The Immaculate Conception Error
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A lot of tirades against the RCC and it seems,other than the RCC posters, all agree that IC is not scriptural. However, those Protestants that chide the RCC have not solved their own problem is dealing with man's nature according to the Original Sin theory. If you don't support IC what view do you support since both the RCC and Protestants all accept the Original Sin theory. It seems to me that Protestants work very hard in denying the Incarnation of Christ, mostly unwittingly because they do not understand the fall and Christ's salvation from that fall.
LOL you mean you do not agree with their solution. We accept the scriptural view of original sin, a taint of sin inherited from Adam.
Its not that straightforward. There are a number of views concerning original sin. Where we agree is in recognising that we inherit sin from Adam in some way.
But you are the only one with that problem LOL what does that tell us?
Well, that teaching is a hybrid of Roman's theology. Apparently you, as a Protestant, still have roads that lead to Rome.
Jesus, as the son of man, knew no sin because He never sinned and therefore He was without sin. However, "He was tempted as we are". Temptation comes from within. Temptation comes from our flesh. Paul calls it "the law of sin in my members".
But that's not the important point. What's important is Christ, as God, assumed our humanity under the curse and thereby was made "the son of man".
Why? Because God's own law demands the death of the sinner: "the soul that sins it must die." Christ's death instead of our death does not answer God's law - rather it mocks it.
Legally Christ had to fulfill His Father's law. Hence our old life from Adam was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6/7:4) because "when One died, all died" in Him. (2 Cor 5:14)
This is the everlasting gospel to be preached to the whole world, not the one Roman teaches for it is "another gospel", which is really no gospel at all.
Jesus, as the son of man, knew no sin because He never sinned and therefore He was without sin. However, "He was tempted as we are". Temptation comes from within. Temptation comes from our flesh. Paul calls it "the law of sin in my members".
But that's not the important point. What's important is Christ, as God, assumed our humanity under the curse and thereby was made "the son of man".
Why? Because God's own law demands the death of the sinner: "the soul that sins it must die." Christ's death instead of our death does not answer God's law - rather it mocks it.
Legally Christ had to fulfill His Father's law. Hence our old life from Adam was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6/7:4) because "when One died, all died" in Him. (2 Cor 5:14)
This is the everlasting gospel to be preached to the whole world, not the one Roman teaches for it is "another gospel", which is really no gospel at all.
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Omnipotent: having complete or unlimited power
God is able to bring to pass everything that He chooses. He has no external limitations.
Genesis 18:14
14 Is anything too hard for the LORD?
Mary never needed to be without sin because God has unlimited Power!
God did keep Jesus free from sin even though Mary was a sinner. God HAS the power to do anything and keeping Jesus free from Sin is within His Power. God did not need the help of a sinner.
Mary had no "special" power or ability to keep Jesus free from sin like the Catholics teach.
This is just one example of Catholicism being from Satan.
You can believe all you want about what Catholicism says about the Powers of Mary, but until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle you will never enter into Heaven with us True Christians.
God is able to bring to pass everything that He chooses. He has no external limitations.
Genesis 18:14
14 Is anything too hard for the LORD?
Mary never needed to be without sin because God has unlimited Power!
God did keep Jesus free from sin even though Mary was a sinner. God HAS the power to do anything and keeping Jesus free from Sin is within His Power. God did not need the help of a sinner.
Mary had no "special" power or ability to keep Jesus free from sin like the Catholics teach.
This is just one example of Catholicism being from Satan.
You can believe all you want about what Catholicism says about the Powers of Mary, but until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle you will never enter into Heaven with us True Christians.
KenAllen,
Whether she did or did not has no bearing on Christ's birth. Every human being is born innocent or immaculate.
But that would change the Incarnation of Christ in that He would have born a different nature than what we possess. Thus by that Incarnation He would not be able to heal nor to raise that nature to life. He would have healed and gave life to a nature that none of us possess.
except any human birth is free from sin. The Catholics are at least honest in attempting to solve the Original Sin problem their theology accepts. On the other hand protestants don't have a single solution, but many all attempting to do the same thing as IC. If you are going to keep the Original Sin theory as your basis for the fall, then why not accept IC as well?
before you castigate them, you aught to solve your own problem first, otherwise you are in the same boat. Kinda criticising yourself.
Whether she did or did not has no bearing on Christ's birth. Every human being is born innocent or immaculate.
But that would change the Incarnation of Christ in that He would have born a different nature than what we possess. Thus by that Incarnation He would not be able to heal nor to raise that nature to life. He would have healed and gave life to a nature that none of us possess.
except any human birth is free from sin. The Catholics are at least honest in attempting to solve the Original Sin problem their theology accepts. On the other hand protestants don't have a single solution, but many all attempting to do the same thing as IC. If you are going to keep the Original Sin theory as your basis for the fall, then why not accept IC as well?
before you castigate them, you aught to solve your own problem first, otherwise you are in the same boat. Kinda criticising yourself.
