The imputed righteousness of Christ Impugned

[Sully]

Ever actually tried to live by grace? If your looking for the ultimate challenge, try it. You think those who rely on faith alone in Jesus alone are soft sell outs? Try living one week by faith alone in Christ alone. It's taken me decades to crawl. I don't think the average "workman" could hang without his petty hay and stubble efforts. One week...

 

[willybob]

Philippians 2-12,13

It’s the influencing power of grace combined with man’s faith, for we are workers together with God.

The principles of man working together with God are plastered all over the text from Genesis to Revelation.

Here is an excellent example given by Paul in the letter to the Philippians.

2-12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, workout you own salvation with fear and trembling (fear of God; in that it’s a fearful thing to fall in the judgement hands of the living God, for the wrath of God remains on the children of disobedience)

13 “for it is Him that worketh (energeo) in you both to will and to do His good pleasure”

These two verses are in harmony with the working dynamics of grace and faith found in Eph. 2-8..Man strives to enter working out his part by a faithfulness to God that works by love and does no ill to His neighbor. And God energizes that faith with the working dynamic of grace. The conduit is faith and the energizing power (“energeo” in the Greek) that is delivered through the conduit is the power of God’s grace, the Spirit of grace. (empowerment of the Spirit to live godly) Titus 2-12,13,14. It’s always saved by His grace coupled with our faith. And remember no one can save themselves for only God can forgive past sins through the blood atonement of Christ. Likewise God can’t just save anyone without their consent. Man must repent and come clean with Him first in that they might be saved by His mercy. It’s called conditional covenant of redemption theology, not Penal Substitution theology, the two are as different as night and day. Again man is a worker together with God to bring about a fellowship of love that cannot be achieved by any other means…. It’s the very essence of COVENANT, for man MUST enter into a covenant relationship with God in order to be saved..Who are those that are being saved? Those that obey God and hold fast to His conditional requirements of salvation...The false pundits would have you believe its an unconditional covenant. Yes, their version is the reformatted Penal Substitution. What they really mean is that Jesus did it all for you and you do nothing concerning ones salvation. This is why they fail to understand what Jesus meant when He said “it is finished”..Jesus meant the way of salvation through the New Covenant had now been established, and not that He did everything/obeyed for you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Ever actually tried to live by grace? If your looking for the ultimate challenge, try it. You think those who rely on faith alone in Jesus alone are soft sell outs? Try living one week by faith alone in Christ alone. It's taken me decades to crawl. I don't think the average "workman" could hang without his petty hat and stubble efforts. One week...

You misunderstand and misrepresent Sola Fide. The doctrine doesn't make a false dichotomy between grace and faith and cause the one who believes the biblical doctrine to make a choice between the two.

"The just shall live by faith". Habakkuk 2:4; Hebrews 10:38; Romans 1:17.

 

[Sully]

You misunderstand and misrepresent Sola Fide. The doctrine doesn't make a false dichotomy between grace and faith and cause the one who believes the biblical doctrine to make a choice between the two.

"The just shall live by faith". Habakkuk 2:4; Hebrews 10:38; Romans 1:17.

It doesn't negate the salvation method either

 

[Locutus]

Ever actually tried to live by grace? If your looking for the ultimate challenge, try it. You think those who rely on faith alone in Jesus alone are soft sell outs? Try living one week by faith alone in Christ alone. It's taken me decades to crawl. I don't think the average "workman" could hang without his petty hay and stubble efforts. One week...

If I read this right it deserves a...

 

[preacher4truth]

It doesn't negate the salvation method either

You're still making no sense. Try again? Elaborate?

 

[Sully]

You're still making no sense. Try again? Elaborate?

The person of focus on this thread represents what I'm describing. He's working hard and can post about nothing else. Working that keyboard trying to negate grace and the finished work.

 

[PeterJens]

How do you read this Peter:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The word impute here is translated as credited.
These are the verses talking about faith or the relationship with God is taken as our
source of righteousness, not our behaviour. Our behaviour still needs to be righteous
but behaviour without faith is dead.

 

[willybob]

Abraham "DID THE WORKS OF FAITH" Hebrews 11-8, 17, this is what was reckoned/imputed to his account as righteousness...

 

[Locutus]

And how do you figure this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[PeterJens]

And how do you figure this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Faith is counted as righteousness, the relationship is everything.

