The Law

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
#41
The only function of the law for the Christian is a reminder that we cannot keep it. We continue to sin and break the law every single day, because we know it's impossible to keep so we don't worry when we break it.

We were forgiven for breaking the law in our past, present and future. We will remain sinners until we die, but have been forgiven and justified and made righteous so our salvation is 100% guaranteed and we have nothing to worry about.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:5-8 KJV)
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#42
Do you think that is so? That we become obedient after we are saved?
What of Acts of the Apostles and chapter 2? Peter is in Jerusalem and speaking to thousands gathered. He and the 11 other Apostles are there.
Many in the crowd become convicted of their part in Messiahs death.

Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2
32 So Jesus is the One whom God raised from the dead. And we are all witnesses to this. 33 Jesus was ·lifted up to heaven and is now at [L exalted to] God’s right ·side [L hand; C a position of highest honor beside the king]. The Father has given the Holy Spirit to Jesus as he promised. So Jesus has poured out that Spirit, and this is what you now see and hear. 34 David was not the one who ·was lifted up [went up; ascended] to heaven, but he said:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit by me at my right ·side [L hand; v. 33],
35 until I ·put your enemies under your control [L make your enemies a footstool for your feet; Ps. 110:1].”’
36 “·So [Therefore], all the ·people [L house] of Israel should know this ·truly [with certainty]: God has made Jesus—the man you ·nailed to the cross [crucified]—both Lord and ·Christ [Messiah].”

37 When the people heard this, they ·felt guilty [were deeply distressed; L were cut/pierced to the heart] and asked Peter and the other apostles, “What shall we do, ·brothers [L men, brothers]?”

38 Peter said to them, “·Change your hearts and lives [Repent] and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 [L For] This promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away [C both in space and time; may refer to Gentiles and/or Jews scattered outside the land of Israel]. It is for everyone the Lord our God calls to himself [Joel 2:32].” "

Isn't Peter teaching there that obedience begins with doing what Jesus said to do in order to change a persons heart and life?
No; obedience begins with the hearing of Faith.
He lighteth every man that cometh into the world. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Showing the work of the Law on their hearts! So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: (manifested in the flesh; our flesh) that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts and mouths) is the end of (the letter of the ) law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts, mouths and minds) of God.

(Rom 1:20; 2:4,15 10:6-8,4,17)
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
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#44
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:5-8 KJV)
You need to study the Bible so you will learn what the verses mean before you quote them.

You didn't make any points or comments, all you did was quote some scriptures way out of their content.

Let me educate you about the different types of sinners. There are sinners and there are sinners, one sins because that's all he ever does and knows nothing else. The Christian falls into sin unwittingly and repents and his sin is instantly forgiven and it's not counted as sin. A Christian cannot sin as a sinner, because his past, present and all future sins were forgiven before he ever committed them.

So none of these verses apply to a Christian, they were written to false Christians and sinners.

I'm glad to have enlightened you today, and I accept you gratitude in advance
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#45
No; obedience begins with the hearing of Faith.
He lighteth every man that cometh into the world. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Showing the work of the Law on their hearts! So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: (manifested in the flesh; our flesh) that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts and mouths) is the end of (the letter of the ) law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts, mouths and minds) of God.

(Rom 1:20; 2:4,15 10:6-8,4,17)
This sums up an elect person perfectly well, but none of it applies to the reprobate. They cannot hear the Gospel so they will never have faith.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
#46
You need; Let me educate you
I see you post for strife too. How about we forgo all the pomposity and accusations and just post what it is you think is in error and why?

You didn't make any points or comments, all you did was quote some scriptures way out of their content.
The verses say what they say.
And Your comment did not prove anything. You posted your opinion with out dealing with the context of the verses quoted.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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#47
I see you post for strife too. How about we forgo all the pomposity and accusations and just post what it is you think is in error and why?

The verses say what they say.
And Your comment did not prove anything. You posted your opinion with out dealing with the context of the verses quoted.
Sorry, I thought you would have realized that I believe those verses all apply to unbelievers. They're not directed at believers
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#48
The only function of the law for the Christian is a reminder that we cannot keep it. We continue to sin and break the law every single day, because we know it's impossible to keep so we don't worry when we break it.

