The King James Only Debate

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KJV1611

KJV1611

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Nov 23, 2013
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#641
KJV says Jesus was in heaven while still on earth, NASB says nothing on the matter. In this EXTREMELY important passage for understanding what the "kingdom of heaven" is, which translation is right?

John 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
 
notuptome

notuptome

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#642
May 17, 2013
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#642
John146 said:
It's all about trustworthiness. If the book you get the gospel out of is not trustworthy to begin with, how can you trust the gospel to be true?
Click to expand...
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. You can trust the Holy Spirit to reveal in the bible without respect to translation version. You see the authority is with God and not man.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

This is accomplished only by the determinate will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
trofimus

trofimus

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#643
KJV1611 said:
KJV says Jesus was in heaven while still on earth, NASB says nothing on the matter. In this EXTREMELY important passage for understanding what the "kingdom of heaven" is, which translation is right?

John 3:13King James Version (KJV)

[FONT=&]13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.[/FONT]

John 3:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[FONT=&]13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.[/FONT]
Click to expand...
Again, the question is not "which translations is better for my theological view", but "what was originally in the text".

KJV reader will be used to trinitarian formula in 1J 5:7, thats why he will say "it is extremelly important verse".

The Luther Bible has never had it, so German Christian will not have any problem with or without it.

All depends on what we are used to.
 
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hornetguy

hornetguy

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#644
Jan 18, 2016
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#644
KJV1611 said:
KJV says Jesus was in heaven while still on earth, NASB says nothing on the matter. In this EXTREMELY important passage for understanding what the "kingdom of heaven" is, which translation is right?

John 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Click to expand...
What?? I don't see that at all, in that passage. I see both versions saying the same thing... that no human has gone up to heaven... the only one that has is Jesus, who first came DOWN from heaven. The only thing missing from the NASB is the statement that Jesus is now back in heaven. But that is hardly a doctrinal change.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#645
Nov 23, 2013
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#645
trofimus said:
Again, the question is not "which translations is better for my theological view", but "what was originally in the text".

KJV reader will be used to trinitarian formula in 1J 5:7, thats why he will say "it is extremelly important verse".

The Luther Bible has never had it, so German Christian will not have any problem with or without it.

All depends on what we are used to.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with "theological trinitarian views", I want to know what the kingdom of heaven is when I read about it in the bible.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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#646
Nov 23, 2013
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#646
hornetguy said:
What?? I don't see that at all, in that passage. I see both versions saying the same thing... that no human has gone up to heaven... the only one that has is Jesus, who first came DOWN from heaven. The only thing missing from the NASB is the statement that Jesus is now back in heaven. But that is hardly a doctrinal change.
Click to expand...
When Jesus said "the son of man which is in heaven", he is speaking present tense while he was still on earth.
 
J

John146

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#647
Jan 13, 2016
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notuptome said:
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. You can trust the Holy Spirit to reveal in the bible without respect to translation version. You see the authority is with God and not man.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

This is accomplished only by the determinate will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Or, if you had the word of truth, then the Holy Spirit could guide you to the understanding of all truth instead of telling you which parts of the Bible are false and which ones are true.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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#648
Aug 17, 2015
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#648
KJV1611 said:
This has nothing to do with "theological trinitarian views", I want to know what the kingdom of heaven is when I read about it in the bible.
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with the trinitarian view, but it has all to do with the same principle. We must look for what the Bible really said, not to choose what is should say because we have some view.

If the shorter reading of your example is the original one, you can do nothing.

By tradition, some minor christian views developed based on nonoriginal Bible texts. Which is a bad thing. You should have more verses for something important, not just one.

Example - the oldest manuscript of Revelation has 616 instead of 666. The best manuscript of Revelation has also 616 instead of 666.

Imagine how many tuns of "Christian" apocalyptic literature would go to trash because of it. But is it a reason to defend 666? NO.
 
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KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#649
Nov 23, 2013
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#649
trofimus said:
It has nothing to do with the trinitarian view, but it has all to do with the same principle. We must look for what the Bible really said, not to choose what is should say because we have some view.

If the shorter reading of your example is the original one, you can do nothing.
Click to expand...
I'm not getting into the original language arguments any more... I'm not concerned with what may have been or may not have been in the "originals", this will not help me understand the kingdom of heaven.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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#650
Aug 17, 2015
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#650
KJV1611 said:
I'm not getting into the original language arguments any more... I'm not concerned with what may have been or may not have been in the "originals", this will not help me understand the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...
If your understanding of the kingdom of heaven is dependent on one specific verse (i.e. few words) only, it is almost certainly wrong.
 
