The Kingdom Of God is Within You

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Apr 3, 2019
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#41
The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are used interchangeably in the new testament, whether it's "in you" or "in the midst of you" is not the point. The kingdom is not observable except by it's effects.

(Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation)

(Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you) "(or in the midst))}
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#42
If you check a good concordance (I use Young's) and look up Kingdom in both Matthew and Luke you will find that the majority
of kingdom references in Matthew use Kingdom of Heaven and in Luke the majority use Kingdom of God. I have read that the reason
for this is believed to be that Matthew was written mainly for Jewish Christians who would be offended at seeing Gods name being used
but Luke was written for mainly Gentile readers who would have no problem seeing it in print. The few exceptions in both Gospels could be due to ancient copying errors.
I see it as the kingdom of heaven is the promised Jewish kingdom on earth and the promised King ruling on the throne of David from Zion in Jerusalem. It’s only mentioned in Matthew.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#43
The few exceptions in both Gospels could be due to ancient copying errors.
So you're saying that the wording in Matthew 6:33, 12:28, 19:24, 21:31, 43 are commonly thought to be "copyist errors" ?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,127
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#44
I see it as the kingdom of heaven is the promised Jewish kingdom on earth and the promised King ruling on the throne of David from Zion in Jerusalem. It’s only mentioned in Matthew.
This is pretty much how I see it as well.

At some point during Jesus' earthly ministry, it ceased being said "the kingdom of the heavens is near"


(I believe this particular "message" will resume in the future trib years, when it will again be "near"--this particular Subject is what Matt24:33's "near" is speaking of, as I understand it [relating to Matt24:14(26:13) being preached DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"])
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#45
And when he was demanded of the of the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God should come. He answered them and
said The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation
neither shall they say Lo here or Lo there for behold the
Kingdom of God is within you


Luke 17:20 KJV

I would be interested to see exactly how people on site understand this statement seeing that he said
it to the Pharisees and not directly to his Disciples.

The temporal temple that stood in the holy place as a a abomination of desolation lost it value to deceive the nations .

While some did believe the kingdom did come by observation (walking by sight) When the veil was rent it exposed their nakedness . We are the temple .No temple in the new heavens and earth.

The kingdom of God works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure as a kingdom of priest from all the nations of the world. A great tribulation for the out ward Jew. One like never before or ever again still crying out to the w rocks the temporal things seen. A great Jubilee for the new creatures born from above . One like never before or ever again .It is still going its work of revealing the will of God, the gospel of our salvation .
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#46
And when he was demanded of the of the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God should come. He answered them and
said The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation
neither shall they say Lo here or Lo there for behold the
Kingdom of God is within you


Luke 17:20 KJV

I would be interested to see exactly how people on site understand this statement seeing that he said
it to the Pharisees and not directly to his Disciples.
The disciples already knew that they would receive the Holy Spirit, and John the baptist already said it, and Jesus already told them, which when a person receives the Holy Spirit the kingdom of God is within them for they then will show the ways of God on earth.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

But the disciples did not understand that it was not a physical kingdom that should come at that time, but they will receive the Holy Spirit and be witnesses unto Him then they understood.

Which is why Jesus said that some were standing there that shall not taste of death until the kingdom of God comes for at the day of Pentecost when they received the Spirit the kingdom of God came, and the people could receive the Spirit and be part of the Church.

So there was no physical kingdom to come at that time, but the Holy Spirit operating in the saints lives.

The Pharisees wanted Jesus to tell them when the kingdom of God shall come which they were thinking it would be a physical kingdom in which Jesus and the saints would rule, and extinguish the rule of the Romans and the Pharisees, and the Pharisees were probably thinking it is not going to happen for they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

But Jesus told them that the kingdom is not a physical kingdom that shall rule over other people, and enforce their ways upon them that they cannot resist, but the kingdom of God is within you for it is spiritual.

Which the Pharisees did not understand that it meant when a person receives the Spirit of God.

