Souls-Spirits
The Virgin Birth
The Transcendence of Jesus
The Transcendence of Man
Uncreated Life vs. Created Life
The Earnest of Our Inheritance
The Redemption of the Purchased Possession
In My Father's House Are Many Mansions
...ad infinitum...

I'll begin with the basics and build a framework for understanding the truth. There is substantial exegesis of Scripture beyond what I initially present, but I'm trying to keep it scaled down for simplicity and general understanding.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14

Logos and Rhema are inseparable, though distinct. They both comprise the spoken word, but are two parts of that spoken word. There can be no Logos without Rhema.

Rhema is the substance content that is the subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that subject matter. Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. Both the Rhema and Logos precede the utterance. To be spoken, the Rhema-Logos is borne forth from the internal depths of one's essence, containing the very substance of that essence in the external speaking forth from the internal. It is borne by the breath (pneuma: spirit).

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed*forth and come from God.

Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself in and to His creation. It is his thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.

That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter of Divine Content. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self.

The Rhema-Logos precedes the act of the utterance. God silently planned and arranged within Himself everything that He was afterwards about to utter through His Word; while He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His own essence to become Word, borne forth by His breath after it was initiated by His will (thelema).

He thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Hismelf upon His breath, which was the Word. His mind and will and emotion thought and chose and felt to utter the Word, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.

God's OWN Rhema-Logos spoke forth Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately become the person (prosopon) of Jesus Christ.

The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible intangible Self to mankind who were made in His image and likeness.

Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but the person (prosopon) of God.

(More coming. Next post imminent.)

 

[Scotth1960]

After some recent debates in forums lately I have come to a conclusion on Exegesis of the scriptures.

1 Jesus never used Exegesis as a tool for teaching the word. If you can produce 1 piece of evidence to support this please bring it forward.
2Exegesis is the language of the mind and word used to dissect the scriptures into understandable parables or definitions of meaning of phrases found in the bible.
3One has to ask oneself of how many exegesis's do we read today in our modern bibles vs the books of the early church fathers and their original writings.
4the problem with this is if one person makes a mistake in interpretation anywhere in the historical line of the writings of the bible yet through strength of character admits his own thoughts upon the teachings and propounds them as doctrine itself it is not hard to see how denominational fracturing takes place in the centuries to follow.
5When and if the heresies of these doctrines is brought to light however because of their longevity in use with the scriptures they become as indistinguishable among the words and meanings of phrases they were first used to expound on.

Conclusion: Do not use exegesis as a form of understanding the nuances of the bible rather repeated use of the Scripture Alone and a good understanding of the Language in which it is being delivered.

Christ didn't do any exegesis of the Scriptures? Is that what Luke 24:27 means? "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (NKJV). Isn't that expounding exegesis?
It isn't reading into Scripture; it's revealing what is in Scripture about Christ, and Christ revealed Himself to His Apostles from reading the Scriptures concerning Himself to them, when He was with them for 40 days after His Resurrection.

 

[Muskokaman]

did you even read the link I put up Musky?
mmmm. here let me make it easier....

the red is PPS stance, the green is his exegesis of a verse of scripture.

I'm sure he could do the same for the whole Bible but most people get bored after a paragraph.

Thanks Ananda for your post at least you made the effort to put what PPS believes in this thread.

I am not jumping from one thread to the next to see someones views of the nature of God when I started my own thread to help me understand about it.

The whole deal with me and PPS is I do not BELIEVE HIM.

Any man who says he fasted for months at a time (see his own words)to me is a liar nothing more I will not debate with him further on any topic regardless of it's content.

I thank you very much for all you have done for me Ananda in regards to help me learn more about God and his Word and all the beautiful scripture you quoted.

I love you very much

Thank you

 

[Abiding]

Just stopping by to say hey......hey! I know too many scriptures that say God is past finding out
or understanding...so im gona be content with what i see and hear from the express image.

But you all look like you could use some refreshments.

