The King James Bible

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
The replies given are inadequate because they present definition choices without any analysis of why a particular choice should be made.
All words offer choices but all choices aren't correct.

In Philipians 2 the the phrase "to be" denotes that the notion of "equality with God" is future.

The niv doesn't use "to be" to refer to equality with God, but rather, uses "to be" to refer to a possible advantage.

Context defines proper word choice.

Simply listing all possible uses of a word doesn't define the proper word to use.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
It would help me if someone would provide the actual whole sentence as found in the niv rather than only a disconnected verse, since I have no niv.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
The replies given are inadequate because they present definition choices without any analysis of why a particular choice should be made.
All words offer choices but all choices aren't correct.

In Philipians 2 the the phrase "to be" denotes that the notion of "equality with God" is future.

The niv doesn't use "to be" to refer to equality with God, but rather, uses "to be" to refer to a possible advantage.

Context defines proper word choice.

Simply listing all possible uses of a word doesn't define the proper word to use.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
Philipians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you,
which was also in Christ Jesus:
who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
but made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:
and being found in fashion as a man,
he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It would help me if someone would provide the actual whole sentence as found in the niv rather than only a disconnected verse, since I have no niv.
Go to biblegateway.
 

Musicus

Senior Member
Oct 26, 2017
314
39
28
The replies given are inadequate because they present definition choices without any analysis of why a particular choice should be made.
All words offer choices but all choices aren't correct.

In Philipians 2 the the phrase "to be" denotes that the notion of "equality with God" is future.

The niv doesn't use "to be" to refer to equality with God, but rather, uses "to be" to refer to a possible advantage.

Context defines proper word choice.

Simply listing all possible uses of a word doesn't define the proper word to use.
It would help me if someone would provide the actual whole sentence as found in the niv rather than only a disconnected verse, since I have no niv.
5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[SUP]a[/SUP] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[SUP]b[/SUP] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Footnotes:
a 6 Or in the form of
b 7 Or the form



But ya know what? This is basic grammer. You're grasping at straws. Grammer has rules. You can't make up your own and expect others to communicate well with you. What you state regarding 'to be' above doesn't follow the rules. The NIV follows today's grammar rules. The KJV follows 16th century grammar rules.

(BTW if you use the phrase 'in other words' when explaining anything in the KJV you would nullify your argument. You know that, right?)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
You would do well not to make up your own definitions for important words. Given the definition below, your fear-mongering is baseless. Here is how a real dictionary (Oxford) defines "become":

verb (became, becomes, becoming)1 no object, with complement Begin to be.
‘she became angry and sulked all day’

change gradually, transmute, turn, go

  • 1.1 Grow to be; develop into. ‘the child will become an adult’

come to be
, get to be, turn out to be, grow, get, turn


  • 1.2 (of a person) qualify or be accepted as. ‘she wanted to become a doctor’

be appointed as
, be assigned as, be nominated, be elected as, be made


  • 1.3 become of (in questions) happen to. ‘what would become of her now?’
Joseppi said:
The replies given are inadequate because they present definition choices without any analysis of why a particular choice should be made.
All words offer choices but all choices aren't correct. ...

Context defines proper word choice.

Simply listing all possible uses of a word doesn't define the proper word to use.
What a completely inadequate dodge. NONE of the definitions given for "become" matched your invented definition! ANY of them would work. While context does indeed help determine word choice, it doesn't allow the invention of a meaning to suit your agenda! It's time to admit you have made a mistake.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
It would help me if someone would provide the actual whole sentence as found in the niv rather than only a disconnected verse, since I have no niv.
Then how CAN you be sure it's the work of the devil? ;)


If you go to Bible Gateway as has been suggested you can look at different versions parallel to each other like this:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philipians 2&version=NIV;KJV


Philipians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you,
which was also in Christ Jesus:
who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
but made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:
and being found in fashion as a man,
he humbled himself,
and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross.
NIV Philipians 2

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


[a] Or in the form of Or the form


 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
The replies given are inadequate
LOL!!! You've been found out but cannot accept refutation. Simply disregarding the answers given you is not a refutation, it just shows you have no answers.

Simply listing all possible uses of a word doesn't define the proper word to use.
Unless you are defending the King Jimmy Bibel then it's a valid argument to use. :D
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
1) Your own insults of others on here, calling the Reformed lost, bearing false witness, slandering those who employ MV's, slandering of the scholars behind them is all well noted, not only here on earth, but in the presence of God. You also use the Reformed in a positive sense to promote your out of context erroneous teachings when needed, but then call them lost when you need them for something else. Basically, it is all about you being right, no matter your sanctimonious double standards used to achieve it. Guess what? We're way smarter than you give us credit, and we see through this tactic of yours.