Jesus would not say it to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is in them personally for they were not saved and could not receive the Spirit.

And neither would the Pharisees understand that it meant when a person is saved and receives the Spirit of God, for they did not believe Jesus was of God.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#47
Me - Jesus is prince and Savior right now (Acts 5), interceding on our behalf. He is a king in waiting. I am looking for that blessed hope when the Lord calls His bride out of here, the marriage of the Lamb occurs, and we return with Him to reign with Him on the earth. He will be King and rule with a rod of iron. Righteousness and peace will be on earth.
That is stated nowhere near as clearly anywhere in His word. It has to be Frankenstein"ed" together from a bunch of different passages that have nothing to do with a "pre-trib rapture" on their own. Even the idea of a third temple is so insanely illogical on every level that the traditional view of the AoD happening in God's temple is now being abandoned in my conversations here all of the sudden, and for the first time ever in my experience. Now they have started to "spiritualize", and warped into something else completely, which again I have to add I never heard anyone at all say until I started bringing up what I have dubbed "the 3rd temple dilemma". This I have found literally enrages people, they will not address it, and will strait up stop talking to you over it. Just to note that these are people that have called me brother. Any challenge to the status quo invokes instant defense and aggression, complete rejection and condemnation before any investigation or meaningful consideration.

Look I understand your view, I really do. I have been taught it, and investigated it. I believed it because it was what every preacher I ever heard taught. What He has opened my eyes to is that it is not what He says, that He did everything He said He was going to do just like He said He was going to do it. Strait up. Anything else makes Jesus a liar, or necessitates adding to His word.

Since you seem so certain of your view maybe you can answer this "3rd temple thing" for me. To start I want to establish what you believe, the truth you stand on.
Do you believe that the AoD as described in Matt, Rev & Dan takes place in Gods Holy temple. The temple He commanded built, the temple the daily sacrifices take place in, and most of all the temple is where God dwells. Do you believe that this temple is what the Antichrist desecrates by sacrificing a pig and naming himself God in? Again before I started bringing up this problem I never heard any of this questioned at all. This was how it was going to happen.

My second question for you concerns scripture. Do you believe it it "closed" like Paul warns of. Adding to scripture. Does God still talk to us as He did in the past, or in these last days did He speck through His Son. Everything we need to repair the falling away, through Jesus and Gods grace we are reconciled back to Him as we were created to be. It is finished. So do you believe scripture is closed, or do we need to give every Charles Taze Russell, Joseph smith, Mohammed an extra hard look because God might really be speaking them.

Man I appreciate you talking to me. I just want you to know I'm not trying to be mean, ugly, condescending, disrespectful, or especially disregardful of where we are. I don't "know" you, but seeing where we are at, I see us as just 2 brothers talking. I shoot strait, assume you do too and hope so always, but I just want that to set the tone so you don't think I'm trying to fight or anything.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#48
Man I appreciate you talking to me. I just want you to know I'm not trying to be mean, ugly, condescending, disrespectful, or especially disregardful of where we are. I don't "know" you, but seeing where we are at, I see us as just 2 brothers talking. I shoot strait, assume you do too and hope so always, but I just want that to set the tone so you don't think I'm trying to fight or anything.
Agreed brother. I’ll get back with you when I can. We’re just talking Bible, that’s all. And no about furthering revelation. I am a KJV only believer and every word we need has been preserved in the scriptures. Any direction from the Holy Spirit will line up with His written word.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#49
So you're saying that the wording in Matthew 6:33, 12:28, 19:24, 21:31, 43 are commonly thought to be "copyist errors" ?
I didnt say they were commonly thought to be I meant it has been suggested by some to be. The fact remains that according to Youngs concordance and the Gospels the main wording in Matthew is kingdom of heaven and in Luke kingdom of God. Do you think Matthew and Luke were showing Jesus talking about two exclusive places in their Gospels? Gods kingdom is everywhere because God is everywhere. Paul tells us that in him (God) we live and move and have our being. You can't get more inclusive than that
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#50
[...] bringing up what I have dubbed "the 3rd temple dilemma". This I have found literally enrages people, they will not address it, and will strait up stop talking to you over it.
I haven't followed any real recent convos on that point, but I do recall (I think) addressing with you the fact that wherever Paul speaks of "the Church which is His body" as "temple," he never uses "the definite article ['the' temple]".


