the lie that Jesus ministry was law

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#61
Just a reminder to all those who consistently misinterpret what our Lord is refering to when He mentions His yoke:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

In another gospel Jesus also makes mention of the burden the hypocrites weigh upon us contrasting their unnecessary burdening to His teaching.

He is speaking plainly here about learning from Him directly, an invitation from our God, Himself, to learn from God, amen.........good news is always good.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#62
matthew 4: 17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”


matthew 4:23 "Jesus went throughout Galilee, TEACHING in their synagogues, PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM, and healing every disease and sickness among the people"


john 1:17 "For THE LAW was given THROUGH MOSES; GRACE AND TRUTH came THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.


matthew 5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM, and he began to TEACH THEM."


Just to make the point, because false ideas have put the theory that Jesus was teaching the mosaic law, therefore His teachings arent part of the true Gospel. believe the scripture.


exodus 20:13 "you shall not murder" ( the law through moses)


MATTHEW 5: 21-22 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ BUT I TELL YOU (the gospel through Jesus) that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subject to judgment...."


exodus 20:14 " you shall not commit adultery" ( the law through moses)


matthew 5:27-28 "“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ BUT I TELL YOU ( the gospel through Jesus) that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."


deuteronomy 24:1 ""When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, ( the law through moses)


matthew 5: 31-32 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. ( the gospel through Jesus Christ)


numbers 30:2 "If a man makes a vow to the LORD, or takes an oath to bind himself with a binding obligation, he shall not violate his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. ( the law through moses)


matthew 5:33-35 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ BUT I TELL YOU, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool;"


deuteronomy 1921 ":Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." ( the law through moses)


matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. BUT I TELL YOU,( the gospel through Jesus Christ) do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, TURN TO THEM THE OTHER CHEEK also. "




Just a few examples, in order to omit the validity of Jesus ministry, things like the sermon on the mount or the countless parables and plain lessons taught by the Lord above all, there is a theory Jesus taught the mosaic law, therefore His words, teachings commands in the 4 gospels simply dont apply to His church, that was only for those present with Him, it was law, and therefore the gospel is only His death and resurrection. a theory that basically disregards Jesus ministry, and actually makes it a bad thing to be a " red letter believer" meaning you believe that Jesus gospel is the true and correect doctrine, of HIS CHURCH, HIS BODY, HIS BRIDE. clearly looking at just these few examples, no one should be able to hold to the idea that Jesus was teaching the law, simply because he is saying " you heard the law...it said this, BUT I TELL YOU this other thing. Jesus teachings are the foundation opf any correct doctrine and applies eternally to His people.


forgiveness ? matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." this is WHAT JESUS SAYS ABOUT FORGIVENESS.....he teaches it also in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (matthew 18:21-35 ) in fact the entire ministry of Jesus rests on this principle, which IS NOT LAW NOR DOES IT RESEMBLE LAW.


luke 6:37- 38 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”


the Law teaches that we are judged according to strict written laws, by one another, we are condemned by 2 or three witnesses and stoned by the people of the community, forgiveness is not based on us forgiving others, but on sacrifice rather than Mercy. the law was Gods word given through a mediator Moses, the Gospel is Gods word given through the Only MEDIATOR Jesus, His Son. The law was given by Gods word to moses, then moses word to the people. he was its mediator. the gospel was given by Gods word through Jesus, the eternal mediator between God and man. there is nothing in scripture to even suggest omittals or devalue or de authorizing the gospel ministry opf Jesus Christ, that is outright herecy, whether we call it grace, new dispensations, whatever the reasoning its false, Jesus ministry is eternally valid and the authority over His body, bride, the Church belongs to Jesus.


false doctrines work hard to omit Jesus words, because Jesus words are salvation. Just as Gods word was Life in the garden. Dont be decieved by someone telling you Jesus gospel was him teaching law and therefore doesnt apply, its false. Jesus taught the kingdom of God, just like his apostles including paul. james, peter and john who said this

2 john 1:9 "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

Jesus taught the way of Life, dont let " grace" omit the truth.
*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to followjesus again.*
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#63
learn to rightly divide the word of truth bro! you begin to do that by first of all distinguishing between what was said to Israel and what was said to the church( the new creation).

It will be a waste of time responding to the same things on this tread again since it has been dealt with on other treads!

So anyone who wants to understand that Jesus was a minister of circumcision( Jews) and that most of what He taught was the law, should kindly go back and read related treads on this forum.
With posts like this it's no wonder some are against women preachers.:)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#64
learn to rightly divide the word of truth bro! you begin to do that by first of all distinguishing between what was said to Israel and what was said to the church( the new creation).
I don’t think God speaks in a vacuum as if he was a respecter of persons. All scripture is God breathed and profitable when seeking after the approval of the Spirit of Christ ,our teacher, comforter and guide . .

