The Law of Grace

Laodicea · Feb 11, 2012

Yea Moses broke the first stones, when he went back up, who wrote them the 2nd time? but this has nothing to do with what you said. You said "the law of Moses is not the law of God"

The 10 commandments were given by God, it does not matter who wrote them. Paul wrote Romans does that make it the Paul's word, or God's word.

The 10 command were the foundation of the entire law.

And Paul is speaking of them both, because they are not separate in nature, they were not under two laws, one from Moses, one from God. It was all God's law.

Paul specifically mentions, to let no one judge us of "the sabbath days" which would be included in what your calling the "law of God".

And when Christ said "ye have hear it said by them of old" "thou shalt not kill" he was directly speaking of the commands, yet he says "but I say unto you" showing the authority he had in making His law over that law.

We are not under any part of the old law. The 10 commands are not binding as they stand, but is it wrong to murder, yes, should we worship other god's; no. All covered in the NT.

If we are still under then we must keep the sabbath days and do no work on it, and that would be doing what Paul just said not to.

The sabbath day was a symbolic of God's rest, which is looking forward to Christ and our promised rest, and that is found in Heb 4 - our sabbath day will be eternal rest in heaven.

We no longer need to symbolize it, we know the true image, Christ revealed it to us.

If we did not have the OT as part of our Bible, we could still know what we need to do, by the NT alone.

The OT is simply for our leaning - Rom 15:4,I Cor 10:9-11, to see how God dealt with man, and learn by example.

I have shown you Biblical evidence while you have shown none, there is no text in the Bible that says the Law of God is done away, in fact Revelation says this:-
Revelation 12:17
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Avinu · Feb 11, 2012

Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law/Torah shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law/Torah, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

IN THE LAST DAYS... PAY ATTENTION... THESE SCRIPTURES SAY IN THE LAST DAYS...

Yet even more Biblical evidence of the truth that Torah/law/Commandments of YHVH will never be done away with or go anywhere. Those who continue to declare that they are no longer risk serious judgment upon your head. For who is able to declare one dot or one tittle to be cast away from YHVH's word?

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Laodicea said:

Well if dont consider scripture as Bible evidence then I cant convince you of anything.

Second, your understanding of the 10 commandments and the law of God is wrong.

if the law of God is limited to the 10 commands, who was the Law of Moses from? then what is the law we are under now?

Do we have to keep the sabbath day now under the new Testament?

Why would Paul tell us not to let anyone judge us according to the law of God - Col 2:14?

All law is of God. The Old and the New.

The passage from Rev does not prove the 10 commandments, the law of God is to keep the testimony of Christ - Jn 6.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

I notice you method of interpretation is when you find a term referring to one thing in a passage, you apply that defintion everywhere else you find that term, no matter the context it is in. You do the same with "forever".

Terms apply to different meaning in different context.

For example "the law" - Rom context shows us it is the Law of Moses.
I Jn 3:4 - is the law that we are under, in which we can call the law of Christ, or the law of God, considering Crhist only spoke the words given to him by the Father.

And you never answered the question: who wrote the law on the tables the 2nd time after Moses broke them?

Which ones were placed in the ark of the covenant?

Who gave the Law to Moses to reveal to Israel?

Must we keep the sabbath day?

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Avinu said:

what do you think the last days are refering to? the end of time, or the end of the Law of Moses?

The last day (singular) is different from the last days (plural).

The last days are describing the end of the OT and the begin of the NEw.

Look at Joel for an example:

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

When was this fulfilled? On the day of Pentecost, 2000 years ago:
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

another example:
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The writer here is referring to the days he was presently living as the "last days".
This is consistent in the fact the destruction of Jerusalem came just a few years after - AD 70.
The temple destroyed just as Christ said it would be - Mat 24:1-3.
It was the last days of the law.

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The last time - or the "last times" i.e the end, of the Mosaical law system, and beginning of the reign to Christ.
Many of the passage in which you cited above are referring to this same event.

Israel · Feb 11, 2012

feedm3 said:

God actually spoke through angels to all of Israel the 10 commandments. The rest was given to Moses to speak to the people. All of the 10 are summed up in love as the rest of the law was added because of transgression. Love is powerful as it truly covers a multitude of sins.

There is no such thing as a law of grace. It is given as freely as the sun and rain to all.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Israel said:

Sure it is, yet we can reject it just a freely as it was given, and this is where the laws come in - II Cor 6:1
What about the law of Christ? Gal 6:2

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Israel said:

Passage please?
Angel can mean a human messenger by the way.

