The Logic of Gay Marriage Equality
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A
The issue is recurring because an ever growing number of people are rejecting the morality of the moral lawgiver (e.g. God) yet enough people still do recognize the morality of the moral lawgiver that a tug-of-war has developed.
Much of our body of laws is based on Judeo-Christian morality. You're flat wrong to deny it. And stating a body of people that engage in immoral activity aren't going away is not a valid justification for declaring their immorality moral or therefore legal though you can do so if you can find the power to do so.
With enough power, those that reject the moral lawgiver for their own statistical normality have even taught bad is good and good is bad and that there is no God and persecuted everyone that believed differently as state atheists did in the 20th century a form of political government that resulted in the democide of 262 million people (ref: Rummel) and the destruction of a large body of Christian artifacts and archeological treasures.
If you had actually read the thread, you would see the Christian position and the logic behind their position IS clearly stated. Since it IS clearly stated,you either did not read all the posts in the thread or you did not discern it afterwards.
Your position appears to be that of a secularist statistical normalist... a position that leads away from God and his morality into deception and finally degeneration as history reveals and exactly as we argued throughout this thread.
Much of our body of laws is based on Judeo-Christian morality. You're flat wrong to deny it. And stating a body of people that engage in immoral activity aren't going away is not a valid justification for declaring their immorality moral or therefore legal though you can do so if you can find the power to do so.
With enough power, those that reject the moral lawgiver for their own statistical normality have even taught bad is good and good is bad and that there is no God and persecuted everyone that believed differently as state atheists did in the 20th century a form of political government that resulted in the democide of 262 million people (ref: Rummel) and the destruction of a large body of Christian artifacts and archeological treasures.
If you had actually read the thread, you would see the Christian position and the logic behind their position IS clearly stated. Since it IS clearly stated,you either did not read all the posts in the thread or you did not discern it afterwards.
Your position appears to be that of a secularist statistical normalist... a position that leads away from God and his morality into deception and finally degeneration as history reveals and exactly as we argued throughout this thread.
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S
Thats because there are a ton of tiny "Bible" churches. The Catholic Church usually builds large churches to serve one large group of people.
The Church of England is in a state of falling away, but the Catholic Church in England is actually quite strong and growing.
Not necessarily true. My church has the largest and most vibrant youth group and population of young people in town, and yes it is Catholic.
Once again thats really not true. I hear so many kids in High School bashing fundamentalist "Bible" churches all the time, and they aren't secular kids most of them are Christian (Baptist in particular).
No offense, but in this situation you really don't know what you're saying. Keep in mind i also live in the Bible Belt.
The Church of England is in a state of falling away, but the Catholic Church in England is actually quite strong and growing.
Not necessarily true. My church has the largest and most vibrant youth group and population of young people in town, and yes it is Catholic.
Once again thats really not true. I hear so many kids in High School bashing fundamentalist "Bible" churches all the time, and they aren't secular kids most of them are Christian (Baptist in particular).
No offense, but in this situation you really don't know what you're saying. Keep in mind i also live in the Bible Belt.
C
God decreed four social structures: family, faith, economy, and government. Each of these were given certain limitations and powers. It is the governments role to enforce such moral codes as are neccesary for the survival and prosparity of society and to protect those who have been placed under its authority. The issue of homosexuality is a moral one. The question is whether it is for God alone to judge, or whether it falls within the purview of government. Is homosexuality harmful to society? Is there a reasonable cause for the government to interfere? Given that homosexuals rank high in every negative statistic, from mental health to suicide to violence to physical health, I believe so. Does that mean banning homosexuality? I'm not so sure. I do not believe that homosexuality should be taught in public schools as a normative lifestyle nor should it be given special rights or protection. Homosexuals should not be allowed to recruit from the young. Concerning marriage, it is a family structure established by God. It is not the marriage license that makes you married, but the covenant that is made with God. Government does not establish marriage, only recognizes it and recognises certain legal rights and responsibilities. As such, the government does not have the right to change it's definition. If the government declared that two men or two women can marry, it would no more a marriage than if I was to marry a rock.
Do you really not think that the hate and discrimination that the lgbt community goes through most likely one of the reasons they have higher rates of depression, suicide etc? Most homosexuals do not try and influence others to be gay, the ones that do represent them badly.
Letting lgbt people get married is not a special right. They are just asking to be treated as human, which we are.