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

Rightly dividing it in respect to distinguishing between and outward Jew (Israelite) in respect to the flesh as that seen that could never profit. Or an inward Jew as that not seen which today are named by God as Christian His bride, the church. She is made of Jew and Gentile alike making no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying the hearts of all men by work of His faith according to His labor of love that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure(an imputed righteousness not of us. ).

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#65
Just a reminder to all those who consistently misinterpret what our Lord is refering to when He mentions His yoke:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

In another gospel Jesus also makes mention of the burden the hypocrites weigh upon us contrasting their unnecessary burdening to His teaching.

He is speaking plainly here about learning from Him directly, an invitation from our God, Himself, to learn from God, amen.........good news is always good.
Exactly. Jesus calls us to Himself, not to the Law.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#66
Philippines 2:13
King James Version(KJV)

13.)For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
+++
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version(KJV)

8.)For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9.)Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10.)For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I agree with each of the passages you posted. How does scripture define grace?

Also, would you agree that we have the same flesh as adam?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#67
Philippines 2:13
King James Version(KJV)

13.)For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
+++
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version(KJV)

8.)For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9.)Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10.)For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I agree with each of the passages you posted. How does scripture define grace?

Also, would you agree that we have the same flesh as adam?
First you ask,what does the branch do WITH the vine,and now you ask,what Is grace as defined by scripture.

I would like to know YOUR thoughts on this.:)
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,758
715
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#68
First you ask,what does the branch do WITH the vine,and now you ask,what Is grace as defined by scripture.

I would like to know YOUR thoughts on this.:)
:) Seems like a natural train of thought, I think, to ask my next questions. You've shared scripture with me to answer a question I gave to you, which is perfectly fine, I've done it many times. So based on your previous answer I'm asking, how does scripture define grace? We let the bible define its own terms right? So for the edification of readers here, if "by grace we are saved through faith" how does scripture define grace? It's a pretty important idea so folks here need to understand what it is in order to build on proper doctrine.

As to my second question; a simple yes or no would suffice.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#69
:) Seems like a natural train of thought, I think, to ask my next questions. You've shared scripture with me to answer a question I gave to you, which is perfectly fine, I've done it many times. So based on your previous answer I'm asking, how does scripture define grace? We let the bible define its own terms right? So for the edification of readers here, if "by grace we are saved through faith" how does scripture define grace? It's a pretty important idea so folks here need to understand what it is in order to build on proper doctrine.

As to my second question; a simple yes or no would suffice.
You're putting all this on me and saying the readers need to know what I think,but what about them knowing what your thoughts on grace Is?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#71
Romans 11:6-10
King James Version(KJV)

6.)And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7.)What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8.)According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9.)And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10.)Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,758
715
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#72
You're putting all this on me and saying the readers need to know what I think,but what about them knowing what your thoughts on grace Is?

Are you trying to set me up?:eek:

No it's not a setup. I never asked what you think grace is or what I think grace is. I asked what scripture says grace is, for the reader's edification, since you answered my original question with scripture referencing grace...that's all. Actually the burden is on scripture and not you if we think about it.


So far it's true that:


1. We can bear no fruit of our own (i.e. without the vine)


2. When we abide in the vine, we become God's workmanship


3. That by Grace through faith we are saved


4. So my question was "what does scripture say grace is?"



Would you agree Titus 2:11-14 defines what grace is? In light of the topic of this thread, what does Christ's grace do?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#73
Would you agree Titus 2:11-14 defines what grace is? In light of the topic of this thread, what does Christ's grace do?
With the OP In mind,JESUS magnified the law to the Inward man, grace made It possible for man to have a relationship with GOD.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
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#74
No it's not a setup. I never asked what you think grace is or what I think grace is. I asked what scripture says grace is, for the reader's edification, since you answered my original question with scripture referencing grace...that's all. Actually the burden is on scripture and not you if we think about it.


So far it's true that:


1. We can bear no fruit of our own (i.e. without the vine)


2. When we abide in the vine, we become God's workmanship


3. That by Grace through faith we are saved


4. So my question was "what does scripture say grace is?"



Would you agree Titus 2:11-14 defines what grace is? In light of the topic of this thread, what does Christ's grace do?
Titus 2 doesn't define Grace.

Titus 2 shows what the outcome of Grace is.

Important distinction, right?