Avinu · Feb 11, 2012

Hebrew word for last in Isaiah 2:2-4

אחרית
'achărı̂yth
akh-ar-eeth'
From H310; the last or end, hence the future; also posterity: - (last, latter) end (time), hinder (utter) -most, length, posterity, remnant, residue, reward.

Here is the hebrew word for last in Micah 4:1-4
H319
אחרית
'achărı̂yth
akh-ar-eeth'
From H310; the last or end, hence the future; also posterity: - (last, latter) end (time), hinder (utter) -most, length, posterity, remnant, residue, reward.

So in both cases this shows you are incorrect my friend. You cannot declare the word last day/s to mean something without proof.

As for Joel it is a book ALL about prophecy of the last days. End time. Finality

Joel 2:28-32 describe very same happenings that are described in Revelation.

Yes since Yeshua we are in the last days, and now we are in the final stages of it. Which just strengthens my point even more.
Shalom

Israel · Feb 11, 2012

feedm3 said:

Does not nature teach us these things? What man can refuse the air he breathes or the sun and its light. These are VISIBLE things given to us freely. We can no more refuse grace than we can the rain.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

II Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

if it was not possible to reject it, it would not be possible to receive it in vain (empty, pointless, ineffective)

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Avinu said:

Sorry, but shows a lexicon definition does not refute the context in which the Bible uses the word.
The definitions are the literal meaning of the word, thy do not consider how the words are used in it's context.

The definition has not changed, what is it referring to depends on the context.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

BTW guys, I am still waiting for answer concerning the keeping the sabbath. If someone would answer this, maybe I can understand your potions a little better.

Are we to keep the sabbath day?
Is it a sin to work on the sabbath day?
When is the Sabbath day?

Laodicea · Feb 11, 2012

feedm3 said:

It looks like you do not have a correct understanding of the Law. The Law of God was written by God the Law of Moses.
Romans 7:22
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 8:7
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Joshua 8:31
(31) As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Acts 15:1-5
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
(2) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
(3) And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
(4) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
(5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

feedm3 said:

Colossians 2:14
(14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This verse is not talking about the Law of God But, the handwriting of ordinances which was the Law of Moses. It is impossible for the Law of God to change because it is a transcript of the character of God

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Laodicea said:

I think you made a typo or something, I cant understand what you mean for certian. did you mean "the law of God was written by IN the law of Moses, or what?

Theses passages definjtally do not help your view.
This is speaking of law in gerneral, in which all law has been given by God.
If not it's means the carnal mind cannot be subject to only the 10 commands, but that would mean it can be for all others.

Yes it is, it is talking about every law system before the coming of Christ.
If not then Christ changed the law of God, when he added to Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery etc.

Laodicea · Feb 11, 2012

It looks like you do not have a correct understanding of the Law. The Law of God was written by God, the Law of Moses was written by Moses.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Laodicea said:

It was "penned" by Moses. It was not Moses' law as in he directed what would be commanded and what not.

How can this be an incorrect understanding. Do you believe Moses sat down and thought up the law on his own with no help from God?

Paul sometimes referred to his words as "our gospel" does this mean it was not given by God?

If you believe that then it you with the incorrect understanding.

If you do not believe that, then what are we even talking about?

.....and the sabbath?

Avinu · Feb 11, 2012

The Ten Commandments were written by the finger of YHVH. The rest of Torah except for the last few chapters were written by Moshe directed by YHVH, people need to remember, Moshe had a direct constant conversation with YHVH. There was no mistaking what to write and how.

feedm3 · Feb 11, 2012

Avinu said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I believe. Except after Moses broke the first tablet, God did not rewrite them. but what does it matter, it is all the law of God, given by God. thats my whole point concerning that.

As for the rest, we are now under the NT, not any Law from the OT, because Christ covered everything in the NT.
Even the 10(9 with sabbath exception) commands have been changed by the word of Christ, which is still the word of God.

Laodicea · Feb 11, 2012

feedm3 said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I believe. Except after Moses broke the first tablet, God did not rewrite them. but what does it matter, it is all the law of God, given by God. thats my whole point concerning that.

As for the rest, we are now under the NT, not any Law from the OT, because Christ covered everything in the NT.
Even the 10(9 with sabbath exception) commands have been changed by the word of Christ, which is still the word of God.

So the real issue you have is with the sabbath

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