Once "the Church which is His body" ('temple') is "caught up/away," then thereafter (quite a bit after this) would come the mid-trib point-in-time when the 2Th2:4 event occurs, involving what is called there "THE temple of God" (just as it in in Rev11:1). With "the Church which is His body" ('temple') no longer present on the earth, what would the problem be with that item (in 2Th2:4 / Rev11:1) being called "THE temple of God" that "the man of sin" will sit in [I wrote a long post about the word "SIT" here], and so forth?

Just wondering. :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#51
I didnt say they were commonly thought to be I meant it has been suggested by some to be.
Fair enough. = )

The fact remains that according to Youngs concordance and the Gospels the main wording in Matthew is kingdom of heaven and in Luke kingdom of God.
I don't disagree here. :)

Do you think Matthew and Luke were showing Jesus talking about two exclusive places in their Gospels?
Not exactly. I've stated that I believe "the kingdom of God" is more broadly encompassing (for lack of a better way of saying it) than that of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom).

Gods kingdom is everywhere because God is everywhere.
In the early parts of Matthew, it was said, "the kingdom of the heavens IS AT HAND [G1448]" (or, 'near') [Matt3:2,4:17,10:7]. Which I believe is somewhat distinct from saying it "IS PRESENT" (a whole different Greek word for that phrase would be used, if it meant that... G1764, for example: 'IS PRESENT').

Paul tells us that in him (God) we live and move and have our being. You can't get more inclusive than that
 

biker

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2020
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#52
And when he was demanded of the of the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God should come. He answered them and
said The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation
neither shall they say Lo here or Lo there for behold the
Kingdom of God is within you


Luke 17:20 KJV

I would be interested to see exactly how people on site understand this statement seeing that he said
it to the Pharisees and not directly to his Disciples.

It's kind of like when 2 or more are gathered in Jesus Name, He is there in the Midst. The Disciples knew what He meant, but religious nutjobs never could grasp such a concept.

I wish to expand on my first part "when 2 or more are gathered in Jesus Name, He is there in the Midst." Ironically, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. But when we gather, it is Jesus Who is in the Midst. I find that rather fascinating. The Holy Spirit is to confirm all Christ said while on Earth plus supplies us with Godly weapons and Fruits of the Spirit. But if am full of the Holy Ghost and You are full of the Holy Ghost and we gather in Jesus Name, it is Jesus, not the Holy Ghost Who is in the Midst.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#53
Showing that words matter. The words Heaven and God are not interchangeable.
Yours is truly a silly argument. Are "British Commonwealth" and "Queen Elizabeth" interchangeable? No. Is the British Commonwealth the realm of Queen Elizabeth? Yes. It's exactly the same principle.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#54
Most modern translations render that phrase "the Kingdom of God is in your midst" or " the Kingdom of God is among you". I know the KJV Onlyists will go into convulsions when they read this, but this verse is one of many that the KJV translators got very wrong.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#55
There is no physical kingdom. All of the kingdom verses depict a spiritual only kingdom.
There are different dimensions, each completely different. I have read that science has proven 11 different ones. Our dimension has time with past, present, and future. We know God lives in an eternal dimension. God is the "I am". I don't think any human truly comprehends what that is like. We are told that we see darkly: 1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known".