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KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#651
Nov 23, 2013
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#651
trofimus said:
If your understanding of heaven is dependent on one specific verse (i.e. few words) only, it is almost certainly wrong.
Click to expand...
My understanding of the kingdom of heaven comes from ALL verses about the kingdom of heaven, not just one. All of them are needed to understand it, especially the one that we're talking about right now.

I don't spend my time trying to make sure this or that was translated right. I spend my time reading the word and believing it. You can't learn anything spending your time studying words trying to find if it's the "right" word.
 
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trofimus

trofimus

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#652
Aug 17, 2015
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#652
KJV1611 said:
My understanding of the kingdom of heaven comes from ALL verses about the kingdom of heaven, not just one. All of them are needed to understand it, especially the one that we're talking about right now.

I don't spend my time trying to make sure this or that was translated right. I spend my time reading the word and believing it. You can't learn anything spending your time studying words trying to find if it's the "right" word.
Click to expand...
I agree that I cant just study if the word should be there, I need a time to really read the meaning of the Bible.

But you must realize that what you hold in your hands are not the originals, but originals mixed with the opinions and additions of copyists/translators.
Many of their commentaries got into the text, because the later copyist thought its the part of the text.

The message is there, but you cant for example defend 1J 5:7. It simply is the addition from the middle ages. So, please, do not build any vital theology on it :)
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

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#653
Mar 11, 2014
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#653
John146 said:
If God wanted it in His word, we would have it. This line of thought says our Bible is incomplete.
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the kjv is an inperfect copy of God's word. it is missing these words also.

ST. LUKE 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

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#654
Mar 11, 2014
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KJV1611 said:
These arguments are getting old... I'm tired of talking about this version has been tried this 6.5 times or 7 times and LXX say blah blah blah etc. Are any of you interested in studying bible verses and see how the stories line up between versions?
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Sure, but what will we do when they don't line up?

I see a number pattern in the Niv that's missing from the kjv.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#655
Nov 23, 2013
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#655
trofimus said:
I agree that I cant just study if the word should be there, I need a time to really read the meaning of the Bible.

But you must realize that what you hold in your hands are not the originals, but originals mixed with the opinions and additions of copyists/translators.
Many of their commentaries got into the text, because the later copyist thought its the part of the text.

The message is there, but you cant for example defend 1J 5:7. It simply is the addition from the middle ages. So, please, do not build any vital theology on it :)
Click to expand...
Take some time to just read the bible. The bible has to be studied as a whole, its hard to get meaning from single verses. Do a study on the kingdom of heaven, it's pretty cool. It exists right here and now on the earth and you can live in it right now! Not to be confused with the kingdom of heaven which is where God is. :)
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#656
Mar 11, 2014
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#656
John146 said:
It's all about trustworthiness. If the book you get the gospel out of is not trustworthy to begin with, how can you trust the gospel to be true?
Click to expand...
the perfect complete Bible is here

PSALMS 119:89 Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed
in the heavens.
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#658
Mar 11, 2014
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#658
John146 said:
It's all about trustworthiness. If the book you get the gospel out of is not trustworthy to begin with, how can you trust the gospel to be true?
Click to expand...
when talking to the Athenians, Paul doesn't mention a perfect bible, or any bible at all.

here's what he says they can count on

THE ACTS 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given

assurance to all by raising him from the dead.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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Aug 17, 2015
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#659
KJV1611 said:
Take some time to just read the bible. The bible has to be studied as a whole, its hard to get meaning from single verses. Do a study on the kingdom of heaven, it's pretty cool. It exists right here and now on the earth and you can live in it right now! Not to be confused with the kingdom of heaven which is where God is. :)
Click to expand...
I dont like studies about some specific word too much, because I think we must read the text in its context, not to just put verses with same words together :)

But I got your point.

We just need to hold our fantasy while reading and connecting various verses. We should not read the Bible "to discover something", because such discoveries are mostly wrong.
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

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#660
Mar 11, 2014
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#660
KJV1611 said:
When Jesus said "the son of man which is in heaven", he is speaking present tense while he was still on earth.
Click to expand...
this version gives even more information

JOHN 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven, where God the Father is. (RTEV)
 
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