 

[Muskokaman]

Just stopping by to say hey......hey! I know too many scriptures that say God is past finding out
or understanding...so im gona be content with what i see and hear from the express image.

But you all look like you could use some refreshments.

Thanks Mike you always know how to cheer a brother up you are just awesome

Please check out the thread I started in Prayer requests I am very sad right now after hearing the story only 2 hours ago and you seem to know just what to do to make a guy feel better Thankyou

P.S. I love your beef jerky

 

[Abiding]

Ok im waiting on that one....im into the pray thing....only God hears my prayers and He never debates me on them

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Any man who says he fasted for months at a time (see his own words)to me is a liar.

Really?! Well... Your disbelief and accusation don't determine reality.

Musky, The Accuser of the Brethren...

 

[AnandaHya]

Really?! Well... Your disbelief and accusation don't determine reality.

Musky, The Accuser of the Brethren...

don't worry PPS I believe you and agree with the model and think the distinctions are important but very hard to put into words that the mind can truly grasp and understand. About the fasting, I know some people who have done the same and I tend to go days without eating when I get involved on a project. My husband used to get upset with me in college because I would forget to eat. he gives me looks and makes me eat lol. he doesn't believe in fasting. now he has the kids trained to make sure I sit down and eat with them. mmmm....

ABIDING YOU LISTENED!!! healthy food. THANKS!!

I just want to THANK GOD FOR FRIENDS!

just got back from having a mom's nit out and it was awesome

my friends are trying to motivate each other into running together,,,mmmmm....

Anyways PPS if you want to do a thread with the study on the word begotten that would be interesting. lol to me at least.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

don't worry PPS I believe you and agree with the model and think the distinctions are important but very hard to put into words that the mind can truly grasp and understand. About the fasting, I know some people who have done the same and I tend to go days without eating when I get involved on a project. My husband used to get upset with me in college because I would forget to eat. he gives me looks and makes me eat lol. he doesn't believe in fasting. now he has the kids trained to make sure I sit down and eat with them. mmmm....

ABIDING YOU LISTENED!!! healthy food. THANKS!!

I just want to THANK GOD FOR FRIENDS!

just got back from having a mom's nit out and it was awesome

my friends are trying to motivate each other into running together,,,mmmmm....

Anyways PPS if you want to do a thread with the study on the word begotten that would be interesting. lol to me at least.

Well... I would be bringing condemnation or judgement upon myself to have lied about something like a term of fasting. Fasting is a private thing. I do it unto God, not men. The only reason I mentioned it (months ago) was to differentiate between an effort of scholarship of the mind versus an intense spiritual search for revelation knowledge.

Moses fasted 40 days on Mt. Sinai without food OR water. Then immediately fasted another 40. Such fasts are obviously supernaturally led and sustained by the Spirit. I've experienced that, and nothing else compares to it in the Christian walk when coupled with intense prayer and study of the Word.

I've considered doing a number of Greek word-studies. It's time-consuming and many simply don't care, especially since I'm not Trinitarian. And there's always those like Musky who ignorantly demand an English-only skim instead of a deep exegesis of the original text.

The best start would be comparing knowledge (gnosis), knowledge (epignosis), and knowledge (oida); contrasting them to each other and wisdom (sophia) and prudence (phronimos). None are each other, along with ginosko and epiginosko.

It'd be nice to know "which" knowledge puffs up and which others have what meaning and function. The same is true for most Greek renderings. There's a richness and specific clarity in the Greek that English doesn't have.

Ironically, this thread OP is directly related to that "puffed up" knowledge.

 

[JohnChingford2007]

Hey Guys

The way God has put the Bible together is amazing. There seems to be answers to virtually every false interpretation. The Bible is full of examples where scripture interprets scripture. Regarding the practice of exegesis. What about Paul's advice to Timothy (and therefore to all Christian teachers) that says "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Tim 2:15 NIV 1984

Correctly handles or rightly dividing the word of truth KJV This instruction is what exegesis is all about!!! Correctly handling Bible exposition by weighing up the contents of the WHOLE Bible.