We were forgiven for breaking the law in our past, present and future. We will remain sinners until we die, but have been forgiven and justified and made righteous so our salvation is 100% guaranteed and we have nothing to worry about.
Romans 8:4 says that those who walk by the spirit will do the righteous work of the law, not continue in sin every day. The fact that you think walking righteously is unattainable and are not concerned about that, reveals the lawlessness and bankruptcy of the doctrine you follow. Christ does not wink at sin and will spit people out of his mouth who comfort themselves in the false hope that Christ is a perpetual mulligan that automatically covers a carelessly lived life.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#49
You need to study the Bible so you will learn what the verses mean before you quote them.

You didn't make any points or comments, all you did was quote some scriptures way out of their content.

Let me educate you about the different types of sinners. There are sinners and there are sinners, one sins because that's all he ever does and knows nothing else. The Christian falls into sin unwittingly and repents and his sin is instantly forgiven and it's not counted as sin. A Christian cannot sin as a sinner, because his past, present and all future sins were forgiven before he ever committed them.

So none of these verses apply to a Christian, they were written to false Christians and sinners.

I'm glad to have enlightened you today, and I accept you gratitude in advance
The Christian falls into sin "unwittingly", is an attempt to dismiss responsibility. Sin is a choice, especially when we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. Why else would the apostle Paul say to not use our members for unrighteousness, but for righteousness? Or John says that if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, or that he says such things so that they sin not? Why else? Sin is a choice, an expression of the will.

Now, I do not say this in ignorance to old habits dying hard, or the need to renew the mind. Yet, to say that Christians do not sin willingly (or wittingly) is inherently false. They need God to continue to sanctify them, as He develops their character.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
503
113
54
HBG. Pa. USA
#50
No; obedience begins with the hearing of Faith.
He lighteth every man that cometh into the world. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Showing the work of the Law on their hearts! So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: (manifested in the flesh; our flesh) that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
For Christ (the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts and mouths) is the end of (the letter of the ) law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word (Christ; the word; the Law; HIS Commandments in our hearts, mouths and minds) of God.

(Rom 1:20; 2:4,15 10:6-8,4,17)
This sums up an elect person perfectly well, but none of it applies to the reprobate. They cannot hear the Gospel so they will never have faith.
Ah....
Some to honor some to dishonor.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:19-21 KJV)

In these verses there is an alternative; a choice. Apparently some do not have to remain a vessel of dishonor.

For GOD is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance.

But is all; all.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:20-24 KJV)

There is no commentary needed. Apparently Pharaoh and others not mentioned did not and do not have a choice.

Quite the quandary in regards to believing in eternal hell fire and GOD being just if some were made for dishonor.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#51
1. Sinners can not obey the Gospel because they are dead in their sin, so if you need to force a yes or no out of that then the answer is NO, THEY DON'T HAVE TO OBEY THE GOSPEL to be saved.
2. God did the obeying for all of the saved and we will simply glide into heaven, if you have to have it in those terms
If you are following this, you will never find your way.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
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#52
If you live under the law as Christ told us, you live under the law as God the Father told it. Christ said He did not change anything, but whatever was told of Him in scripture He fulfilled it exactly as it was told to us. The people who lived at the same time Christ lived with us as a man did not believe that but we know it is true. Christ did not end anything, Christ and the blessings we have from the law is alive and well. People who believe that and live by the guidance of the law have inner peace and many blessings right here where we live.

Secular, worldly people go to self help books to read about what we know of God. They don't realize that what they are told to do for successful living is what the Christians who knows to study the law understand.

The curse of the law is that if we break it we die. If we live under grace we may go to Christ for salvation. Salvation from our sins requires repentance.

You said:
Christ did not end anything
But the Bible says: " Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4). It also says: "By abolishing in His flesh the Law with it's commandments and regulations." (Ephesians 2:15).

The Law was nailed to the cross; "Having canceled the written code, with it's regulations that was against us, and that stood opposed to us; He (God) took it away, nailing it to the cross. " (Colossians 2:14)

You said:
If you live under the law as Christ told us, you live under the law as God the Father told it.
But the Bible says: "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the Law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the Law." (Romans 3:27-28)

We, in fact, have been released from the Law: " But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the Law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6)

The Bible puts the final nail in the coffin by saying: "For sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

The Bible also says no one can keep the Law, not even the Jews to whom it was given. (Galatians 6:13)

If you insist on living under the Law you place yourself under a curse. (Galatians 3:10-11)
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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#53
Romans 8:4 says that those who walk by the spirit will do the righteous work of the law, not continue in sin every day. The fact that you think walking righteously is unattainable and are not concerned about that, reveals the lawlessness and bankruptcy of the doctrine you follow. Christ does not wink at sin and will spit people out of his mouth who comfort themselves in the false hope that Christ is a perpetual mulligan that automatically covers a carelessly lived life.
Only a genuine fool and a false Christian thinks they can do the righteous work of the law.