Letting lgbt people get married is not a special right. They are just asking to be treated as human, which we are.
P
Matthew, I don't know if this speaks directly to your point or not, but though I do not favor a theocracy, in which church and state are united, in my view Biblical principles still must interface with our social institutions, and part of the church's role, individually and corporately, is as a prophetic voice to the culture.
The root issue is whether we remain a nation that honors God. We certainly did
when we were founded. Congress opened with a three hour prayer meeting; its
first major legislation, the Northwest Ordinance, authorized using the Bible as
a textbook in public schools. There was a wall of separation between church and
state, in that there was no official denomination (thank God - though at the
time there still were official denominations in some of the individual states),
but religion had a honored, preeminent place in the public square.
If I didn't have the word I can see how the humanist argument would sound good.
But the word and the Spirit give discernment that enables us to separate loving
the sinner from hating the sin, something the world can't understand.
Unfortunately, we as a nation have been choosing to abandon God, if not spit in
His face. There are consequences to that, and they are not going to be fun. But
I believe that the challenge they will present will be an opportunity for great
revival in the church.
By the way, every one of those parallels you draw in your initial post (incest,
bestiality, pederasty, etc) have their advocates among humanist leaders. It goes
all the way back to the Margarete Sanger crowd, and includes Kinsey with his
fraudulent reports on human sexuality.
The root issue is whether we remain a nation that honors God. We certainly did
when we were founded. Congress opened with a three hour prayer meeting; its
first major legislation, the Northwest Ordinance, authorized using the Bible as
a textbook in public schools. There was a wall of separation between church and
state, in that there was no official denomination (thank God - though at the
time there still were official denominations in some of the individual states),
but religion had a honored, preeminent place in the public square.
If I didn't have the word I can see how the humanist argument would sound good.
But the word and the Spirit give discernment that enables us to separate loving
the sinner from hating the sin, something the world can't understand.
Unfortunately, we as a nation have been choosing to abandon God, if not spit in
His face. There are consequences to that, and they are not going to be fun. But
I believe that the challenge they will present will be an opportunity for great
revival in the church.
By the way, every one of those parallels you draw in your initial post (incest,
bestiality, pederasty, etc) have their advocates among humanist leaders. It goes
all the way back to the Margarete Sanger crowd, and includes Kinsey with his
fraudulent reports on human sexuality.
C
I mean that it is intrisic to the lifestyle, the natural result of homosexuality. Understand that while I believe that the government must protect us from others, it cannot protect us from ourselves. That is why I do not think that banning homosexuality is correct, but that certain steps are appropriate in their role as the protector of society and individuals.
A
That plays a minor role only. Most authentic Christians understand they have a scriptural God-given responsibility to love these people while resisting their immorality, grab for political power, and the deception/propaganda they are under and expouse. I show love to the homosexuals in my circles but they understand what I believe and why I believe it.
Secular society accepts their lifestyle and sides with them in their fight for the equality of a grossly immoral position to be viewed exactly as moral as a marriage between a man and a woman as Shard (a new believer) argued for. I believe he's representative of the secular position.
So the real reason they suffer from such high rates isn't because of hate and discrimination but rather because of the very immorality they practice and the deception they are under. They have cut themselves off from the moral lawgiver and the fruits of a holy life. That is the reason for the lack of peace, self-control, etc...
But you completely missed the obvious and parroted the deception that isn't the reason. We resist the evil of the evildoer while loving the evildoer. The real problem with the evildoer is their evil. There are spiritual, psychological, and even physical problems to living a life of gross immorality apart from the moral lawgiver (e.g. God)! '
Secular society accepts their lifestyle and sides with them in their fight for the equality of a grossly immoral position to be viewed exactly as moral as a marriage between a man and a woman as Shard (a new believer) argued for. I believe he's representative of the secular position.
So the real reason they suffer from such high rates isn't because of hate and discrimination but rather because of the very immorality they practice and the deception they are under. They have cut themselves off from the moral lawgiver and the fruits of a holy life. That is the reason for the lack of peace, self-control, etc...
But you completely missed the obvious and parroted the deception that isn't the reason. We resist the evil of the evildoer while loving the evildoer. The real problem with the evildoer is their evil. There are spiritual, psychological, and even physical problems to living a life of gross immorality apart from the moral lawgiver (e.g. God)! '