The Law Debacle Resolved

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just-me

just-me

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Mar 4, 2013
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#41
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The law commands that every male be physically circumcised. Those who weren't were cut off from Israel.

If any male is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that man will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant. Genesis 17:14

And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3​

Paul said physical circumcision was of no value and every one who got physically circumcised for the sake of keeping law were cut off from Christ.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. ... For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:3-4, 6​

Who do you obey?
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InSpiritInTruth said:
This is a good example of the flesh of the law,(carnally understood) verses the Spirit of the law(spiritually understood).

Keep in mind the natural law was just a shadow of good things to come, but not the very image of those things.

Some people still only see the outward appearance of the true spiritual law being yet carnally minded. That is the "enmity" and the veil of the flesh that must be removed from the mind so one can see the true image of the spiritual law.

In this example you gave above the physical circumcision (motion of the carnal ordinance) was to be a shadow (token/sign) of the true spiritual circumcision of the heart, done by the Spirit of God and not by the hands of men.
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AMEN brother!

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Deuteronomy 10:16

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. omans 2:29

The taking away of the burier that covers the heart, prohibiting it from receiving the truth.
 
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JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#42
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#42
Thank you always for your constant reminders of on topic scripture. The blind cannot see it, but it is edification for all who love our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ. God bless you always....amen.

Brother_Don said:
Can we stay on topic? Can there be a thread that doesn't turn into a train wreck( debacle )? Usually when someone trust another and depends on them they do what the trusted says. Jesus said if you love Me you will do what I say. He also said we can't serve 2 master. One Master is Obedience, the other is iniquity. Who do we want to serve? Jesus Christ of course, He preached on obedience, and He never even gave the idea, that being obedient is a bad thing. He preached a lot on Kingdom living(obedience). Jesus didn't preach and talk about Himself as much as He did the Kingdom, and everything else The Father told Him to say.
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HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Sep 4, 2012
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#43
InSpiritInTruth said:
This is a good example of the flesh of the law,(carnally understood) verses the Spirit of the law(spiritually understood).

Keep in mind the natural law was just a shadow of good things to come, but not the very image of those things.

Some people still only see the outward appearance of the true spiritual law being yet carnally minded. That is the "enmity" and the veil of the flesh that must be removed from the mind so one can see the true image of the spiritual law.

In this example you gave above the physical circumcision (motion of the carnal ordinance) was to be a shadow (token/sign) of the true spiritual circumcision of the heart, done by the Spirit of God and not by the hands of men.
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So what you just said, whether you realize it or not (I don't know), is that the letter (what you call carnal) is irrelevant (i.e., GOD's commandment to be physically circumcised can be ignored), and the spirit of the law must be done (i.e., you must be spiritually circumcised).

I agree.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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JaumeJ said:
W
My reference is to "Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize." In my esteem it is a wonderful thread.
Am I in error? Is that thread Ember's thread? If it is I stand corrected young man. Thank you and may God bless you ..
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wow talk about passive aggressive...
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#45
#45
just-me said:
The hypocritical Pharisees justified their rejection and distortion of God's law. The righteous Pharisees such as Nicodemus and Paul accepted all of God's word unlike those hypocrites. I think that's the difference in the threads that you and JaumeJ are addressing.
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Paul and nicodemus saw the law for what it was. A schoolmaster.

Sadly, They saw what you refuse to see.

The pharisee appeared righteous, because thatys all they could do. Paul and nicodemus saw them selves as wretched, because the law finally pricked them to the heart, and they realised how impossible it is to obey. And this led them to Christ
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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#46
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#46
eternally-gratefull said:
Jesus was not good because he followed some law He was good because he loved perfectly.
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That's true. In fact, Jesus didn't follow the law, he followed the spirit. Though he was under the law, he was above it. In fact, he was lord of the law.
 
just-me

just-me

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#47
Mar 4, 2013
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#47
eternally-gratefull said:
Paul and nicodemus saw the law for what it was. A schoolmaster.

Sadly, They saw what you refuse to see.

The pharisee appeared righteous, because thatys all they could do. Paul and nicodemus saw them selves as wretched, because the law finally pricked them to the heart, and they realised how impossible it is to obey. And this led them to Christ
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Describe to us all the analogy that Paul was using in this explanation. What was a "schoolmaster" in those days?"
 