It is usually a mistake when scripture is said to be only spiritual or only physical. The Lord tells of physical things to help us understand the spiritual and each verse needs to be thought of as physical, also spiritual and often hinting at things we are usually not capable of understanding in the present state of our spiritual understanding growth.
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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#56
And when he was demanded of the of the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God should come. He answered them and
said The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation
neither shall they say Lo here or Lo there for behold the
Kingdom of God is within you


Luke 17:20 KJV

I would be interested to see exactly how people on site understand this statement seeing that he said
it to the Pharisees and not directly to his Disciples.
Well honestly I believe he was talking about the holy spirit not that the Pharisees had it but he simply was answering their question even though they would not understand what it meant. When I was saved the first thing I was overwhelmed with was life and joy
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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#57
Most modern translations render that phrase "the Kingdom of God is in your midst" or " the Kingdom of God is among you". I know the KJV Onlyists will go into convulsions when they read this, but this verse is one of many that the KJV translators got very wrong.
That might be the reason so many disagree with the modern translation, "Man doesn't live by the inspired word of men but by the word they hear spoken by the LORD."

Yet, in defence of the KJV translators, they did get the verse in John 5:25 right, or at least according to the modern translations...

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"I can guarantee this truth: A time is coming (and is now here) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who respond to it will live.

International Standard Version
Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, the time approaches, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

New International Version
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#58
I haven't followed any real recent convos on that point, but I do recall (I think) addressing with you the fact that wherever Paul speaks of "the Church which is His body" as "temple," he never uses "the definite article ['the' temple]".


Once "the Church which is His body" ('temple') is "caught up/away," then thereafter (quite a bit after this) would come the mid-trib point-in-time when the 2Th2:4 event occurs, involving what is called there "THE temple of God" (just as it in in Rev11:1). With "the Church which is His body" ('temple') no longer present on the earth, what would the problem be with that item (in 2Th2:4 / Rev11:1) being called "THE temple of God" that "the man of sin" will sit in [I wrote a long post about the word "SIT" here], and so forth?

Just wondering. :)
I do remember this vaguely, and for the record I do believe we are the temple that God now dwells in once again, after we are born again by His grace and Jesus sacrifice. But that's a HUGE part of my point, the AoD as described in Mat, Dan, Rev.... happens in Gods earthly temple and I have NEVER heard it argued otherwise until I started bringing this up. And I do remember you I think, but there was a lot of "maybe this means" and "this could mean this" in your answer, and it just started getting so far from what is written as to be "added" in my opinion. Also you were not "enraged" and where one of the few that did actually speak to the subject, it's just I found your answer to fall short in my opinion, which admittedly means very little, but I formed this opinion because I think the other explanation fits His word better. So I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking of you, but if you go through that thread and read all the conversations I think you will find my descriptions hard to call inaccurate.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#59
There will be a physical kingdom on this earth, ruled by Jesus Christ from Jerusalem.

Assuming you're saved, you'll be in it.
He is in us . We are the new temporal temple a shadow of His glory .In the new heavens and earth no temple. No need for Sun and Moon .There will be no night the glory of God is the light . The two corrupted time keepers served there temporal purpose.

We simply do not know Christ after the corrupted things seen as rudiments of this world. as oral traditions of men that seek after the philosophies of men . We walk by the faith of Christ working in us the eternal not seen, as it is written .He can light the path and lead us.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philippians 2: 13-14


There will be physical kingdom. But not on this corrupted earth. There will be no corrupted flesh and blood as rudiments in the new creation .

Flesh and blood represents . . . . dead, never to rise to new spirit life in a new incorruptible body (not corrupted flesh and blood ) Our living hope..

What or what form or shape we as sons of God will be is not revealed .What is revealed She will not have the need to multiply or equipment designed to make it possible .Neither male nor female, Jew not gentile. No giving into marriage .

