THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[EleventhHour]

Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..."

I think this is the point the OP is trying to make albeit not very successfully.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually what it seems to me @EleventhHour is with his constant use of Matthew 5:48 that there is more to it than that and it is possible that there is an agenda rooted in something, perhaps bitterness. Although I do appreciate you trying to see eye to eye with the poster.

I know that when I've tried to wrap my mind around a scripture in my flesh it can get to this level.

Essentially this verse could present an impossible command, "be ye perfect ..." Any sin is imperfection, therefore this standard is impossible. Any time you get low or down or feel like giving in, you strap your pack (cross) and dig in and war against the flesh in a lifelong struggle toward that perfection. How can one have assurance if they fall short of perfection?

"...for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" This verse doesn't say all do sin, merely all have. Can I draw from that sentence that it is indeed possible and that there is a way to lead a sinless life and be "perfect"?

You see how you can take a lot of "troubling" lines of thinking down on many unproductive trails...and indeed I've lived out "brute force righteousness" but by doing that personally, I end up being unable to contain other things and still fail when I do it in myself and the process of letting the Lord work his righteous in me by following him, abiding, picking up my cross is a bit harder to discern, and it something like watching your hair grow in a mirror. The less you focus on it, the more you seem to notice...you can definitely see it reflected in others at times...or at least I have and I hope others have had a similar experience.


Personally, this particular verse (Mt 5:48) has been accusatory at times based of the above line of thinking. So I would ask at present @Sudakar is what does perfection mean in context with this verse?

Where are you going? No offense, but questions with very little interaction with the responses looks like baiting. If not, you seem to be desirous of driving a point home but consider that the Lord has used many different ways of shining a light on our understanding and yet hiding it from some at the same time. Perhaps a different method?

In regard to faith and how "assurance" works. Faith and human sight (that which can be seen/observed/divined/experienced) are integrated in a unique equation that is impossible for me to describe. Some days I have doubts, and others I don't. There's
a lot more to be said for doubt both intellectual doubts and our own spirit's doubting, but I've been rather long in posts lately, so I'll just skip that unless someone would find it useful.

I don't have a lot of the perfection verse figured out, except that perfect love seems to be the context. I think we most certainly are vessels at times for the Lord's perfect love displayed either to us privately, or to others by many ways. So if his love be in us, we can walk according to that perfect love and perhaps in his sight that is perfection.

Of COURSE that said within context of being a sheep following the good shepherd

I have to wonder if this behavior of his is baiting as well. Any and all refutations, answers, correction offered are ignored.

But I digress. Any person misusing Matthew 5:48 to mean something we achieve, do, work, accomplish is out on a limb. It is apparent the meaning of the text in light of the Gospel is that to be perfect is to be in Christ. This is the message of Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, the entirety of the Gospel itself throughout the OT and NT. To be in Christ is the end all, it means the person is eternally saved, secure, cannot be lost; note Ephesians 1. We are made perfect in him.

The instruction to be perfect given to believers goes along with the sanctifying work of God, they, those truly converted, desire this to be so. Note Hebrews 12:14; Philippians 2:11-13; 1 John 3:3; John 17:19; 2 Corinthians 3:18ff.

 

[John146]

All scripture is from God to mankind.

• All things Jesus spoke were from God (John 3:34).
• The apostle Paul wrote the commandments of the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2).
• For whatsoever things were written in the past were written for our learning (Romans 15:4).
• We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (Ephesians 2:20).
• All scripture is given by inspiration of God...that the man of God may be perfect (2 Timothy 3:16).

I am positive these scriptures will not faze you since you have likely had your conscience seared with the iron of Dispensational Theology.

All Scripture is from God, but not we are not to obey all Scripture. Know the intended audience, know the intended doctrine.

 

[EleventhHour]

You have both guys writings to view. @preacher4truth gave you one, i the other.