JesusLives

JesusLives

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#48
Oct 11, 2013
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#48
eternally-gratefull said:
I must disagree, Jesus said there is a better way.

Law can not show us what all sin is. Nor can it make us righteous (and no I am not saying saved, I mean morally good)

Jesus was not good because he followed some law He was good because he loved perfectly.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. Not following some law, which can never make us righteous (again, I am not saying saved, I mean morally good)


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Where do you get any of that in reading what I wrote? Where did I say we are saved by the law? Why are you assuming that is what I said? I just don't get it.... Same dog chasing his tail over and over again....

If we didn't have law none of us would be sinning because there is no guideline to follow....

The 10 are just rules of God's government.... there is nothing about circumcision in the 10..... That was a covenant made between Abraham and God handed down to the Jews not a commandment to all in the world....

I am addressing a few people not just the person I am posting too you know who you are...

I just want all of you in this thread to know that in my heart I hold love for all of you.... I get frustrated with our inability to communicate with each other...in a loving and civil way..... All I want really and truly is for us to be able to understand each other and to get along in our discussions of God's word....

It is too bad we can't all be in a room together and see expressions and search the scriptures together showing which texts we are using for the reason we believe what we are sharing with each other....

I believe everyone in this thread knows that we are saved only through Jesus and His sacrifice none of us are saying the law saves you.

Hugs and cookies...

~
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#49
#49
JesusLives said:
Where do you get any of that in reading what I wrote? Where did I say we are saved by the law? Why are you assuming that is what I said? I just don't get it.... Same dog chasing his tail over and over again....
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Where did you get that I said you said we were saved by the law? That is not even what I was refereing to. (which is why I kept saying, not saved, but morally good)

Sadly that is what gets us in trouble here, we assume things instead of asking. If you thought that is what I was saying yuo should have asked, instead of assuming.

I was responding to your reference that the law shows us what sin is. and thus is still needed after we are saved.
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
When grace says one thing, and the law says another, which do you obey?
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This speaks to the heart of the many divisions we now see in these discussions, because the spirit of the law does not speak differently. The main problem and division (enmity) is between the flesh (carnally minded) verses the Spirit (spiritually minded).

It is the perception of the carnal mind that thinks it sees a division between Grace and law but both came from the same God. Moses understood what the Spirit was truly saying in the law given to him by God, but the people at the time could not behold the greater glory of it because of the vail of the flesh covering their minds from perceiving it and truly hearing what the Spirit was saying in it. This covering of the mind to perceive and understand the spirit of the law was also symbolized in the veil Moses wore to cover the glory of God which shown in his face.

So the division and enmity is in the perception of the mind, as the carnally minded teach the precepts of men, but the Holy Spirit teaches us through God's eyes and perception by giving us the mind of Christ.



Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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#51
Sep 4, 2012
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#51
InSpiritInTruth said:
This speaks to the heart of the many divisions we now see in these discussions, because the spirit of the law does not speak differently. The main problem and division (enmity) is between the flesh (carnally minded) verses the Spirit (spiritually minded).

It is the perception of the carnal mind that thinks it sees a division between Grace and law but both came from the same God. Moses understood what the Spirit was truly saying in the law given to him by God, but the people at the time could not behold the greater glory of it because of the vail of the flesh covering their minds from perceiving it and truly hearing what the Spirit was saying in it. This covering of the mind to perceive and understand the spirit of the law was also symbolized in the veil Moses wore to cover the glory of God which shown in his face.

So the division and enmity is in the perception of the mind, as the carnally minded teach the precepts of men, but the Holy Spirit teaches us through God's eyes and perception by giving us the mind of Christ.



Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
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Very nice, but it didn't answer my question. When the law says do this, and grace says do that, which do you do?
 
just-me

just-me

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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Very nice, but it didn't answer my question. When the law says do this, and grace says do that, which do you do?
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By that question of yours, you just confirmed what InSpiritInTruth was presenting about a carnal mind versus a spiritual mind. This has to do with the "debacle," revealed about the Pharisees during Jesus' time on earth, that is presented in the OP.
 
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JesusLives

JesusLives

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Oct 11, 2013
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eternally-gratefull said:

Where did you get that I said you said we were saved by the law? That is not even what I was refereing to. (which is why I kept saying, not saved, but morally good)

Sadly that is what gets us in trouble here, we assume things instead of asking. If you thought that is what I was saying yuo should have asked, instead of assuming.