 

[zone]

And how do you figure this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

end of story.

 

[dcontroversal]

end of story.

Not according to spongebob.....

 

[preacher4truth]

The person of focus on this thread represents what I'm describing. He's working hard and can post about nothing else. Working that keyboard trying to negate grace and the finished work.

I see. That is sad bro.

 

[Utah]

I said it.
Imputed righteousness is not biblical, it is a reformation doctrine invented so that
believers could be sinners and still be regard as righteous and forgiven.

It is often taken to be Abrahams faith being reconned as righteousness.
When I learnt imputed righteousness of Christ is an invented theological term,
it settled for me another issue, that our faith is reconned as righteousness not our walk.

So you can walk righteously but that is not enough, because it is communion with the
Lord that is the life and the truth.

Now through Jesus's righteousness sacrificed on the cross we gain forgiveness of past
sins, washed clean and purified, so that we can walk blamelessly before the King.

The problem is without imputed righteousness surely one sin and we have lost salvation.
But if salvation or righteousness is actually founded on faith, then this is the grace covering
while we resolve our sinful issues through repentance and confession. Now if we do not
resolve them over time, our faith will wane and finally fail and we will fall away.

Now for most this is so bad and terrible, the idea of falling away it is unbelief to even say it
is possible, so you definately must not know Christ.

So this is a different faith structure within the same theology, but a different take on almost
everything, even involving reinterpreting what repentance actually is.

So there you have it, the alternative view point,

Works based perfectionism ^^^^

IOW -- doomed!

 

[dcontroversal]

Works based perfectionism ^^^^

IOW -- doomed!

You got that right bro....to deny the imputed righteousness of Christ is to deny Christ and his work = lost!

 

[PeterJens]

The funny thing is this is just a matter of interpretation, because the verses
could mean through Christ we have access to righteousness, ie the ability to
be actually righteous, or to be imputed righteousness from Christ to us.

Problem is imputed righteousness is just fake, and has never been part of
Gods revelation. Gods revelation is David, faithful following, establishing
great victory and glory to God, yet falls for Bathsheba, gets husband eliminated,
and then repents over it all. It has never been about a spotless walk, but a
real walk with all the weaknesses and issues, but with Christ.

The disciples abandoned Jesus, yet they still came back and the Lord used
them. Friendships, marriage has its moments yet it stays strong.
The temple was always about reconciliation after a problem, yet the only
walk people want is perfect from day one, so only Christs imputed righteousness
works, rather than our child like steps that the Father redeemed us to make.

When a child is entrusted to you as a parent, does someone come up and say,
oh no not you, or see how it goes and things develop, because the relationship
literally changes you, and you become a parent, get pulled in ways you never
thought possible, and at the end, you love like never before.

 

[Utah]

That's right; Jesus is our righteous example to follow after, not sin..Work in that context is speaking of religious works not works of faith from an obedient heart (bible 101) You must read and weigh all scripture rightly dividing the truth, rather than a couple snippets here and there (again, bible 101)

This ^^^^ is abysmally heartbreaking. Pharisaic to the core.

 

[PeterJens]

Works based perfectionism ^^^^

IOW -- doomed!

Well guys thanks for the show.
This is where the fruit makes a difference.

The imputed version puts the believer with no responsibility or blow back
from their behaviour. Some say oh loss of rewards etc.

But the whole point has always been about relationship and not destroying
or hurting that which is life, yet this theology say you do not care a fig about
the relationship, because nothing is on the line. Though God time and again
says behaviour matters, it is one of the foundations of blessing or cursing
and judgement, nope everything is different, we got the special Jesus pass.

I remember the story of the two prophets. The first was told do not eat anything
with anyone, but go give my message and leave. The second prophet went up to
the first and said God has changed His mind and says it is ok to eat with me.

So he did, and then God executed judgement, and sent a lion who attacked and
killed the prophet who had disobeyed Gods command.

God does not change His limits or ways, He fulfills them which is very different.
It is up to the believer to decide, and God is testing you worthiness and standing
before Him. Jesus was tested and so are we. Know your God or terrible things
will befall you.

 

[Utah]

The New covenant is conditional . . . God forbid such foolishness

God forbid your faith-lacking foolishness.
Mark 10:14, Luke 12:32, John 3:16-17, Romans 10:9-10