I actually know the truth about your kind, Satan has deceived you and made you rely on your self righteousness. He deceives you into believing you are living a sinless life and Christ didn't die for your sins.

The Bible is very clear that you have been deceived, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You are in for a rude shock when you realize that you are yet in your sin.

Only Satan has the power to convince false Christians that they can live a sinless life
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#54
Only a genuine fool and a false Christian thinks they can do the righteous work of the law.

I actually know the truth about your kind, Satan has deceived you and made you rely on your self righteousness. He deceives you into believing you are living a sinless life and Christ didn't die for your sins.

The Bible is very clear that you have been deceived, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You are in for a rude shock when you realize that you are yet in your sin.

Only Satan has the power to convince false Christians that they can live a sinless life
Are you a troll? I'm sorry, but you seem to be a character. You are taking a belief and taking it to the extreme. You are attempting to describe a legalist, but in so doing, you are excusing your sin for their admirable though misled endeavor (of perfection through the flesh, instead of the Spirit and God's grace).

Why do you make an excuse for your sin, though God's grace be sufficient, instead of repenting and seeing that you actually don't have to commit that sin? I'm not saying that you should express the sin that you might be bound to for all to see, but maybe consider asking the Lord for victory, instead of excusing it as a propensity that you must fulfill?

God's word says to not be deceived, the righteous commit righteousness. Why do you act bound to what God's word says to reckon yourself dead to? Does not God sanctify, and chastise you? For some there are leaps and bounds, and yet for others it is a long journey (depending upon their willingness to surrender). Give it to God.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#55
The Christian falls into sin "unwittingly", is an attempt to dismiss responsibility. Sin is a choice, especially when we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. Why else would the apostle Paul say to not use our members for unrighteousness, but for righteousness? Or John says that if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, or that he says such things so that they sin not? Why else? Sin is a choice, an expression of the will.

Now, I do not say this in ignorance to old habits dying hard, or the need to renew the mind. Yet, to say that Christians do not sin willingly (or wittingly) is inherently false. They need God to continue to sanctify them, as He develops their character.
The Bible says that we will continue to sin until the day we die, that includes every single Christian on the planet. You can say it's by choice, but the fact remains that you dear Sir will continue to sin until you drop dead.

Remember what Paul said, I do what I would not and what I would do that I do not. He saw another law in his members, it was sin. He didn't like it but he couldn't stop it.

Sure the Holy Spirit helps us to avoid temptation and resist sin, but we still sin and only a liar would deny it.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#57
Are you a troll? I'm sorry, but you seem to be a character. You are taking a belief and taking it to the extreme. You are attempting to describe a legalist, but in so doing, you are excusing your sin for their admirable though misled endeavor (of perfection through the flesh, instead of the Spirit and God's grace).

Why do you make an excuse for your sin, though God's grace be sufficient, instead of repenting and seeing that you actually don't have to commit that sin? I'm not saying that you should express the sin that you might be bound to for all to see, but maybe consider asking the Lord for victory, instead of excusing it as a propensity that you must fulfill?

God's word says to not be deceived, the righteous commit righteousness. Why do you act bound to what God's word says to reckon yourself dead to? Does not God sanctify, and chastise you? For some there are leaps and bounds, and yet for others it is a long journey (depending upon their willingness to surrender). Give it to God.
I'm only being honest and nobody likes honesty because it exposes them for who they are.

People like Joel Osten will tell you, you're a great sinless person and lead you straight to hell.

You must accept the truth that you will continue to sin until God strikes you dead, then you will have to give an account of your life.

Only a false Christian will surrender to sin and give themselves to serve sin, a believer will resit it as much as they can but they will still continue to sin. I can't believe so called Christians can be so deluded by their own sense of grandeur to believe they are somehow holy.

Your not holy, your a fallen sinner and a beggar.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#59
I do believe we will be held accountable for our beliefs, if we haven't used our god given ability to embrace the truth it will cost us something. So I do believe it's very important to get it right, so we can live our lives in the truth of the Gospel.
This last paragraph you wrote is true.

But it contradicts things you claim you believe, that God forces people to believe. If God forces people to believe, how can He hold those who don’t accountable?