I was responding to your reference that the law shows us what sin is. and thus is still needed after we are saved.
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The thing is that not every human is saved and we still need the law for those to see that they need a Savior. God's law wasn't done away with at the cross it was fulfilled with Jesus death on the cross, but the law is still valid it still shows the rules of God's government.

Just because my daughter obeys the rules in my house doesn't mean they go away the rules are still there they just don't have to be enforced with punishment if not followed... but the rules are still. Just as if we break God's rules there are consequences... the wages of sin is death..... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Sep 4, 2012
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#54
just-me said:
By that question of yours, you just confirmed what InSpiritInTruth was presenting about a carnal mind versus a spiritual mind. This has to do with the "debacle," revealed about the Pharisees during Jesus' time on earth, that is presented in the OP.
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By your response, you just confirmed that you are operating out of a hypnotized mind.
 
InSpiritInTruth

InSpiritInTruth

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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
So what you just said, whether you realize it or not (I don't know), is that the letter (what you call carnal) is irrelevant (i.e., GOD's commandment to be physically circumcised can be ignored), and the spirit of the law must be done (i.e., you must be spiritually circumcised).

I agree.
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Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you but trying to prove a point how the letter (outward motions) of the law were really pointing to the spirit (inward) fulfillment of the law written in our hearts, and to be revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. So I wouldn't say the natural law is irrelevant because it points to the true spiritual. It's just that no one will ever be justified by the motions and keeping of those carnal ordinances. (works of the law)

But the law still prophesies for those who can truly hear what the Spirit is saying in it.


Isaiah 8:16
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#56
#56
just-me said:
Describe to us all the analogy that Paul was using in this explanation. What was a "schoolmaster" in those days?"
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Schoomaster - tutor - guardian A slave who was placed over the children of the rich and influential to supervise their daily lives, and keep them in line, These children were not even aloud to step out of the house without these "tutors" or "guides" until they reach adulthood.

Context. A schoolmaster kept their kids in line with whatever was the parent instructed them to do. His purpose was to get the child graduation (adulthood) with every thing needed for the child to have a successful life.

In the context of paul. The end result is Christ. The law was given as a gilde to give us every tool we need to graduate (find Christ) which would result in salvation.

How did paul say the law did this?

1. added because of transgressions.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions,

2. In place until the offspring of the promise given abraham would come (christ)

until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary

3. Holds us captive (like the child, we can not go anywhere without the "tutor" being with then, thus they were basically held captive by the schoolmaster until the reach the destination point which was adulthood) until faith is revealed.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

4. It proved to us we are under a curse, for no one has fulfilled the law as required by God through moses.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

5. Paul explains the whole purpose in one sentence.. The schoolmaster is our guardian, until Christ came that we may be justified by faith.


[SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

6. Once the end result is achieved the "gardian" is no longer needed, it has done its purpose. The child is no longer a slave to the gaurdian, he is free to go out on his own, make his own mistakes. and grow in obedience to his master, the ceasar. .

Once we come to Christ, the gardian (law) is no longer needed, we are not longer held slaves to it any more. we are free to go out on our own, and grow in the love of our master (God himself)

Paul said it led us to Christ. And once we have found christ, we no longer need it.

So you tell us why paul lied

And next time you think your going to be tricky, Think again.. It just backfired on you!
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#57
#57
JesusLives said:
The thing is that not every human is saved and we still need the law for those to see that they need a Savior. God's law wasn't done away with at the cross it was fulfilled with Jesus death on the cross, but the law is still valid it still shows the rules of God's government.
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Yes that is why ever jot and tittle will be in effect and it will never fade away, we agree sis.

Just because my daughter obeys the rules in my house doesn't mean they go away the rules are still there they just don't have to be enforced with punishment if not followed... but the rules are still. Just as if we break God's rules there are consequences... the wages of sin is death..... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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The wage of sin is no longer death to a child of God. But there are still wages, we agree.

But obeying rules are not what makes your kids obedient to you. It is their love for you. and trust in you. When they think of self. your rules will not be able to stop them from doing what they want.
 
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Sirk

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#59
#59
Jesus prayed.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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Do as Jesus teaches and what He did.......... Why argue grace without law? How do others not see that Jesus teaches the law with grace?

Blind, deaf and dumb. Stop arguing when it is there in front of our face. Do not defy the Lord's teaching, and do not call profane what is holy.

Stay on topic.
 
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