I will give it my best shot and get back to you

 

[Funkus]

It's slightly ridiculous the obsession over the whole faith vs works question, what does it matter? why is it so important?
i want to turn this question around and ask what is the point, i don't think there is one. it's navel gazing. move on and forget about it

 

[Blain]

It's slightly ridiculous the obsession over the whole faith vs works question, what does it matter? why is it so important?
i want to turn this question around and ask what is the point, i don't think there is one. it's navel gazing. move on and forget about it

Interestingly enough it is a very heated debate even though the answer seems easily understood in my opinion.
But it happens to be one of the most debated topics in the bible.

 

[Sudakar]

Look at King David. He not only commits adultery, but also murder. When Nathan confronts him, he repents. We never hear of him doing those things again. So his changing of mind(repentance) was followed with a change of actions, no more adultery or murder.

Do you mean to say he ceased sinning according to mathew 5:48?

 

[Sudakar]

Hello Sudakar, I just saw your thread and have not read through it yet, so I apologize if this has already been posted here (since this Q & A is from John MacArthur's broadcast ministry at, www.gty.org, and directly concerns the quote you gave us in the OP from the 1st edition of his book, I thought it was important to post).

Does John MacArthur teach salvation by works in his book Hard to Believe?​

One paragraph in the first edition of Hard to Believe contained a glaring error that has the potential to mislead readers about the book’s whole intent. The problematic passage is the opening paragraph of chapter 6 (page 93), which seems to suggest that salvation is the fruit of godly living. The truth is exactly the opposite.​

​

The error was inadvertently introduced into the manuscript in the late stages of the editorial process, when (in order to simplify the book) four chapters were deleted from the original manuscript and one of the remaining chapters was severely abridged. John MacArthur approved the abridgments.​

​

Apparently, however, in an effort to make a new transition that would smooth over the deletions, an editor involved in the process made significant revisions to the opening of chapter 6. Unfortunately, that change was not submitted to John for approval. We believe the error was an oversight, and not anyone’s deliberate attempt to tamper with the book’s theology. The result, however, severely muddled the message of the book.​

​

A revision was sent to the publisher for future editions of the book. In all subsequent printings, here is how the opening paragraph of chapter six reads (revisions are in bold):​

​

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak,​

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reveals whether our faith is authentic."​

​

~https://www.gty.org/library/Questions/QA508 ​

~Deut

Have you done works according to mathew 5:48 in order to authenticate your faith?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do you mean to say he ceased sinning according to mathew 5:48?

Nope.

 

[Sudakar]

According to my Greek interlinear it's a verb in the imperative mood, looking at Mark 1:15 it says repent and believe the gospel. In other places it stands alone "And they went out, and preached that men should repent"

I thought you were gonna leave it there then?

Ephesians2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 

2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do you mean to say he ceased sinning according to mathew 5:48?

Have you ceased from sinning? You are the proverbial broken record.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Ephesians2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 

2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And?

 

[Sudakar]

I agree. Coming to believe, laying down my opposition to God, turned my world upside down

Assurance of salvation comes not from trusting in one's change of mind but from faith in the unchanging grace of God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Assurance of salvation comes not from trusting in one's change of mind but from faith in the unchanging grace of God.

So?

 

[Sudakar]

It's slightly ridiculous the obsession over the whole faith vs works question, what does it matter? why is it so important?
i want to turn this question around and ask what is the point, i don't think there is one. it's navel gazing. move on and forget about it

One who trusts in works to prove he has saving faith isn't saved. So it's important.

 

[Sudakar]

Nope.

So where is the evidence of saving faith? Does saving faith not cease sinning?

 

[Sudakar]

Have you ceased from sinning? You are the proverbial broken record.

I don't trust in my ceasing to sin to prove my saving faith. But you trust in in lowering the standard of lordship to suit your sinfulness and lust in order to prove falsely that you have saving faith. That's absurd and hypocrisy.

 

[Sudakar]

So?

So ls is unbiblical.

 

[Sudakar]

If you’re an alcoholic and change your mind about it, but remain in a drunken stupor, then have you really changed your mind? Nope.

Regardless of what habits you stop doing your mind is absolutely unchanged with reference to mathew 5:48 before God. Don't deceive yourself and others!!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So where is the evidence of saving faith? Does saving faith not cease sinning?

Nope.