Explain how we are born without sin as immaculate?
Psalm 51:5-6 NKJV
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
To state that every person is born immaculately is not scriptural. If you say that until we are able to make the decision to die to self later in life, then that makes more sense, as children do not have the ability to see this and make a conscious decision to turn from a life of sin. No, even an innocent child is not sinless. I believe the Jewish people have a concept called the age of accountability, albeit I'm not sure it's scriptural.
When we are born again, we are given the right to be called children of God. Until then we are not children of God but another.
Psalm 51:5-6 NKJV
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
To state that every person is born immaculately is not scriptural. If you say that until we are able to make the decision to die to self later in life, then that makes more sense, as children do not have the ability to see this and make a conscious decision to turn from a life of sin. No, even an innocent child is not sinless. I believe the Jewish people have a concept called the age of accountability, albeit I'm not sure it's scriptural.
When we are born again, we are given the right to be called children of God. Until then we are not children of God but another.
Unfortunately, this citation does not say man is born a sinner. What is does say is that we are born in a sinful world, with sinful parents, but it does NOT say we are born WITH sin.
Theologically it is impossible to be born with sin. Unless you can point out what sin a fetus committed in the womb? Sin is an act not a state of being.
There is no text in scripture that says man is born with sin. It also states that no man will ever bear the sins of another. Yet, because of the false theory of Original Sin and its variations man twists scripture to make it say what they need it to say.
Which has nothing to do with the topic.
Maybe you should try to explain just how sin can be a hereditary concept when it is a free choice of an act of man.
Theologically it is impossible to be born with sin. Unless you can point out what sin a fetus committed in the womb? Sin is an act not a state of being.
There is no text in scripture that says man is born with sin. It also states that no man will ever bear the sins of another. Yet, because of the false theory of Original Sin and its variations man twists scripture to make it say what they need it to say.
Which has nothing to do with the topic.
Maybe you should try to explain just how sin can be a hereditary concept when it is a free choice of an act of man.
then to be consistant you need to deny the Incarnation of Christ. So, you have a Christ that cannot save us from death and sin because He assumed a totally different human nature than we possess. Or the other option is that Christ was born a sinner with a sin nature. And where is that found in scripture?
To say the least, your theology is not consistent.
To say the least, your theology is not consistent.
That makes no good spiritual sense. Are you in denial of the incarnate Jesus? Only Jesus is able to stand in our stead on the cross. The righteous for the unrighteous, the divine exchange.
Jesus was born fully human with a human nature that was perfect.
My theology is consistent with the word. I have no idea where yours comes from.
Hebrews 2:14-18
Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. [SUP]16 [/SUP]We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.
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Jesus was born fully human with a human nature that was perfect.
My theology is consistent with the word. I have no idea where yours comes from.
Hebrews 2:14-18
Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. [SUP]16 [/SUP]We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.
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Jesus became a human being like any one of us, but He had no sin nature. That is necessary so that as our substitute for punishment, we can be redeemed. That is how it is in God's economy: the perfect, unblemished one takes on the imperfect and spoiled by sin, as a divine exchange...all because of the love and mercy of the Father.
That you think God's redemption plan is meaningless just shows how far you have yet to come to grasp the simple gospel message. Keep trying. It is very easy.
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Then he was NOT like us at all. What nature did He raise from the dead? It could not be ours?
Obviously you have no understanding of the meaning of the Incarnation. You have man having one nature, Christ who is supposed by be like us in all things, except did not sin, has a different nature than man. Explain just how Christ saved us when He is not like us at all. You have two entirely different natures. Very inconsistent. You still are espousing a meaningless Incarnation, a meaningless redemption since one is not like the other.
Try again.
Obviously you have no understanding of the meaning of the Incarnation. You have man having one nature, Christ who is supposed by be like us in all things, except did not sin, has a different nature than man. Explain just how Christ saved us when He is not like us at all. You have two entirely different natures. Very inconsistent. You still are espousing a meaningless Incarnation, a meaningless redemption since one is not like the other.
Try again.
1] Jesus is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when He was not God.
2] At the incarnation, God the Father united Christ's Deity to our corporate fallen life in the womb of Mary.
3] That life from Mary is called "the son of man".
As a son of mankind Jesus was made "of the seed of David according to the flesh". That means that Jesus had to contend with our nature, only in His case He never sinned.
I find that many of you Protestants are just as confused as the Catholics when it comes to the gospel. Why?