The shadows of smoke has left, the new or other appears .
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,127
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#60
I do remember this vaguely, and for the record I do believe we are the temple that God now dwells in once again, after we are born again by His grace and Jesus sacrifice. But that's a HUGE part of my point, the AoD as described in Mat, Dan, Rev.... happens in Gods earthly temple and I have NEVER heard it argued otherwise until I started bringing this up. And I do remember you I think, but there was a lot of "maybe this means" and "this could mean this" in your answer, and it just started getting so far from what is written as to be "added" in my opinion. Also you were not "enraged" and where one of the few that did actually speak to the subject, it's just I found your answer to fall short in my opinion, which admittedly means very little, but I formed this opinion because I think the other explanation fits His word better. So I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking of you, but if you go through that thread and read all the conversations I think you will find my descriptions hard to call inaccurate.
I vaguely recall in our convos the difficulty I'm finding in your "chronology"... for example, I had posted the following (as part of our discussion--if I'm recalling rightly that it was with you, and I think I am :D ):


[quoting an old post on the "[BE] SET UP [H5414]" of Daniel 12:11]

Here's something I posted back in ___, when discussing with ___... Note especially the parts about the "abomination [SINGULAR]" that both Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 12:11 use (connecting these in particular) and the word for "set up" in Dan12:11--I believe this is important to note:

[quoting that post from back then (pretty sure my highlighting won't transfer here)]

Here's my thinking on that.

I think I've mentioned a cpl times the usage of the "abomination [singular]" that Jesus refers to (where He said in Matt24:15 "When ye therefore see the abomination [singular] of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."), that this points back to its usage in the singular also in Daniel, that being Daniel 12:11 "the abomination [singular] which maketh desolate SET UP [H5414]..."; so it is this "set up [H5414]" word that I think may help us when looking into [...<snip>...]

--"set up" - H5414 - "weletet/nathan" - [meaning] "give, put, set [established, permit, executes]"

[...<snip>...]

"and the abomination [singular (like Matt24:15)] that maketh desolate set up [H5414]..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12-11.htm [then hover your cursor over the number 5414, here at link, to see the pop-up extended definition and usages]

[and]

Allow me to just insert (what I've said in the past), I do believe the "flee" in Matt24:16 correlates with the "fled/fly" of Rev12:6,14 (with 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom)… so there's that, to consider also.

[i.e. the duration of time in both passages ENDS at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (not "our Rapture") and the resurrection of OT saints (per Dan12:13's wording speaking of "at the END of the days [the "days" referred to in THAT context]") FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]" (Matt8:11, for example)--Whereas Daniel 12:12 speaks of those who will still be LIVING at that same point in time: "BLESSED" (parallel with about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages that speak to this same Subject matter/time-slot--like Luke 12:36-37,38,40-42 'when he will RETURN FROM the wedding'... THEN the meal... "BLESSED" (and this passage's parallels--Matt24:42-47 "BLESSED," etc); and like in Rev19:9 "BLESSED" re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the MK age (distinct from v.7); and like in Rev16:15-16 "BLESSED" (Armageddon timing), etc etc]

[and]

See also Matthew 24:15's "standing [G2476 - histemi]" :

--"standing [G2476 - hestos/histemi]" … "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast." [source: Bible Hub; G2476 in Matthew 24:15 is a "transitive verb" as shown defined in the bolded portion above]

[end quoting that portion, with a clarifying inserted bracketed section for this post]


____________

I had also mentioned the "chronology" aspect supplied by the wording in Lk21:12, which (when boiled down) says that the beginning of birth pangs won't happen until the 70ad events take place "BEFORE" them... and that the 70ad events "end" with what Lk21:24b states, "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" (with v.32's "ALL"--"till ALL be fulfilled" necessarily INCLUDING what v.24b just said), whereas Matt24:29-31's "end [-result / -outcome]" (when viewing its parallel passage of Isa27:12-13) has them being gathered TO... JERUSALEM"--the EXACT OPPOSITE "outcomes / ends".

As I recall it (tho somewhat fuzzy, I admit), your viewpoint does not have adequate explanation for these things. So I remain unconvinced of your view. = )