2) Your standards are an unjust balance, which is a lack of integrity on your part. Before anyone believes you about honoring King James, you owe the same to other scholars who have worked on the more accurate modern versions we have today. Your double standard won't allow this type of honor to take place due to your KJVO cultic mindset.

3) You follow men, namely King James, Erasmus and other KJVO proponents. You also protect them from due criticism and all the while slander many godly men and scholars of today and recent years. Such behavior is called hypocrisy.

4) I do see, though you slander me and make a false accusation, that God does use even the profane to accomplish his purposes. That said, however, I do not worship the men behind a bible version, and do not worship any version of Scripture, but the God of Scripture. KJVO's, such as yourself in fact do worship a version.

5) I pray someday God will awaken you from your blindness to truth and hatred of others.
I agree with most of what you said.

Judging from the instructions given to the translators, I don't think that James 1st was KJVO himself.

KING JAMES’ INSTRUCTIONS TO THE TRANSLATORS

(Sources: Lewis’ History of the English Bible and The Men Behind the KJV by Gustavus S. Paine).
The following set of “rules” had been prepared on behalf of church and state by Richard Bancroft, Bishop of London and high-church Anglican. “For the better ordering of the proceedings of the translators, his Majesty recommended the following rules to them, to be very carefully observed:--



“1. The ordinary Bible, read in the church, commonly called the Bishop’s Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.

This instruction makes clear that King James desired only a minor revision of the Bishop's Bible. This leaves no room for divine inspiration.



“2. The names of the prophets and the holy writers, with the other names in the text, to be retained, as near as may be, according as they are vulgarly used.

Vulgarly here means in common speech.



“3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c.



“4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which has been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place, and the analogy of the faith.

This instruction restricts the translators from using the most appropriate definition of a word over the most common usage. That leaves little or no room for inspiration.



“5. The division of the chapters to be altered, either not at all, or as little as may be, if necessity so require.



“6. No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words, which cannot, without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the text.



“7. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down, as shall serve for the fit references of one scripture to another.



“8. Every particular man of each company to take the same chapter of chapters; and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinks good, all to meet together, to confer what they have done, and agree for their part what shall stand.



“9. As any one company hath dispatched any one book in this manner, they shall send it to the rest to be considered of seriously and judiciously: for his Majesty is very careful in this point.



“10. If any company, upon the review of the book so sent, shall doubt or differ upon any places, and therewithal to send their reasons; to which if they consent not, the difference to be compounded at the general meeting, which is to be the chief persons of each company, at the end of the work.



“11. When any place of special obscurity is doubted of, letters to be directly by authority to send to any learned in the land for his judgment in such a place.



“12. Letters to be sent from every bishop to the rest of the clergy, admonishing them of this translation in hand, and to move and charge as many as being skillful in the tongues, have taken pains in that kind, to send their particular observations to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, according as it was directed before the king’s letter to the archbishop.



“13. The directors in each company to be deans of Westminster and Chester, and the king’s professors in Hebrew and Greek in the two universities.



“14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the text than the Bishop’s Bible, viz. Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Wilchurch’s,* Geneva.”


This instruction shows that James acknowledged all the major translations extant in his time as valid translations. So he was NOT KJVO (IMO).



*By “Wilchurch” is meant the Great Bible, which was printed by Edward Wilchurch, one of King Henry VIII’s printers.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
I agree with most of what you said.

Judging from the instructions given to the translators, I don't think that James 1st was KJVO himself.

KING JAMES’ INSTRUCTIONS TO THE TRANSLATORS

(Sources: Lewis’ History of the English Bible and The Men Behind the KJV by Gustavus S. Paine).
The following set of “rules” had been prepared on behalf of church and state by Richard Bancroft, Bishop of London and high-church Anglican. “For the better ordering of the proceedings of the translators, his Majesty recommended the following rules to them, to be very carefully observed:--



“1. The ordinary Bible, read in the church, commonly called the Bishop’s Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.

This instruction makes clear that King James desired only a minor revision of the Bishop's Bible. This leaves no room for divine inspiration.



“2. The names of the prophets and the holy writers, with the other names in the text, to be retained, as near as may be, according as they are vulgarly used.

Vulgarly here means in common speech.



“3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c.



“4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which has been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place, and the analogy of the faith.

This instruction restricts the translators from using the most appropriate definition of a word over the most common usage. That leaves little or no room for inspiration.



“5. The division of the chapters to be altered, either not at all, or as little as may be, if necessity so require.



“6. No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words, which cannot, without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the text.



“7. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down, as shall serve for the fit references of one scripture to another.



“8. Every particular man of each company to take the same chapter of chapters; and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinks good, all to meet together, to confer what they have done, and agree for their part what shall stand.