Romans 11:6-7 along with Ephesians 2:8-9 is more the actual definition of Grace.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#75
Would you agree Titus 2:11-14 defines what grace is? In light of the topic of this thread, what does Christ's grace do?
if your going to use Titus, Titus 3 especially vs 5 is the definition of Grace paul gave to Titus.

ie, Titus 3: 5 would tell us How titus 2: 11-14 is fulfilled.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#76
if your going to use Titus, Titus 3 especially vs 5 is the definition of Grace paul gave to Titus.

ie, Titus 3: 5 would tell us How titus 2: 11-14 is fulfilled.

Right on the mark. Grace is defined as us doing nothing. Titus 2:11 shows the outcome or fruit of having grace in our lives.

If anything is done by ourselves - it is something owed and not grace at all Paul says.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

This little graphic shows it all. It is Jesus only and with Him comes the grace to have His life being lived in and through us to a hurt and dying world.



 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#78
Titus 2 doesn't define Grace.

Titus 2 shows what the outcome of Grace is.

Important distinction, right?

Romans 11:6-7 along with Ephesians 2:8-9 is more the actual definition of Grace.
It is an important distinction. But I think you have your terms mixed up. An "outcome" is a conclusion usually setup by a conjunction like "if" and "by" or "through", which establishes a cause and effect.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



And again...


Romans 11:6-7
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.



The above passages you share describe outcome of grace. Meanwhile Titus directly describes grace itself.


Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Clearly you know this to be true, so I'm not sure why the pretense here.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,758
715
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#79
if your going to use Titus, Titus 3 especially vs 5 is the definition of Grace paul gave to Titus.

ie, Titus 3: 5 would tell us How titus 2: 11-14 is fulfilled.
Yes let's share more of the passage...

Titus 3:1-5
3 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Context, context, context.

What appeared? The kindness and love of God.

How? Not by works of righteousness we have done but according to his mercy.

So now that we know how we received God's grace, would you agree that Titus 2:11-14 (which precedes Titus 3) is scripture's definition of grace itself?
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#80
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you,can a person that hasn't been born of the Spirit of GOD be obedient enough that GOD will accept them?

Are you saying,a person has to be obedient with their own will before GOD will save them or are you saying,a person has to be obedient to faith/believe the word of GOD?

Im saying when a person accepts Christ, He becomes LORD and savior. He becomes the Christ to that person, the teacher, king, Lord. obedience comes from Faith. Faith comes through Gods word. when were born were sinners by blood, being born again is what comes through believing the gospel. a "born again " person is not who they were, not a sinner, but a child of God. from that point forward we follow the Lord, the principles, teachings His ministry found in matthew , mark, luke and John. He teaches things such as " forgive, and you will be forgiven, do not forgive and you will not be forgiven" He teaches people to Love truly. if you Love someone, you will forgive them, you will give them grace, turn the other cheek, if you love your neighbor AS YOURSELF then when they are in need, you will meet the need as if it were your own. clother the poor, feed the hungry do what isaiah 58 teaches, and realize Jesus teaches it also. seek after Jesus the one who died, repent press forward, find out what God is pleased with and do those things, and reject the desires of the old creation, the sinner. Im saying pretty simply if someone believes in Jesus, they will simply take His word as the Lords Word.


Jesus is the one who teaches His followers, to actually learn and apply His ministry to our Lives. Jesus is the one who says " calling me Lord wont save you, doing Gods will, will save you" Jesus taught what He taught with all authority, God will never remove the authoprity of Christ, one day Jesus will hand the kingdom back to God the father, But Hois authority, is that of Our Lord, who died to save us. im simply saying " why does it offend a christian doctrine to say look! Jesus gospel ACTUALLY says we have to apply His word to life, or we are deceiving ourselves, thats a constant theme from matthew to revelation. faith is not just saying i believe, action comes from genuine faith. consider peter

"Lord, if it is you tell me and i will come ...Jesus " It is I come" peter jumps out of the boat and walks on water with Jesus, Peter walked by faith, until he looked at the waves...Jesus saved Him from drowning, but peter was still walking by faith when he called out " save me Lord" faith is to keep fixed, to be set firmly, commited fully. God doesnt care if we make mistakes....He cares if were not even trying to obey Him tho. I know the gog doctrine hates that part, But God doesnt teach us to not put effort into Jesus, doesnt tell us to not follow, just say it or anything it teaches the opposite of that. it teaches to make Jesus the most authoritative part of our Lives, it is right when a person lives to honor the price that Gods Son paid for us is the point. to live with God as an afterthought, to live life for our wants, our own needs, own desoires, thoughts, to rule our own Lives, to change Gods word rather than change ourselves to meet Gods word the same as Jesus spoke His word........He is the same then, now, and forever. my main message in Life " Learn what Jesus teaches his followers, TO ACTUALLY DO, and then put your heart into it fully. to o that every christian who is able needs tp stayu in the word daily