“9. As any one company hath dispatched any one book in this manner, they shall send it to the rest to be considered of seriously and judiciously: for his Majesty is very careful in this point.



“10. If any company, upon the review of the book so sent, shall doubt or differ upon any places, and therewithal to send their reasons; to which if they consent not, the difference to be compounded at the general meeting, which is to be the chief persons of each company, at the end of the work.



“11. When any place of special obscurity is doubted of, letters to be directly by authority to send to any learned in the land for his judgment in such a place.



“12. Letters to be sent from every bishop to the rest of the clergy, admonishing them of this translation in hand, and to move and charge as many as being skillful in the tongues, have taken pains in that kind, to send their particular observations to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, according as it was directed before the king’s letter to the archbishop.



“13. The directors in each company to be deans of Westminster and Chester, and the king’s professors in Hebrew and Greek in the two universities.



“14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the text than the Bishop’s Bible, viz. Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Wilchurch’s,* Geneva.”


This instruction shows that James acknowledged all the major translations extant in his time as valid translations. So he was NOT KJVO (IMO).



*By “Wilchurch” is meant the Great Bible, which was printed by Edward Wilchurch, one of King Henry VIII’s printers.
NOW THAT IS A GOOD POST! YOU GET SOME REP FOR THAT!
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
I agree with most of what you said.

Judging from the instructions given to the translators, I don't think that James 1st was KJVO himself.
Lol, well, I see where I was unclear when I made the statement "and other KJVO proponents." My apologies, it appeared I was saying King James and Erasmus were KJVO (which would be absurd). What I meant is that the person to whom I was responding follows KJ, Erasmus and KJVO proponents.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
113
Why are y'all still talking about kjv to Joseppi when the obvious serious issue is denying Christs deity?
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Why are y'all still talking about kjv to Joseppi when the obvious serious issue is denying Christs deity?
There are several on this site who do this. Some say they believe Christ was divine/had a divine nature, and the unlearned think they are admitting the deity of Christ. False teachers bank on the ignorance of the masses.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Are you joking? ANYONE reading King James English MUST translate it. You CAN'T possibly understand it all without translating it yourself. No one in this day and age automatically understands what being 'girt about the paps with a golden girdle' means without looking it up or asking someone. You MUST translate it. Or you won't understand.

You can read a text that has been translated directly from the original languages to modern English by scholars. Or you can read one that is translated at a time when the language was very different and translate it again for yourself.

I'm not afraid of Bible study, I love it. I started studying more than 30 years ago. I didn't do it with King James English because it isn't necessary.
Not very long ago schools in English speaking countries actually taught using Shakespeare and Milton; so Elizabethan English was not very difficult. On the other hand in present day usage a pap smear admittedly doesn't concern itself with the nipples.
You made a very valid point. I'm just lamenting the decline in 'modern' education.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
While I do reference other translations, there really is something special about the KJV. It seems to radiate power and authority.

Call me crazy...:rolleyes:
It is the primary translation I use. It is unarguably the most beautiful and most literary translation available. I still can't justify a claim of special inspiration.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
So, readers do you think that the niv is God's written word, or is it a newly invented version of the devil?

As I said, compare, and the truth becomes evident.

Jesus didn't say that intellect is the problem. He said, that blindness is the problem. Intellect can't cover up a lie. Satan can't do which is why he hides in darkness to make himself appear to be brightEr than he actually is.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, he is not his own Father. The Father is above the Son.

And nature is a elemental thing applicable to beasts not to God. Beasts obey their instincts, whereas, God is free.
The NIV, NASB, RSV, ESV, Amplified, Holman, and many others are all God's written word to the same extent that the KJV is.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Jesus is God's only begotten Son.
The Son is not equal in authority to his Father.

Your arguing with a strawman, not me.
I know who Jesus of Nazareth is, he is Word of God made flesh.
And I know God is the Spirit.
The scripture can't be broken. There is a God head.
Jesus worships God.

Its the niv that claims that Jesus was equal to God his Father. And yet, bound by his nature, such that, the niv claims Jesus didn't have the nature of a servant until he took on the nature of a servant when he became a man.
The niv is nutty fruitcake nonsense. It isn't God's holy bible at all.

Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God, is one Lord.

Not One God.

God isn't a math problem.
Jesus submitted his own will to God, his Father, in the garden. JJesus did not submit himself to himself but to his Father, whom Jesus obeyed when he xra k the cup instead of letting it pass.

The niv is false and blasphemes Jesus Christ. In the name of promoting casual readership. That's how it makes money by being comfy and nice to readers lacking rigor in their studies.
John 16:13-15
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
KJV

All things that the Father hath are mine: Even His authority.